What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Hilopsilo]

At least they have a sense of humor, they I would hope they'd have more hope if they read this thread. Did you share this thread with them?

I briefly explained whats going on, that I have access to two samples that exhibit vastly different effects RELIABLY, and I'd like to send them in for a deeper analysis.

I think they got the idea, and I don't think its that they outright don't believe me, they just don't have the resources which is understandable.

I could reply with the thread, wouldn't hurt, but I don't think they have the time nor patience to sift through nearly 50 pages of whats got a lot of filler and unrelated stuff. A document summarizing the findings (without all the random banter/arguing in the thread) would probably have a higher chance of getting looked at.

Guess we're at a bit of a roadblock here.

But anyways, don't give up hope guys, the good stuff IS still out there and is still being manufactured, just a matter of chance that you come across it. Keep an eye out for MDMA that passes all tests and is in the form of scentless crystals that are so clear you can see through them.

At first I thought posting this would break some rules, but I think its fine. If it does, give me a slap on the hand:

I went ahead and scoured listings looking for pictures/description that match the magic MDMA. I was only able to find a handful amongst thousands of listings that featured full, clear crystals. The one consistent aspect amongst these listings were that they were NOT from NL and not listed as dutch MDMA. I messaged these listings asking for more information.

I got a reply and had a conversation with the most promising listing. They informed me that the vast majority of MDMA being sold is dutch MDMA, whether its sent from there or just resold domestically (duh, i guess). I asked them what they meant when they said their product was not "Checkpoint MDMA" (which was mentioned on another hopeful listing), and they said that pretty much all dutch MDMA listed is produced by someone that goes by "Checkpoint", they feel that stuff is "dutch dirt", and that their is product is the real deal and produced domestically in the U.S.

As well, they confirmed their product is completely scentless, which matches up with magic MDMA.

But I did forgot to ask what precursor they believe was used

I read back those pages you mentioned psy. Something I'm wondering, can MDMA created from precursor that isn't safrole still have that smell? The not-so-great stuff I've got in a bag, something like 300mg loose and it absolutely reeks of sass.

Is there any evidence to believe the minute contaminant would have an effect really? Or rather, "impede" the high? For example, the not-so-great MDMA tested as 96%. So that leaves 4mg per 100mg to be leftover precursor, which is really not that much relatively speaking.

(I posted to r/drugs my experience in which it became clear to me thats somethign going on with some MDMA, and people are crawling out of the woodwork saying they experience the same thing. Even people who started rolling as late as 2015, they've noticed some stuff just doesn't explode, like a dud firework) https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/9bznyk/some_mdma_is_fooling_mass_spectrometers/

 

[indigoaura]

International Energy Control responded to my initial query with them and expressed interest in our project. They told me they were short staffed in the summer, and to give them more time. After that, I never heard from them again. I will send another email and see if I can get any further with them.

https://energycontrol-international.org

 

[Hilopsilo]

I couldn't find this discussed anywhere in here, but has anyone considered the possibility of MDEA? It doesn't seem that even a complete reagent kit can differentiate MDEA from MDMA (which is quite alarming tbh), in fact I can't even find that much info on it other than that its "basically watered down MDMA" (which would fit the bill).

Even on ecstasy data I don't see any reports listing MDEA, are they even able to tell it apart if they're not looking for it?

EDIT: nevermind, i didn't realized MDE=MDEA

 

[indigoaura]

Is there any evidence to believe the minute contaminant would have an effect really? Or rather, "impede" the high? For example, the not-so-great MDMA tested as 96%. So that leaves 4mg per 100mg to be leftover precursor, which is really not that much relatively speaking.

Correct me if I am wrong, but hypothetically, if a contaminant crossed the blood brain barrier first, and had a higher affinity for serotonin receptors than MDMA, it could basically block the whole experience. Isn't this the theory behind rolling on Prozac? Since the Prozac binds to the receptors, the MDMA cannot bind to the receptors. Even if this contaminant only blocked SOME of the receptors, it would explain why the experience is so dulled. Also, would explain why some things (like jaw movement) are still occurring and more noticeable. Perhaps dopamine activity is still occurring at the typical rate.

 

[psy997]

I have no doubt that even 1% or less of an obtrusive substance could significantly impact the experience like we're seeing here. These are very delicate and complex biochemical systems we're dealing with here, our brains and nervous systems...

 

[G_Chem]

^^^Completely agree psy.

First off awesome work Hilo, that thread on Reddit really got some discussion going.. I don't remember if you did but link this thread in there as I see redditors have been asking. This movement is growing stronger!

I look at this in a positive way even if we don't initially discover why.. I think it's good people finally realize there are differences between batches due to changes in synthesis. If this mentality gets widespread it will eventually lead to new discoveries and answers to the why. The current/past mentality was no good and led to lots of subpar product but this recent discussion seems to be changing the tides and funny enough the reemergence of good product in certain areas correlates well with this thread..

I'll write more later as lot has been said but wish you guys the best with talking to testing agencies, at the moment their are best hope. I'll edit in more as I can..

Edit1- What that vendor is referring to with "Checkpoint" MDMA is a producer that puts out a lot of ecstasy and mdma. Typically they mark their pills with a CP on the back. Teslas were some of their most famous over the years and are distinguished with glitter and by being Uv reactive. These pills mainly flood Southern California in the US, although I always thought they may have been a domestic US lab but am not TOO familiar with them..

Checkpoint ecstasy is regarded by many as the best too, but of course those who are saying this have been taking mdma for only a few years.

With that said I'm somewhat doubtful of this vendors claims that ALL mdma is from the CP crew. Maybe a lot but there's plenty of others like DD (Don't Die) and G6 crews which do fairly well with ecstasy production in the US. (Mind you SoCal is the epicenter for these crews. Back in my day Mint crew were the gods from Chi.) I was able to find a G6 press in the Midwest recently so these other crews make enough product to go places..

I do think that vendor is on to something though. It seems a lot of Dutch mdma has this similar look (opaque, amber colored rocks that to my trained eye appear similar picture to picture) and could be coming from one super lab.

I'm curious to be trying my G6 press too because it will help me to determine if people in SoCal have any clue what good MDXX should feel like lol. Sometimes I wonder when I see redditors posting eye pictures of their "dilated" pupils which don't appear all that dilated to me.. If you saw a picture of my eyes while rolling you'd know I was on one without a doubt.

Edit2- Found this while hanging in Reddit. This guy has been dosing since the 90's and only recently (past 4-5yrs) has he felt a change which seems to correlate well with the change in synthesis..

""I totally agree and have questioned the same theory. From what I've seen online and researches is that dosing 80 to 100mg of MDMA has always been considered the common dose period. I've been using mdma in both forms, pills and crystals since the late 90s. I have definitely noticed that over the past 5 years my experience has drastically changed when I roll. I only roll an average of 4 to 5 times a year max. I have always dosed with half a pill and usually redose the other half within an hour depending on the initial come up and how intense the effects are. It used to be a perfect way to dose, my anxiety would only be caused from the simple thought of rolling in general and would happen before dosing at all. I remember when I'd start to blow up, my anxiety would be replaced with pure euphoria and increased energy. Now I almost always have anxiety after dosing and although it does subside, there isn't that burst of energy, I don't have feelings of empathy, or feel free to socialize with others. This also could be due to my environment. Over the past few years I've rolled at music festivals hoping to feel the familiar effects of the past where I'd want to dance, socialize and feel free from any anxiety. But instead I get a lot of paranoia, and more anxiety. So I wonder is this due to higher initial doses, or does my environment have that much influence on the way I roll. I am actually attending a Festival in a few weeks and I plan on only taking a third of a 180 mg pill. I'm hoping this will have a positive effect.""

Be back later with more
-GC

 

[G_Chem]

Ok Hilo your Reddit thread may have struck gold.. Now before I continue note I'm not super familiar with what I'm about to discuss.

One redditor commented this..

""So how could the exact same chemical differ from one batch to another, ...well there ain't many ways, but one possibility is the isotopes of the atoms. Maybe one batch has a few hydrogen atoms on each molecule that has a neutron (heavy hydrogen). Regardless if that's the case here, does anybody know if heavy hydrogen would change the pharmacology of a drug?""


After looking it seems small changes in the synthesis can create different isotopes of MDMA.

Reading a paper on isotopes it appears this could effect physiological aspects such as weight/dosage, crystalline structure, appearance, as well as toxicity and pharmacology.

The problem is isotopes from my VERY little reading have even less research on them than polymorphs. But I'll keep looking..

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

Sorry for triple posting but a few more things..

MDEA is no longer around much these days. It was more a problem in the mid 90's to early 2000's simply because it was left legal longer than MDMA or MDA in certain countries and people produced large amounts which were stockpiled. MDEA can be differentiated with GCMS as well.

I agree Indigo, and believe in your case this is what is happening. I'd be willing to bet the MDP2Pol has a higher affinity and can displace the MDMA or in some ways mess with the MDMA to negate the experience. It wouldn't take much either of certain substances.

That's something people never take into account. Just because a substance has no activity by itself doesn't mean it won't alter or negate the effect of a substance that does. CBD and NMT are two that come to mind with little activity themselves but can greatly alter or even negate other closely related drugs.

-GC

 

[Hilopsilo]

I had a chance to catch up with a friend, we'll call him K, who I haven't really seen since that night with the MagicDMA. I sort of asked him to just recount how he felt about the two nights, without probing him with specific questions that might affect his answers, some things he said totally resonate with this thread:

He said that the first night where we took the not so great MDMA, he barely got high at all, period (versus me, I got incredibly high, but not in the right way exactly). He also said that one of the people in our group, we'll call him E, instead took the last 100mg of some MDMA that he got from a vendor back in ~2015 and actually ended up puking (which is historically consistent for E when he takes good MDMA). I didn't realize at the time that E took different MDMA that night, and I do remember a specific conversation I had with him and noticing how large his pupils were and how he was noticeably more upbeat than the rest of us (he actually gave me one of the best compliments I've ever received in my life lol!)

K told me he spoke with Ch and S the next day, both of who we didn't even see or interact with that night, they both said they barely rolled form taking 200mg of the not-so-great MDMA and just went to bed early (and they were outwardly upset about this).

K also said that he thought E was the only person in our crew with dilated pupils. He was almost certain that none of us had very dilated pupils that night, which totally fits with whats being said here.

K also said that he noticed the MagicDMA took way longer to hit, at least an hour, which is consistent with what I felt and users here have felt. I remember us both questioning if it was even going to work that night since it was taking so long, then boom.

K has probably rolled more times than I, and said that he has experienced the MagicDMA at least 3 or 4 times, one of the times was from an "Orange Tesla" pressed pill in which he said he actually got too high for while that time, the absolute highest he has ever been from MDMA (those also had massive doses though).

We both agreed it wasn't purely a matter of potency, we feel even taking 3 or 4 points of the not-so-great MDMA wouldn't have made a difference, it was just different nature of high fundamentally. Still a roll definitely, but a shadow of what it should be.

Neither of us know shit about chemistry, but we're both a bit skeptical about the contaminants thing but I guess its possible. To me, it makes most sense that the molecule is altered in some way, like its not binding in the brain right or not being uptaken by the brain right. This is purely based off of the way it made us feel. From the not-so-great MDMA none of got any bad comedown or hangover, just disappointing "dud firework" effects (although neither of us have ever gotten any negative effects from MDMA in the form of a comedown or hangover, period). No afterglow from the not-so-great MDMA, just a sad realization that we had maybe lost the magic, which was transformed into a burning desire to find out what the FUCK is going after taking the MagicDMA 2 nights later.

For the contaminants/precursor theory we need to confirm that the confirmed leftover precursor is active at such a low dose. It would just seem too coincidental that leftover precursor disrupts the action of MDMA in such a specific way.

On another note, reading back I realized that LeJunk said their good stuff is also a clear crystal. To me thats the only safe-ish bet right now.

EDIT: https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/mouse/ Watch the "ecstasy" module, probably the most intuitive explanation of how MDMA works I've ever seen. Maybe it'll spark some ideas! again, I know nothing, but if the MDMA molecule is altered slightly, maybe its not accepted by the receptor properly? Gets stuck somewhere weird? Also in the LSD module, it says there are several types of serotonin receptors in the brain, maybe the bad MDMA is acting on the wrong receptor or set of receptors?

Also, I sent the thread to people who were interested on the reddit post. Didn't want to bring the entire reddit banter (i.e. the people suggesting the first night i had serotonin syndrome taking LSD as well, and THATS why the MDMA didn't work...)

 

[Glubrahnum]

MDEA can be differentiated with GCMS as well.

...by Transmissive IR and Raman spectroscopy, too.
Because MDEA is not an isobary of MDMA, it can be easily differentiated by GC/MS, too

Hilopsilo could send his two wildly varying samples for proffesional NMR analysis e.g. to http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm , without asking the lab for spectrum interpretation, so they do not realize what they will have been analyzing.
NMR is pretty accurate but it cannot resolve enantiomers.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Didn't want to bring the entire reddit banter (i.e. the people suggesting the first night i had serotonin syndrome taking LSD as well, and THATS why the MDMA didn't work...)

At least give the poor unfortunate souls some gold nuggets from this thread, such as this:
The Post# 14272986

 

[Hilopsilo]

...by Transmissive IR and Raman spectroscopy, too.
Because MDEA is not an isobary of MDMA, it can be easily differentiated by GC/MS, too

Hilopsilo could send his two wildly varying samples for proffesional NMR analysis e.g. to http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm , without asking the lab for spectrum interpretation, so they do not realize what they will have been analyzing.
NMR is pretty accurate but it cannot resolve enantiomers.

So basically make it so they don't realize i've sent them illegal drugs lol? Having a hard time telling how much it would cost for the two samples and the info we want.

At least give the poor unfortunate souls some gold nuggets from this thread, such as this:
The Post# 14272986

Ok I missed this post, thats very interesting and definitely seems like the most likely theory here, I feel like thats on the money. I've sent this to my friends who are also interested in this, and experienced it with me.

EDIT: Eww at those 3 cathinones.

 

[Glubrahnum]

So basically make it so they don't realize i've sent them illegal drugs lol? Having a hard time telling how much it would cost for the two samples and the info we want.

The low cost option would be:
$56 per sample for: "Standard 1H Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample not limited (>2 mg))"
and
$25 per sample for: "FTIR-ATR"
...but note that the latter might need a 2mm crystal.

The mid-cost option would be:
$256 per sample for: "Standard 13C Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample is not limited (>300 mg))"
...but note that >300 mg is a big sample.
$80 per sample for: "Standard 1H-13C DEPT (No analysis/interpretation of data)"

Once you have the 1H and/or 13C NMR as well as IR spectra, you can post them publicly for the myriad experts to interpret...

P.S.
Catecholamine is a benign substance that is similar, so you might declare it as such in case anyone asks.

 

[G_Chem]

I will say as well my best experiences have been of clear crystal. Although I've had some good experiences lately off product that was a bit amber as well.. Up until recently most all of it has been scentless or the most minute safrole smell upon cracking open a crystal, I should also note I get told all the time that the MDMA I come across is "the best they've ever had" but always wrote that off as people just getting shitty drugs other than MDMA..

Well Hilo, this MehDMA (lol I like it) you have seems to correlate well with the crap product others have complained of. In fact it sounds like you have a prime specimen, hang onto that for sure.

I also have to say I believe the U.K. Culture of dosing large amounts of MDMA comes from the fact it's garbage like what you have Hilo. There's no way people could be "boshing" more than 250mg of the good MDMA in one go unless they've been doing it for years.

In regards to the isotope thing.. I was reading about isotopes of other substances. One is called "heavy water" which is an isotope of regular water/h2o. It's interesting in that it doesn't act like normal water, seedlings can't germinate in heavy water among other things.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to theorize that an isotope of MDMA could be the problem here considering we are talking about 96% purity.

With that said, I'm not so sure I'd completely write off contaminants. For instance adding just a few percentage of CBD to pure THC will alter it. 96% THC with 4% CBD will feel different than straight THC despite the fact CBD has little psychoactivity by itself. Same with adding a little bit of NMT to DMT. This second example I have personal experience with and love DMT with a small percentage of NMT.

I'd like to hear from someone that knows more about isotopes, cuz I don't know shit..

One more thing, that Orange Tesla may have been a CP (checkpoint) press. They are highly regarded and Teslas are known to be the best. They've also been around for many years and have many copycats (this very well could be a copycat too.) Copycats these days are often still MDMA but many times are underdosed from the originals.

-GC

 

[Hilopsilo]

The low cost option would be:
$56 per sample for: "Standard 1H Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample not limited (>2 mg))"
and
$25 per sample for: "FTIR-ATR"
...but note that the latter might need a 2mm crystal.

The mid-cost option would be:
$256 per sample for: "Standard 13C Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample is not limited (>300 mg))"
...but note that >300 mg is a big sample.
$80 per sample for: "Standard 1H-13C DEPT (No analysis/interpretation of data)"

Once you have the 1H and/or 13C NMR as well as IR spectra, you can post them publicly for the myriad experts to interpret...

P.S.
Catecholamine is a benign substance that is similar, so you might declare it as such in case anyone asks.

So in any case, how much of each sample do I need to provide? Plenty of the MehDMA, but I only have a really small sample of the MagicDMA (probably no more than 20mg), I can try to get more but I'm not sure if any is left now.

EDIT: confirmed there is more of the good

And G_Chem, about the dosing thing, to my dismay I found that on that last night someone in our group who was given 2 x 100mg of the MagicDMA, who was supposed to give one to her partner, decided to take both herself and gave her partner her leftover 100mg of the crappy stuff from the first night. I just found this out and really bums me out that she did this and I don't know why, since I made it clear to everyone i didn't want them taking the MehDMA and thats why I sought out new stuff.

And once again, that person that got stuck with the MehDMA again was the first to call it a night.

She seemed just as high as the rest of us, but I guess she took twice as much. So people can and do take more than they need (or in this case, deserve) I imagine there is probably diminishing returns past a certain point. For me, the 100mg felt like it was giving me everything my brain possibly could, I can't imagine being higher than that.

 

[Glubrahnum]

In regards to the isotope thing.. I was reading about isotopes of other substances. One is called "heavy water" which is an isotope of regular water/h2o. It's interesting in that it doesn't act like normal water, seedlings can't germinate in heavy water among other things.

I'd like to hear from someone that knows more about isotopes, cuz I don't know shit..

First of all, not all isotopes are radioactive.
Theoretically, isotopes are identical chemically, that is: they form the same chemical bonds, however practically the hydrogen bonds are a little weaker than deuterium bonds. The most difference occurs in the physical properties, especially density and mass, so mass spectrometers are ideally suited to detecting this difference.

The largest difference between non-radioactive isotopes occurs between hydrogen and deuterium. Watch these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUVzb0fzHsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyK6kPi8k78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXHVqId0MQc

It is worth noting that heavy water can be heavy because it has been made out of heavy hydrogen (deuterium) and/or heavy oxygen ( O18 ). It is possible to make water with tritium, too...but such compound is radioactive.

It is very difficult to alter the isotope ratio found in nature. There are almost no chemical reactions that do that. Practical isotope enrichment or separation processes use some form of physical mechanism, e.g.: centrifuging, calutron, gas diffusion, electrolysis.

Because of this, it is highly unlikely that any MDMA manufacturing process would alter the natural isotope ratios. If there was such a chemical mechanism then its product would be worth much more than the MDMA itself and it would be immediately detected by even the crudest mass spectrometer.

 

[Glubrahnum]

So in any case, how much of each sample do I need to provide? Plenty of the MehDMA, but I only have a really small sample of the MagicDMA (probably no more than 20mg), I can try to get more but I'm not sure if any is left now.

Every lab has different sample requirements, so you should contact them and ask about the minimum mass, size and form (solid, liquid)
IMO the H1 NMR should not require more than 5mg.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Every lab has different sample requirements, so you should contact them and ask about the minimum mass, size and form (solid, liquid)
IMO the H1 NMR should not require more than 5mg.

Great, I'll inquire on there website, figure out the cost and maybe try to crowdfund that or something.

Skyped with my friend T today, who I haven't seen since that weekend, and he had pretty much the same things to say as K. He ended up taking another 100mg on the very first night of the MehDMA after the first 100mg just didn't do the trick, which unsurprisingly didn't "fix" it, just amplified the given set of effects. He said he was very high, but just not in the right way. We both agreed we're not really interested in taking MDMA period unless its the MagicDMA as its such a letdown when its not. Which once again leads me to this idea that its not a matter of potency, as its different set of subjective effects; the intensity itself isn't simply increased or decreased.

Here's a reply to the thread I made on reddit about the 23 substances, this person seems knowledgable and I encouraged them to chime in over here:

"Just by looking at these I'm gonna say none of them are active with similar effects in a similar dose range and produce the same test kit reactions. There's also the problem of precursor traces that are found in the final product and synthesizing something other than MDMA will also leave a different side-product "fingerprint". I'm going to rule out a conspiracy by forensic analysts, that's just... no.

I've read through that thread a bit and how people describe the differences, and from my experience some rolls are more like one type and some are more like the other type, even if it is the same batch. Tolerance is the most prominent factor in this. Most of my rolls are a mix of the two, with effects from either variant; I wouldn't say I ever had the bad stuff and I've first taken MDMA in 2010, a point in time where the good stuff supposedly didn't exist anymore. But I've built up a massive tolerance in the past, so I know what it's like when you take 500mg with little effects, and it sounds pretty much like how the bad MDMA is described.
I would be careful going by personal experiences of old-timers who've taken it 20+ years: MDMA isn't particularly known for its benign pharmacology and cumulative lifetime doses are correlated with cognitive impairment and neurotoxicity. When people say good MDMA stopped being produced in [year] it seems more like that's when they built enough tolerance for effects to noticeably diminish, and project this into "bad" MDMA.

So I don't know why the differences, but I definitely think you're taking the same MDMA as ever."

 

[Glubrahnum]

Tolerance is the most prominent factor in this...
I've built up a massive tolerance in the past, so I know what it's like when you take 500mg with little effects, and it sounds pretty much like how the bad MDMA is described.

A typical "knee jerk" response.
You should counter this with the citation of the experiment I have described in this post:
Post# 14220371

 

[PlayHard]

weighed and took 100mg of the clearer sample given to me around 9:10pm. started to come up slowly around 9:50pm. will report back most likely either later or tomorrow with my verdict i was going to weigh up an additional 50mg of "amber/yellow" safrole mdma incase i felt like redosing but wont mix the two this time round.

been awhile since i posted on here or even logged on. nice to see convo still flowing away nicely, got a few pages to read