What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Jmoda]

.

So, based on that data, we should see an increase in MDMA use at live music events in the United States rather than a decrease

This is actually not necessarily true, in fact, I would argue the opposite is true because the piece of the equation that is missing is the number and size of events. If all else were held equal, ie, the number and size of shows was the same ten years ago vs today, then yes, I would definitely expect a higher % of people at a given show to be rolling, however, as Im sure you are aware, with the astronomical explosion of edm shows and festivals in the past decade, I would certainly expect a smaller % as that growth has more than likely outpaced the growth in MDMA users.

If you think about it, lets say back in the day there was only a show to go to once every three months. Everyone is going to gear up and roll at that one event. Now there are shows, festivals, clubs, and concerts available way more often. Most people are not going to roll at all of them and a lot of when someone rolls will be dispersed across all the offerings so now at the other shows one might choose to drink or do k or trip, etc. Its also duration, there are tons of festivals that have expanded to 2 or even 3 days, even that extension will chop up the rolling crowd. Do i roll on day 1 and drink on day 2? Do i trip on day 1 and roll on day 2?

This means on average, any given show you go to will have a much smaller % of people rolling.

The 660k last-month users vs the 450k decade prior is a 50% increase. I would bet the house that there are well above 100% more show-days than a decade prior.

 

[indigoaura]

Ah, I'm sure every lab is very inquisitive about what their wholesalers are doing with each batch to make sure that it goes to the right location.

Considering that purification steps often occur after synthesis is complete, it would not surprise me if labs sell different tiers of product for different prices. Perhaps those who are importing product are also having to deal with shipping and transportation costs, and they opt for the lower cost product, whereas local distributors are more likely to purchase the highly purified product due to not having overhead shipping costs. That does not seem illogical to me.

 

[Negi]

Perhaps those who are importing product are also having to deal with shipping and transportation costs, and they opt for the lower cost product, whereas local distributors are more likely to purchase the highly purified product due to not having overhead shipping costs. That does not seem illogical to me.

That's the opposite of what normally happens. If you have transportation costs you want to maximize the value you transport per kg. If you are paying $100 per kilo to have something smuggled (hypothetical price), why would you want 240g of that to be useless impurities? If you need to save costs you can legally buy cutting products at the destination for cents per gram.

 

[user666]

"Apparently" on MDMA? Are you asking them what they have taken?

I do not know whether you do this intentionaly or subconsciously, but do try to self-critically analyze your response to "Biscuit;s" post:

I do not observe the youngsters out there on the dancefloor, who are apparently also on MDMA

His statement clearly indicates that he does not observe the typical effects of MDMA in these youngsters.
The validity of this observation does not require the knowledge what drug they have taken. It is enough that whatever they have taken does not make them behave like people on MDMA in EDM events.

At a large commercial music festival alcohol is going to be the most common drug taken.

This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.

Such statements demonstrate your tendency against the premise of this thread despite indeed being the most prolific paper quoter here.

I think it would be helpful to keep the thread focused on actual MDMA experiences rather than the fact that music and nightlife trends change over the years.

I also think that people's behavior at EDMs/Raves (Rock concerts not included) in only a circumstantial evidence.
Personally, I would like to see a double blind study involving sending suspected Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA doses to random MDMA-naive people for evaluation and receivng a feedback from them in the form of questionnaires, eye photos and blood test results.

What specific analysis methods would you accept for this? As you mentioned above, "highly advanced government forensic laboratories" have been examining MDMA for well over 20 years and haven't published anything about a change.

I already answered this question and it was quite recently.
Certainly, I would accept an analysis method that does not rely on smashing unknown molecules into pieces and then analyzing their fragments. Also, not separating different molecules into fractions, before trying to identify them, is unacceptable IMO.

This is what would convince me:
Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more non-fragmenting molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: ¹³C-NMR, ¹H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.

Heavy metal content analysis (with e.g. ICP-OES/MS) would be a cherry on top.

 

[user666]

My only issue is that the original post by @Le Junk suggests that there is NO worthy MDMA being manufactured today. This is just not true.

Of course there is a worthy MDMA manufactured today and IMO there is more and more of it as the PMK Glycidate stashes are becoming exhausted.
This is a recent change and it increases the Magic MDMA/Meh MDMA ratio in the marketplace, which makes it more and more difficult to solve the puzzle posed by this thread.

 

[user666]

Very simple. The higher purity product stays at home while the lesser purity product shipped to places like the U.K.
Obviously your gonna want to keep your home country stocked with prime product

I don't think this is a case of patriotism but caring about your own brand - when the manufacurer also has its own domestic distribution network.

 

[indigoaura]

Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more non-fragmenting molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: 13C-NMR, 1H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.

Heavy metal content analysis (with e.g. ICP-OES/MS) would be a cherry on top.

Here is the question...

Are there any labs operating anywhere in the world that would perform these tests on samples in a manner that would be safe for the person submitting the samples?

At this point, we have multiple participants in the thread who have access to both magic and meh samples. We have many other participants in the thread who have access to one type of sample or another.

I am willing to pay the lab directly so that the cost would not fall on whoever is submitting the sample, but I need a lab to work with.

And it needs to be a reliable, professional, discreet lab that would provide copies of the results.

I have tried to find a lab to work with, but have not had any luck. If we could identify a lab we could work with, then maybe this conversation could progress in a data driven manner.

 

[Jmoda]

This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.

This is just not true at all. Statisically, with more edm events and shows, it dilutes the average number of rollers at a given event because the rate of events has outpaced the rate of MDMA users. I know tons of people that go to edm festivals and shows that do not use MDMA, but you know what they do do? They drink. Think about a 2-3 day festival, im definitely not rolling all days, what i am doing on a non-rolling day is drinking. By that virtue alone, you have diluted the number of people rolling.

Music is not all repetitive house/techno (which i do love....), but look at all the pop and build-a-drop music in the edm space now. Chainsmokers? Marshmello? Cookie cutter bullshit that appeals to masses....the masses of which drink and dont do molly often, if ever.

In the true house/techno space, ketamine has also taken over. Plenty of my friends rarely roll anymore because ketamine has taken over as their drug of choice for those warehouse techno parties.

My point is that, unless you 100% know what each and every single person is on...its not very prudent to use such examples...and in fact, only detracts from the conversation, quite frankly, like the pupil dilation point that keeps coming up.

 

[indigoaura]

This event because the rate of events has outpaced the rate of MDMA users. I know tons of people that go to edm festivals and shows that do not use MDMA, but you know what they do do? They drink. Think about a 2-3 day festival, im definitely not rolling all days, what i am doing on a non-rolling day is drinking. By that virtue alone, you have diluted the number of people rolling.

Music is not all repetitive house/techno (which i do love....), but look at all the pop and build-a-drop music in the edm space now. Chainsmokers? Marshmello? Cookie cutter bullshit that appeals to masses....the masses of which drink and dont do molly often, if ever.

In the true house/techno space, ketamine has also taken over. Plenty of my friends rarely roll anymore because ketamine has taken over as their drug of choice for those warehouse techno parties.

My point is that, unless you 100% know what each and every single person is on...its not very prudent to use such examples...and in fact, only detracts from the conversation, quite frankly, like the pupil dilation point that keeps coming up.

1. https://drugabuse.com/featured/substance-use-at-live-music-events/

This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.

At the EDM event I attended, 25% of attendees did not display visual characteristics of MDMA use.

This is just one study, and it does not take into account survey participant's willingness to admit to illegal activities.

2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2

Although this data shows past month usage rather than current usage, other studies indicate that the majority of MDMA use occurs at live music events. So, if 73.9% of live music attendees used MDMA in the past month, it seems possible that the 25% estimate of the previous study is low.

Huge difference between those two statistics, but of course, they are different demographics and the studies are set up differently. Even if we go with the low percentage estimate that 25% of attendees at an EDM event take MDMA, that data does not line up with my observations at EDM events. @Biscuit would you say that 25% of EDM attendees appear to be using MDMA based on your observations?

Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.

IMO, what detracts from the conversation are the pages and pages of debate that ensue over a simple observation. Biscuit shared his observation of the EDM scene and how he feels that lines up with his observations of MDMA in general. It is simple, observational data. It is not a hard data point. No, he is not going person to person and interviewing them about whether they took MDMA, how much MDMA, whether they are on SSRIs etc. But it is observational data that is related to the conversation.

As for pupil dilation...that is objectively observable information. Not sure why you would say that including information about pupils is not relevant, especially since research supports pupil dilation as a key characteristic of MDMA usage. I agree that endlessly debating the people on reddit seems somewhat pointless. However, since Negi was bringing up the reddit posters, it needed to be addressed.

 

[indigoaura]

@user666

Personally, I would like to see a double blind study involving sending suspected Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA doses to random MDMA-naive people for evaluation and receivng a feedback from them in the form of questionnaires, eye photos and blood test results.

I would like to see this data too. However, for ethical reasons, a study like that would be several steps down the line I think. A study like this would involve giving the participants contaminants with unknown safety profiles.

First, we need to identify if there actually is anything observably/physically different about meh samples compared to magic samples.

I think researchers would need to examine the correlation (if any) between user submitted samples and user experience. If it turned out that a high percentage of atypical and subpar user experiences correlated to a specific impurity profile, then those impurities could be examined for safety and activity. After that, you could proceed with double blind studies where MDMA-naive people received samples.

I could see researches pursuing a study that aimed to examine whether synthesis byproducts had an effect on the end user experience. That would be a great starting point.

Maybe we should identify similar studies and reach out to researchers who have previously taken on this kind of work.

 

[user666]

I know a lab in Eastern Europe that will do HPLC fractionalization from a solvent of your choice without identifying the fractions.
This is useful because the MDMA fraction can be discarded afterwards and the remainder can be sent to just about any lab for identification, without fear of the breweries' agents.

What I am missing are virgin Guinea Pigs to reliably differentiate between Meh samples and Magic samples.

 

[user666]

Maybe we should identify similar studies and reach out to researchers who have previously taken on this kind of work.

I am certain that forensic labs have done such analyses already but they used this data to determine the synth route instead of the effects that the synth byproducts have on users. ...something that Negi overlooks.

 

[Jmoda]

1. https://drugabuse.com/featured/substance-use-at-live-music-events/

This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.

At the EDM event I attended, 25% of attendees did not display visual characteristics of MDMA use.

This is just one study, and it does not take into account survey participant's willingness to admit to illegal activities.

2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2

Although this data shows past month usage rather than current usage, other studies indicate that the majority of MDMA use occurs at live music events. So, if 73.9% of live music attendees used MDMA in the past month, it seems possible that the 25% estimate of the previous study is low.

Huge difference between those two statistics, but of course, they are different demographics and the studies are set up differently. Even if we go with the low percentage estimate that 25% of attendees at an EDM event take MDMA, that data does not line up with my observations at EDM events. @Biscuit would you say that 25% of EDM attendees appear to be using MDMA based on your observations?

Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.

IMO, what detracts from the conversation are the pages and pages of debate that ensue over a simple observation. Biscuit shared his observation of the EDM scene and how he feels that lines up with his observations of MDMA in general. It is simple, observational data. It is not a hard data point. No, he is not going person to person and interviewing them about whether they took MDMA, how much MDMA, whether they are on SSRIs etc. But it is observational data that is related to the conversation.

As for pupil dilation...that is objectively observable information. Not sure why you would say that including information about pupils is not relevant, especially since research supports pupil dilation as a key characteristic of MDMA usage. I agree that endlessly debating the people on reddit seems somewhat pointless. However, since Negi was bringing up the reddit posters, it needed to be addressed.

There was some study done a few years ago and the conclusion was that something like 85% of seized "molly" at an ultra music festival one year did not even have trace amounts of MDMA, so i think that even that 25% number of people reporting to have used is way lower.

As for the pupil dilation piece, this, in my opinion, is pointless because there are clearly "meh" product/experiences that cause pupil dilation...

 

[Digger909]

Four years after the thread began...

do we have an answer?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Four years after the thread began...

do we have an answer?

Nope...

 

[Jmoda]

Le Junk has magic product still available to him. Seems like the best solution is for everyone to sample some : P

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I think @TripSitterNZ ought to share his shit for the good of the thread...

 

[G_Chem]

That's the opposite of what normally happens. If you have transportation costs you want to maximize the value you transport per kg. If you are paying $100 per kilo to have something smuggled (hypothetical price), why would you want 240g of that to be useless impurities? If you need to save costs you can legally buy cutting products at the destination for cents per gram.

Because that’s just not how it works in the illegal drug smuggling world... In theory your right, but look at all the impure drugs which get moved internationally.

Black Tar Heroin being a fine example, it could be purified much more creating less volume to transport, but its easier/cheaper to make as is and risk a higher volume of product.

If the producers save enough on that 24% cutting corners then it doesn’t matter if they pay a bit more in volume transportation costs.

Again it likely takes good amount of effort to get high purity product which one is more likely to do for their domestic scene over folks in other countries.

-GC

 

[Negi]

This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.

You would be wrong:

This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.

They don't seem to have posted the exact questions they asked, but from the wording I think it's more likely that 25% of people had at least once taken MDMA at an EDM music event, not that 25% of people are taking it every time they go to an EDM music event.

2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2

The most commonly used drug in the last 12 months was ecstasy ( 73.9% )

These are the actual numbers you want:

In keeping with the aforementioned high risk-taking behaviour seen among young festival goers, the frequency of ecstasy use was also relatively high; with 12.9% reporting use every 2 weeks or more and 32.1% reporting monthly use.

I think this might also be of interest to the thread:

51% of people stick with 200mg or less as their dose per session.

 

[Jmoda]

I dont think its any secret that festival crowds have changed for the worse as things get more mainstream. Ask someone to compare ultra, edc, burning man, demf/movement from ten years ago to now.

The answers will all heavily tilt towards the same, the crowds were way better back in the day. Thats because the people who know and respect the culture were the majority of ravers, now its flooded with your everyday lets just get fucked up to get fucked up Joeblow.

(Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with getting fucked up to blow off some steam, but theres definitely a difference in level of respect and research between people in the scene then vs now, im sure even more so as you go back even further)

Using crowd as an argument for magic v not, I think is horribly flawed ....and just like there is still magic out there, I can tell you there are still shows and roll sessions happening where I guarantee you, you will find the love and dancing that you seek, you just have to know where to look.

Or maybe for those of you that still have access to the magic...the onus is on you. You have an all important part of the equation....