No. For a regular user like me there is magicmdma and mehmdma. I don't care about the chemical composition. It has to work well and it doesn't work, that's all, people who write that mdma is mdma have never had contact with either meh or magic.
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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
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No. For a regular user like me there is magicmdma and mehmdma. I don't care about the chemical composition. It has to work well and it doesn't work, that's all, people who write that mdma is mdma have never had contact with either meh or magic.
ThreePointCircle
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Quick question to you chem experts: From an inexperienced doing at home point of view, what's the better option for trying to purify:
1) Open column chromatography
2) Flash chromatography
3) Recrystallisation
Looking at videos and instructions online, (1) seems easiest as long as I'm patient and copy well. The materials don't seem too costly or complicated.
(2) has the advantage that @vash445 has demonstrated a before and after NMR that went for odd to more or less reference MDMA
(3) seems a bit like a black art so maybe harder to get right (thanks for the run-down @vecktor in an earlier post).
It looks like the biggest issue with the open column chromatography is handling the silica and being patient.
1) Open column chromatography
2) Flash chromatography
3) Recrystallisation
Looking at videos and instructions online, (1) seems easiest as long as I'm patient and copy well. The materials don't seem too costly or complicated.
(2) has the advantage that @vash445 has demonstrated a before and after NMR that went for odd to more or less reference MDMA
(3) seems a bit like a black art so maybe harder to get right (thanks for the run-down @vecktor in an earlier post).
It looks like the biggest issue with the open column chromatography is handling the silica and being patient.
I highly respect you Sekio but I have to disagree.. Mdp2p-ol very likely has effects when you look at other analogous compounds. We also have multiple bioassays with product containing either of those two intermediates which show a lack of the positive effects.
Also I hate saying it but based on your other assessments of different substances that you may not have the best discernment between compounds. In another post you claim dihydroheroin is the same as heroin when both my experience with close dihydro analogs as well as others Ive talked with who’ve tried the actual compound speaks differently. (Even the research states morphine can be discerned from dihydromorphine by subjects during their studies.) Again I don’t wanna start anything but I believe some people can feel the subtleties better than others.
Do you remember how much Mdp2p-ol you had in your product back then?
-GC
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sekio
Bluelight Crew
I've been doing MDMA since high school... once I had the ability to run tests I didn't see much more than 10-20% MDP2Pol on GC, when it did show. Some batches had very little and were >95% MDMA based on peak area. Once or twice I also popped it into a polarimeter to check the optical rotation too: always consistently racemic.
... you do realize MDP2Pol is actually a metabolite of MDMA in humans? What activity is it supposed to have? As a non-nitrogenous compound it's gonna have poor PK, and I'm not really aware of any drugs that have similar structure and are also active at the levels present as an MDMA impurity (so maybe 10mg per dose?)
All I can say is, I have had remarkably consistent effects with MDMA. I'm happy to report my friends have had nothing but positive experiewnces when we dose together, too. I do try to keep things steeped in novelty though, my attitude has always been that complacency, boredom and repetition will doom almost any drug experience. Believe me or don't, I could care less. I'm just sharing my experiences. (I don't think I have ever had a MDMA experience that could be called 'meh'.)
For purification, what I'd do is look at a TLC plate, if you can get MDMA eluting as a spot that's got a good Rf, flash chromatography is absolutely the way to go. It is effectively a pressure/vacuum-assisted solvent flow system, which has a much higher flow rate than gravity fed columns. All you really need is a sintered glass funnel, flash silica, and solvent.
But the real head scratcher is the presumed dichotomy between 'meh' and 'magic' MDMA: if you purify meh-MDMA do you get magic MDMA out? Or just pure 'meh'? If you made a mixture of 50% Meh and 50% magic, could you seperate them again? If so meh-MDMA is a distinct chemical entity, and therefore isn't MDMA. If not, then meh-MDMA and magic-MDMA have identical structures and yet differing effects, which is a contradiction in terms. Ergo, I don't buy there is a physical difference between the two.
Another thing to ruminate on: why didn't Shulgin or any of the early MDMA proponents mention any sort of different effect profiles or 'batches'? Exactly when did this become a problem?
Obviously they're not 100% identical, but I found that the average street user who was used to cut street heroin would be withdrawal-free when taking DHH, and it produced enough of the typical opioid effects that nobody asked too many questions.
Are you familiar with the fairly recent study that showed career opioid addicts cannot distiinguish between hydromorphone and diamorphine at equipotent doses? It's totally contrary to what might seem to be the 'obvious' answer that the two drugs are wildly different. It kind of makes sense from a molecular physics point of view though: both drugs bind at the same site, producing the same effects at mu-opioid receptors.
... you do realize MDP2Pol is actually a metabolite of MDMA in humans? What activity is it supposed to have? As a non-nitrogenous compound it's gonna have poor PK, and I'm not really aware of any drugs that have similar structure and are also active at the levels present as an MDMA impurity (so maybe 10mg per dose?)
All I can say is, I have had remarkably consistent effects with MDMA. I'm happy to report my friends have had nothing but positive experiewnces when we dose together, too. I do try to keep things steeped in novelty though, my attitude has always been that complacency, boredom and repetition will doom almost any drug experience. Believe me or don't, I could care less. I'm just sharing my experiences. (I don't think I have ever had a MDMA experience that could be called 'meh'.)
For purification, what I'd do is look at a TLC plate, if you can get MDMA eluting as a spot that's got a good Rf, flash chromatography is absolutely the way to go. It is effectively a pressure/vacuum-assisted solvent flow system, which has a much higher flow rate than gravity fed columns. All you really need is a sintered glass funnel, flash silica, and solvent.
But the real head scratcher is the presumed dichotomy between 'meh' and 'magic' MDMA: if you purify meh-MDMA do you get magic MDMA out? Or just pure 'meh'? If you made a mixture of 50% Meh and 50% magic, could you seperate them again? If so meh-MDMA is a distinct chemical entity, and therefore isn't MDMA. If not, then meh-MDMA and magic-MDMA have identical structures and yet differing effects, which is a contradiction in terms. Ergo, I don't buy there is a physical difference between the two.
Another thing to ruminate on: why didn't Shulgin or any of the early MDMA proponents mention any sort of different effect profiles or 'batches'? Exactly when did this become a problem?
Obviously they're not 100% identical, but I found that the average street user who was used to cut street heroin would be withdrawal-free when taking DHH, and it produced enough of the typical opioid effects that nobody asked too many questions.
Are you familiar with the fairly recent study that showed career opioid addicts cannot distiinguish between hydromorphone and diamorphine at equipotent doses? It's totally contrary to what might seem to be the 'obvious' answer that the two drugs are wildly different. It kind of makes sense from a molecular physics point of view though: both drugs bind at the same site, producing the same effects at mu-opioid receptors.
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ThreePointCircle
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I have played with TLC, and although I was getting some results suggesting two different substances, it wasn't that clear. I'll try and up my game on that and thanks for your thoughts on flash chromatography.
I think the assumption that everyone is going on is that meh is either: not mdma but fooling some testing services into reporting as MDMA, or MDMA + impurities which are either actively messing with the experience or simply taking up space and reducing the actual dose of MDMA per g of purchased material. In other words, yes MDMA is MDMA, but the question is: is what is being sold as MDMA actually (and only) MDMA.
There have been a fair few journal papers posted here showing a lot of impurities in seized drugs. Furthermore, @vash445 showed an NMR plot of a magic sample that was as close as I can tell to a reference mdma plot, versus a meh sample which had an additional strong peek that shouldn't be there. Following separation via flash chromatography, the meh sample gave an NMR plot that was the same as a reference MDMA NMR plot. I don't believe it has been consumed yet so the subjective test hasn't been done. The assumption is that the meh sample was turned into magic by removing a contaminant.
As to when this meh stuff started appearing, I think people are saying somewhere from 2005-2008 but I may be wrong on that.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
Oh, btw, if you need a reference for analysis methods: SWGDRUG is the place to check. They have a lovely MDMA monograph with TLC methods, GC, LC, etc.
F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
Wow. 187 pages of this discussion is one hell of a playground myth.
I have over 25 years experience with this drug and find the subjective experience is more variable now than it's ever been.
Although I'm willing to concede that familiarity, tolerance, set & setting and unreasonable expectations can have a detrimental effect upon one's enjoyment of any drug, it doesn't explain the vastly different effects of the 'magic' and 'meh' varieties consistently reported in this thread.
These days, I take MDMA in the same set and setting everytime. Some batches have me flying for 5 - 6 hours loving life, the universe and everything, while others get me fucked up in a sedated (yet still enjoyable) way for 3 hours before I fall asleep.
These different effects are not dose dependent. A 'meh' experience cannot be transformed into a 'magical' one by simply adjusting the dose. They are like totally different drugs.
You're no doubt correct in saying that "MDMA is MDMA" and will produce reliably consistent results in a controlled setting. But when it's illicitly produced it's never likely to be totally pure so there are many other confounding variables at play. For all I know, the pure stuff might be shit and it's the impurities that give it the 'magic' in much the same way that street heroin is often preferred over pharmaceutical diamorphine,
However, I suspect we'll never find the real answer...
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@sekio
SO whatever "it" is non acetone washable (my product was acetone washed before getting it and many others tried and acetone wash with no positive effect) , and my guess is it is most likely an amine effecting the experience. Also the purity of my meh sample was quite pure according to the person running the NMR/column we had to take 200-400mg to feel anything so def meh, so whatever it is alters dosages in sub mg amounts because 400mg should have us rolling tits
SO whatever "it" is non acetone washable (my product was acetone washed before getting it and many others tried and acetone wash with no positive effect) , and my guess is it is most likely an amine effecting the experience. Also the purity of my meh sample was quite pure according to the person running the NMR/column we had to take 200-400mg to feel anything so def meh, so whatever it is alters dosages in sub mg amounts because 400mg should have us rolling tits
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sekio
Bluelight Crew
Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.
It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.
It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.
indigoaura
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@sekio Multiple studies have established that variations in synthesis methods result in different impurities. There is plenty of published data about how to identify synthesis method based on which impurities are noted in samples etc.
These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:
1. Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040
2. Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003
3. Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles
There is also research that shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426
The research that @vash445 and @vecktor have been completing has shown (so far) different NMR results for "magic" and "meh" samples.
If your experience has honestly been that you have never had a "meh" experience, then you don't understand what all of us are talking about. Until you have an experience where a lab tested product provides a completely lackluster and uncharacteristic effect, you will not really understand. @Hilopsilo was commenting on this thread early on with a lot of doubt until he actually ran into a meh sample that produced meh results for all of his friends, who later rolled just fine on a different sample. Just because something has not occurred for you or in your circle, that does not mean it is not occurring elsewhere.
As for research...no one is focused on improving the recreational experience of MDMA users through research at this time. There are too many limitations on researching MDMA right now in order for something like that to occur. MAPS did comment in an interview that they found the process of producing MDMA to be more complex than they originally expected, and someone in the thread claimed MAPS incorporated a column into their official process (which would line up with whatever impurity seems to have shown up in the NMR result).
These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:
1. Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040
2. Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003
3. Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles
There is also research that shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426
The research that @vash445 and @vecktor have been completing has shown (so far) different NMR results for "magic" and "meh" samples.
If your experience has honestly been that you have never had a "meh" experience, then you don't understand what all of us are talking about. Until you have an experience where a lab tested product provides a completely lackluster and uncharacteristic effect, you will not really understand. @Hilopsilo was commenting on this thread early on with a lot of doubt until he actually ran into a meh sample that produced meh results for all of his friends, who later rolled just fine on a different sample. Just because something has not occurred for you or in your circle, that does not mean it is not occurring elsewhere.
As for research...no one is focused on improving the recreational experience of MDMA users through research at this time. There are too many limitations on researching MDMA right now in order for something like that to occur. MAPS did comment in an interview that they found the process of producing MDMA to be more complex than they originally expected, and someone in the thread claimed MAPS incorporated a column into their official process (which would line up with whatever impurity seems to have shown up in the NMR result).
F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.
It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of Shulgin's product concocted in his garden shed 'laboratory'? Not exactly to pharmaceutical standards.
I'm no Chemist and I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I guess it's analogous to the beer brewing industry where micro brewers can produce a far superior product to the highly standardised and stabilised big commercial brewers due to the wildcard of environmental factors.
As I said, I'm no chemist. But it stands to reason that trying to manipulate molecules at an atomic level using processes measured at a macroscopic level is subject to factors totally beyond one's control.
This problem will never be resolved until MDMA is legalised and production methods are standardised with quality control measures put in place to determine how to make the best possible product.
Phoenix_rising
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If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.
thetab.com
Apart from the dodgy PMMA superman ones.
These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
Some contain three times the recommended dose
thetab.com
Apart from the dodgy PMMA superman ones.
F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.
These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
Some contain three times the recommended dose
Again, that is part of the problem. They may be being tested as 'pure', but a lot of these high dosed pills contain sub standard product. It's as if the producers are trying to compensate for lack of quality with higher quantities. But as stated before, it's not as simple as that as the difference in effects is not dose dependent. If you've got a 'meh' pill, taking more will just be more 'meh'.
indigoaura
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@Phoenix_rising Those results just further show that something is not right. People don't need 300 mg of MDMA. It is an overcompensation.
I'm pretty sure whatever it is,
Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.
It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.
I think the issue is , is that the freebase WASNT distilled. I'm not sure on my batch i'll ask, but i think alot of big manufactures are missing that step to bulk up the product
If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.
These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
Some contain three times the recommended dose
Apart from the dodgy PMMA superman ones.
The problem is MOST testing methods are missing whatever this MEH or this minor impurity is and you really need NMR to detect it what we seem with the 3-4 tests we have done. EVEN ON NMR ask a few people and IT looks like MDMA but it's funny
ThreePointCircle
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Wow, the price of silica gel for chromatography 
ouch
ouch
sekio
Bluelight Crew
Pro tip: ask for free samples. Most chemical vendors deal with HUGE quantities, like how many 1,000-liter IBCs, or how many 50 gallon drums you want. It would be trivially easy to get a kilo or two of flash silica if you were good enough at bullshitting them. "Hi, I'm Joe Blowski with XYZ Designs LLC, we were interested in evaluating your FooBar 2000 silica for SOME_INDUSTRIAL_USAGE, possibly purchasing up to $LARGE_NUMBER a year. Would you be able to provide us with a sample to validate its performance? Signed, J. Blowski" ... the sales people will be focused on the potential future "money maker" transactions. Usually most companies are quite happy to throw generous "sample" quantities of most any cheap industrial chemical/material. Silica, Celite, plastic resins, metals, stabilizers, antioxidants, cellulose derivatives (filler/binder for pills), pharmaceutical ingredients and sometimes even reagents (if you're silver tongued or otherwise lucky) are all fair game assuming they're not super-precious or unusually hazardous. Just don't be too greedy - there are a multitude of chemical manufacturers around. If you are constantly asking FooCorp for free shit they will eventually decide you're not worth their time as a potential future customer.
Now, I'm not saying that this is moral, but hey: free shit. As a sometimes-bonus you might also end up receiving product catalogues (or you used to, in days of paper documents)., which make good monitor stands or doorstops.
BTW, Shulgin's little backyard lab was suprisingly well quipped, I seem to recall he had an IR spec and a GC at least.
Now, I'm not saying that this is moral, but hey: free shit. As a sometimes-bonus you might also end up receiving product catalogues (or you used to, in days of paper documents)., which make good monitor stands or doorstops.
BTW, Shulgin's little backyard lab was suprisingly well quipped, I seem to recall he had an IR spec and a GC at least.
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opposable-thumbs
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I now have access to some of the same product @indigoaura recently posted about and sent off for testing.
I'm paraphrasing so correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe the product showed 80% purity in the test, and had a strong come up, but that tolerance could have played a part in the way the roll felt. Not meh but not full magic.
It will be interesting to see 2 subjective opinions on the same product.
Next possible roll would be Valentine's Day (not sure if it will happen) which would be a 4.5 month break since my last experience with a different product.
Also since that roll I've been taking NAC, Lion's Mane and Mag Threonate, so I should be reset and ready to go.
I'll post up results after I get a chance to try it.
I'm paraphrasing so correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe the product showed 80% purity in the test, and had a strong come up, but that tolerance could have played a part in the way the roll felt. Not meh but not full magic.
It will be interesting to see 2 subjective opinions on the same product.
Next possible roll would be Valentine's Day (not sure if it will happen) which would be a 4.5 month break since my last experience with a different product.
Also since that roll I've been taking NAC, Lion's Mane and Mag Threonate, so I should be reset and ready to go.
I'll post up results after I get a chance to try it.
SlowandFastandSlow
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Well all this is talk has made me wanna pick some mdma up for the first time in years.
If I do, I'll send some to wedinos unless anyone knows anywhere else I can send it to to get some kinda quantative analysis aswell? I'm in the UK.
If I do, I'll send some to wedinos unless anyone knows anywhere else I can send it to to get some kinda quantative analysis aswell? I'm in the UK.
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