What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[SpiralusSancti]

This is good to know, although it doesn't necessarily rule out the well known all-or-nothing MDMA threshold and maybe even supports it. At least in my experiences, I can't really rule it out. As in, if purifying it makes what was 80mg of MDMA in a 100mg pile of powder into 95mg in a 100mg pile of powder, thats a big difference and could be the difference between rolling or not.

Some MehDMA experiences people say redosing doesn't help, but I think redosing can't really be considered for any of this just because of the nature of redosing. It completely throws off the timeline and any consistent window of reference experience to experience.

Not to be reckless, but if you're stuck in the muck with MehDMA, maybe just try throwin back like 250mg. I do have friends that even with the good stuff need 200mg to properly roll, and these are not people who have "lost the magic". 100mg always does me good but I weigh half of what some people do. Some people I've spoken with associate the sleepy roll with lower dose, and personally I find MDMA a sleepy experience unless there is a lot of stimulation going on like music, lights, crowds, etc.

O yeah, what you wrote is definitely a possibility as taking same weight of crystals when one is >99% and other of low purity that's a huge difference in dose.
I think it's not only that difference in the dose but in some or even most cases it might be main factors. I never bothered experimenting with doses of mehMDMA and maybe if I did it would feel a lot more as it should. But what makes me lean even more on the side it isn't just that is exactly case of a friend I mentioned as he tried various batches in range of doses over years. Well, that still doesn't guarantee if he took very small dose of purified stuff he would still be impressed.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Would "washing" necessarily removes the synthesis byproducts? I understand washing will remove certain things, like blatant cuts, due to how different they are to MDMA or whatever drug you're cleaning, but what if the impurities are very close to MDMA in terms of solubility, etc (im not a chemist)?

Well it does remove a lot of something for sure and idk what else it would.
Also I wash it + recrystallize.
In theory you can only use recrystallizing in various solvents and temperatures and with proper technique end up with stuff of wonderful purity.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

There are destined to be some chemicals that are of similar solubility like substance you are purifying and that's why you need to expect quite big losses AND that's why it isn't commercially done. At lest not by majority of producers.
Take brown sugar MDMA I mentioned, it wasn't washed or recrystallized but it's made by route that results in so pure MDMA. I'm guessing this but I would say it's a pretty educated guess.

 

[unodelacosa]

Pretty much all ketamine thats tested on there comes up with a sizeable chunk as synthesis byproducts, and the %/ratio is given, usually 10-25%, and that doesn't come up on reagent testing. Makes me wonder if MDMA is often this much as its just not tested for.

Exactly – reagent tests are not indicators of purity or potency. Of course there are synthesis byproducts in virtually any drug, even pharma regulators use fault tolerances. W/the lack of oversight on the black market, a lower purity 'standard' and higher impurity tolerance is expected. And the gov. calls this 'drug control'.

But you're right – the correlating data is based on particular testing facilities' separate practice of identifying synthesis byproducts and reporting that data. Byproducts are an insight into the synthesis used by the chemists on a particular batch, and detectives use this data in their investigations.

How much MDMA is lost?

Well… what's being lost is (mostly) not MDMA, but rather, impurities. A tiny amount of MDMA is lost to the sides of beakers & shit like that, but it's not much. A rinse might remove 5% gross weight, while recrystallizing might see a ~10-15% loss maybe… Looking over Shulgin's synthesis of MDMA in PIHKAL, it looks like he went from 47.13 g to 42.0 g after recrystallizing, so that's ~11% loss in gross weight, just remember the majority of that was never MDMA to begin with. It's removing impurities, let's not forget. Is it worth it? Idk, probably? It's worth doing at least once to see for yourself I think if you have the means to do so …

If you washed say a 1/4 oz, how much MDMA would remain?

6.232 g … j/k, it's not a set, standard thing. Probably 10 - 15% if you're starting with reasonably clean stuff. Also note: if the MDMA is deliberately cut with caffeine, meth, α-PVP, or any other amine-bearing compound, a/b extractions, acetone rinses, and recrystallisation won't remove these cuts.

Does it recrystalise/change colour etc? Any photos?

Recrystallising is a different process. For that, the crystals are dissolved in a warm solvent that can dissolve it only while warm. As the solution cools off, crystals form along the bottom. For MDMA, anhydrous acetone is the key to it. If you want hard crystals, use methyl ethyl ketone (aka: butanone, MEK) and acetone in a two-solvent recrystallization. If you want aesthetically pleasing-but-delicate crystals, recrystallize from boiling IPA and acetone.

However, a rinse is simply placing the crystals in a filter and decanting ice-cold anhydrous acetone over the crushed up MDMA.HCl. This will have the effect of removing some, perhaps virtually all, off-white colours from the MDMA, rinsing away many impurities, though some may stay locked inside the crystals and only dissolving it into a solution will unlock it to be washed away… As for photos, believe it or not, you can find video of it on YouTube I believe, though it might be thinly veiled as something else…

… taking it on an empty stomach, eating a good nutritious breakfast and lunch, assuming you'll take it at night, is also of at least some importance. And there's enough such things that one can end up disregarding them and ending up with not so impressive experience even with best MDMA in the world.

Yeah I agree – what's in our stomach is of course going to make a big difference with just about anything we ingest orally.

The ecstasy of old probably used a substance that is found only in the bark of some tree in a jungle somewhere in Asia.

That was the case at one point circa 2008/2009. There are various Safrole-containing plants (SCPs) all over the globe. Some of the species are native to Asia; Cambodia is a good example. But there's also Sassafras albidum which grows all over North America and is native to, for instance, the Blue Ridge Mountains, in the eastern US, that run through parts of Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. The oil's major constituent is a compound called Safrole (3,4-methylenedioxy-allylbenzene). This is isolated through fractional vacuum distillation, and the chemistry is very straightforward at that point with at least a dozen very well known synthetic paths to MDMA, and dozens of lesser known routes as well. The allyl group is ultimately replaced by a nitrogen-bearing moiety known as an amine, and this is what makes it active in the human body and capable of crossing the BBB.

We know this is how ecstasy has traditionally been made by clandestine chemists. They started from sassafras oil, back before it was heavily watched like it is now, distilled it, isomerized it and converted it to a ketone intermediate, MDP2P, which was purified again via vacuum distillation. Finally, reductive amination to MDMA and another round of purification, then gassing, rinsing, recrystallizing and voila! I won't go into any more details, but I think it's crucial to at least understand the outline of the process in order to clear up confusion regarding PMK. If you're reading this, please bear with me here.

In Cambodia in 2008, there was a global crackdown on Sassafras, particularly Sassafras oil, while Safrole is a List 1 precursor and heavily watched as well. This Cambodian Sassafras issue has been written about extensively bc it affected the local ecosphere there. But also, two things notable to our discussion subsequently occurred:

1. the emergence of PMK and PMK-glycidate, mostly from China, on the black market, and​

2. new plant sources for Sassafras oil / Safrole began getting tapped.​

The latter instance is no different in terms of process – it's just a different plant matter to extract or press the oil from instead of the root of sassafras (hooray for root beer!). But the former instance deserves some explanation I've found, or else it tends to lead to conspiracy theories among those who don't understand, have no interest in, or just plain disregard the chemistry. PMK is Piperonyl Methyl Ketone and is aka: MDP2P. Manufacturing MDMA from PMK is simply starting from a more developed precursor. The process goes: 1. Safrole/Isosafrole → 2. MDP2P (PMK) → 3. MDMA. There's nothing magical about Sassafras oil; Safrole itself can be synthesized efficiently enough; nature isn't necessary. With a drug like cocaine, where it's one of 16 possible isomers due to the four positional chiral centers, and the synthesis is a real low-yielding nightmare, it's no wonder plant production is the only economically feasible way. With MDMA, this is not the case; the molecule is much easier to synthesize and both of its two positional isomers are active and purportedly synergistic with one another.

Those trees are almost gone and the government of whatever hellhole it comes from cracked down and the trees were not replaced.

Again, you're referring to Cambodia circa 2008. It's been written about: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/feb/25/ecstasy-cambodia And again: it's far from being the only source of Safrole, and this happened quite some time ago.

They are probably trying to make similar chemicals but the real stuff is a thing of the past and now you have fake garbage

Wow, that's as imaginative as it is both bleak and—thankfully—untrue. There are a lot of different MDMA manufacturers/distributors out there. They don't all work as one. Plan a trip to come to the U.S. – flights are cheap right now, relatively speaking – and if you seek it, you will find real deal MDMA here, the same compound we took in the 90s. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Bet your ass some MDMA is lost too, otherwise it would be standard procedure to wash and recrystallize it as a last step. Solvents price ain't reason it isn't done as those are easy to recycle. Sure you can lower that loss by collecting waste and once you have enough purify that, and that's what is standard procedure with valuable chems.
And you can separate a lot of stuff with similar properties just by recrystallizing and taking in account what substance is more or less soluble in used solvents. Tho that ain't easy work ofc. And recrystallizing under different pressures is needed if they are too close in solubility at room pressure and temperature. But if one has enough of different solvents, skill and patience even just varying temperatures will be enough to separate many chemicals even if chemically pretty similar.

 

[Jnowhere]

Never wanted to try ecstacy of old, early mid 1990's; not still legal old. But there were no complaints. I am not into hard drugs, but I bet the stuff 25-30 years ago is either gone or mostly made with a recipe

Exactly – reagent tests are not indicators of purity or potency. Of course there are synthesis byproducts in virtually any drug, even pharma regulators use fault tolerances. W/the lack of oversight on the black market, a lower purity 'standard' and higher impurity tolerance is expected. And the gov. calls this 'drug control'.

But you're right – the correlating data is based on particular testing facilities' separate practice of identifying synthesis byproducts and reporting that data. Byproducts are an insight into the synthesis used by the chemists on a particular batch, and detectives use this data in their investigations.


Well… what's being lost is (mostly) not MDMA, but rather, impurities. A tiny amount of MDMA is lost to the sides of beakers & shit like that, but it's not much. A rinse might remove 5% gross weight, while recrystallizing might see a ~10-15% loss maybe… Looking over Shulgin's synthesis of MDMA in PIHKAL, it looks like he went from 47.13 g to 42.0 g after recrystallizing, so that's ~11% loss in gross weight, just remember the majority of that was never MDMA to begin with. It's removing impurities, let's not forget. Is it worth it? Idk, probably? It's worth doing at least once to see for yourself I think if you have the means to do so …


6.232 g … j/k, it's not a set, standard thing. Probably 10 - 15% if you're starting with reasonably clean stuff. Also note: if the MDMA is deliberately cut with caffeine, meth, α-PVP, or any other amine-bearing compound, a/b extractions, acetone rinses, and recrystallisation won't remove these cuts.


Recrystallising is a different process. For that, the crystals are dissolved in a warm solvent that can dissolve it only while warm. As the solution cools off, crystals form along the bottom. For MDMA, anhydrous acetone is the key to it. If you want hard crystals, use methyl ethyl ketone (aka: butanone, MEK) and acetone in a two-solvent recrystallization. If you want aesthetically pleasing-but-delicate crystals, recrystallize from boiling IPA and acetone.

However, a rinse is simply placing the crystals in a filter and decanting ice-cold anhydrous acetone over the crushed up MDMA.HCl. This will have the effect of removing some, perhaps virtually all, off-white colours from the MDMA, rinsing away many impurities, though some may stay locked inside the crystals and only dissolving it into a solution will unlock it to be washed away… As for photos, believe it or not, you can find video of it on YouTube I believe, though it might be thinly veiled as something else…


Yeah I agree – what's in our stomach is of course going to make a big difference with just about anything we ingest orally.


That was the case at one point circa 2008/2009. There are various Safrole-containing plants (SCPs) all over the globe. Some of the species are native to Asia; Cambodia is a good example. But there's also Sassafras albidum which grows all over North America and is native to, for instance, the Blue Ridge Mountains, in the eastern US, that run through parts of Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. The oil's major constituent is a compound called Safrole (3,4-methylenedioxy-allylbenzene). This is isolated through fractional vacuum distillation, and the chemistry is very straightforward at that point with at least a dozen very well known synthetic paths to MDMA, and dozens of lesser known routes as well. The allyl group is ultimately replaced by a nitrogen-bearing moiety known as an amine, and this is what makes it active in the human body and capable of crossing the BBB.

We know this is how ecstasy has traditionally been made by clandestine chemists. They started from sassafras oil, back before it was heavily watched like it is now, distilled it, isomerized it and converted it to a ketone intermediate, MDP2P, which was purified again via vacuum distillation. Finally, reductive amination to MDMA and another round of purification, then gassing, rinsing, recrystallizing and voila! I won't go into any more details, but I think it's crucial to at least understand the outline of the process in order to clear up confusion regarding PMK. If you're reading this, please bear with me here.

In Cambodia in 2008, there was a global crackdown on Sassafras, particularly Sassafras oil, while Safrole is a List 1 precursor and heavily watched as well. This Cambodian Sassafras issue has been written about extensively bc it affected the local ecosphere there. But also, two things notable to our discussion subsequently occurred:

1. the emergence of PMK and PMK-glycidate, mostly from China, on the black market, and​

2. new plant sources for Sassafras oil / Safrole began getting tapped.​

The latter instance is no different in terms of process – it's just a different plant matter to extract or press the oil from instead of the root of sassafras (hooray for root beer!). But the former instance deserves some explanation I've found, or else it tends to lead to conspiracy theories among those who don't understand, have no interest in, or just plain disregard the chemistry. PMK is Piperonyl Methyl Ketone and is aka: MDP2P. Manufacturing MDMA from PMK is simply starting from a more developed precursor. The process goes: 1. Safrole/Isosafrole → 2. MDP2P (PMK) → 3. MDMA. There's nothing magical about Sassafras oil; Safrole itself can be synthesized efficiently enough; nature isn't necessary. With a drug like cocaine, where it's one of 16 possible isomers due to the four positional chiral centers, and the synthesis is a real low-yielding nightmare, it's no wonder plant production is the only economically feasible way. With MDMA, this is not the case; the molecule is much easier to synthesize and both of its two positional isomers are active and purportedly synergistic with one another.


Again, you're referring to Cambodia circa 2008. It's been written about: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/feb/25/ecstasy-cambodia And again: it's far from being the only source of Safrole, and this happened quite some time ago.


Wow, that's as imaginative as it is both bleak and—thankfully—untrue. There are a lot of different MDMA manufacturers/distributors out there. They don't all work as one. Plan a trip to come to the U.S. – flights are cheap right now, relatively speaking – and if you seek it, you will find real deal MDMA here, the same compound we took in the 90s. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I admit, when I was younger, 1990's, I never wanted to try it. But From all the discussion good ecstacy on a consistent basis is gone. Besides the best drugs always seem to have a natural component, in Them. I bet most of it is totally synthetic. Besides few clandestine labs have anything related to quality control.

 

[unodelacosa]

There are destined to be some chemicals that are of similar solubility like substance you are purifying and that's why you need to expect quite big losses AND that's why it isn't commercially done. At lest not by majority of producers.
Take brown sugar MDMA I mentioned, it wasn't washed or recrystallized but it's made by route that results in so pure MDMA. I'm guessing this but I would say it's a pretty educated guess.

No, it's not that big of a loss. Just follow along with the MDMA entry from PIHKAL. Shulgin starts with 41 g of the drug oil, then adds HCl—brings it up to like ~47.126 g IIRC—and has 42.0 g in the end. So that's (42.0 g / 47.126 g) = 89.12% See what I mean? It's not that serious. These purification techniques are standard procedures in organic chemistry and considered a bare minimum for anyone consuming the product.

From what I understand it's often the case that the chemist is splashing a little bit of the precursor oil into the finished product on purpose to give it the smell of Sassafras oil. They do this to authenticate to the user the fact that they have genuine MDMA, as evidenced by the precursor, Safrole. It's smell is pretty instantly recognizable as being that of root beer and kind of like a liquorish. And this makes sense when you think about it bc the brown sugar MDMA is easily acetone rinsed and it's usually been the case for me that it's kick-ass stuff. Not as good as the stuff I had a couple weeks ago that was fuckin' amazeballs. It's like if someone took the feeling of Kirk Gibson hitting the game winning home run in the ninth inning of the 1988 Major League Baseball World Series Game 1… and they put it into a drug, lol.

Bet your ass some MDMA is lost too, otherwise it would be standard procedure to wash and recrystallize it as a last step.

… it is standard procedure. Even among clandestine chemists. Don't take my word for it, take a look at some of the links from the Erowid's archive of the old Rhodium website:

• A Photo Essay on the Nitromethane Al/Hg (I especially recommend looking at this one as it has pics)
• Complete MDMA Synthesis by Bright Star
• Complete MDMA Synthesis by Dr Drool

And recrystallizing under different pressures is needed if they are too close in solubility at room pressure and temperature. But if one has enough of different solvents, skill and patience even just varying temperatures will be enough to separate many chemicals even if chemically pretty similar.

Except that many times, alcohols tend to be miscible in both polar and non-polar solvents and can create a third phase sometimes in the sep funnel that can be nearly impossible to separate easily. Also, some solvents form azeotropes, like ethanol and water. Ethanol boils at 85°C and water at 100°C, right? Except when you get to the last 5% those two boiling points converge. Fractionating columns can only get so accurate, and so ultimately liquid phase chromatography through a column can be the only way to separate two compounds from one another. A good example of this is how LSD has to be separated from its three other positional isomers via chromatography column (and have its solvent removed with a rotovap).

Never wanted to try ecstacy of old, early mid 1990's; not still legal old. But there were no complaints.

Yes, there were definitely bunk pills that would show up from time to time, usually an imitation of a pill that had garnered a good reputation. Like the white Mitsubishis that were everyone's favorite e-pill one summer in the late 90s. Within a year though, some a-hole flooded the market with fake Mitsubishis and no one would buy them anymore. This same thing happened to the "BAD BOY" presses, the double-stack white Omegas, triple-stack Crowns and the Red Scorpion pressies. There were complaints when those bunk batches hit the streets

I am not into hard drugs, but I bet the stuff 25-30 years ago is either gone or mostly made with a recipe

What? How is that an either/or scenario? Either the old stuff is gone or… the alternative here? → it's made with a 'recipe'? Confusing, my guy, but check it out. Of course, drugs from 25-30 yrs ago are all gone now. This debate really will never be settled bc none of us have pills from back then to test out, so it's all a moot point, really, I'm just using pure logic, reason, and chemistry to combat loads of worthless superstition. But yes the stuff from years ago is gone. Thanks for your best conjecture.

Recipes are sets of instructions for how to prepare a particular culinary dish. Unlike synthesis, generally ingredients are added to the dish and not later removed. There are very few purification techniques involved in cooking. And raw foods aside, generally all of the ingredients are in a food safe form at all times. Contrast this with chemistry which deals with poisonous, hazardous chemicals, necessitating purification not only for the safety of the end user, but as a means of boosting yields and purity levels. Cutting corners here only ends up costing the clandestine chemist more in lost yields, wasted precursors, and unwanted side products. The smart chemist realizes this.

I admit, when I was younger, 1990's, I never wanted to try it.

Youth is wasted on the young.

But From all the discussion good ecstacy on a consistent basis is gone.

Bullshit. I get good MDMA on a consistent basis and I have since circa 2015, or really—with a few hiccups circa 2002, 2009, and 2013—I've been able to source MDMA since ~1996. Same with LSD, but there have been a couple temporary draughts, one occurring in 2001 following the missile silo bust in Kansas in the US.

Besides the best drugs always seem to have a natural component, in Them.

Why, bc they're natural? White oleander is natural, so is poison ivy, poison sumac, deadly nightshade belladonna / Jimson weed, Aminita ocreata ('Angel of Death' mushrooms), Aminita verna ('The Spring Destroying Angel'), and on and on. At the same time, consider the NMDA-receptor antagonist and dissociative drug, Ketamine, which is both a popular recreational substance, and on the WHO's list of essential medicines as it allows for full anesthesia without compromising the body's respiratory system.

I can also make the argument, based off your logic, that meth falls into the 'best drugs' category based on its relationship to ephedrine and the Ma Huang ephedra plant. Honestly, nature is scary, hostile, dangerous, and indifferent to us. Most things that are manmade were made to benefit humankind. Wholistic theory is valid and it's fine and all, but in the end I'm using science to make the final decision on things, ya know?

To your point though, yeah, it's amazing how many good drugs are at least semi-synthetic and have a blueprint mapped out in nature already. We got most of our best drug ideas from the natural world around us, but there is some intelligent drug designing going on from time to time. Take MXE for example – it's inventor targeted it based on placing certain moieties on certain locations known to amplify this or that wanted quality, in part in effort to cure his own phantom limb pain. It's really interesting stuff.

I bet most of it is totally synthetic.

This doesn't matter. MDMA totally 100% synthesized from industrial chemicals, in capable hands, will render the same ultra-pure end product indistinguishable from that which is made from the oil in the root bark of a particular tree. It doesn't matter, because synthesis is all about taking pure reagents and reacting them with a catalyst to form a desired target chemical, and then clean and purify that chemical to its essence. Pure MDMA will always be pure MDMA; doesn't matter what it was made from so long as it has been isolated and cleaned.

Besides few clandestine labs have anything related to quality control.

Only self-implemented quality control. There is obviously no overseeing federal agency like Big Pharma has, and this is where the govt.'s of the world are failing to control drugs and protect their people. It's not accomplished by trying to eradicate the supply. And criminalizing possession often damages people's lives far worse than the drugs ever could. So if you want to be salty with someone, take it up with the slack-ass govt. overseeing you to lock you up instead of offering help.

 

[unodelacosa]

Would "washing" necessarily removes the synthesis byproducts? I understand washing will remove certain things, like blatant cuts, due to how different they are to MDMA or whatever drug you're cleaning, but what if the impurities are very close to MDMA in terms of solubility, etc (im not a chemist)?

No it's the other way around. Anything with an amine, (-NH₃), like tryptamines, phenethylamines, amphetamines, lysergamides, and indeed the majority of active drugs, from over-the-counter to illicit street drugs, contain this nitrogen group that gives the chemical special properties regarding its pH. So, these rinses will remove closely related synthetic side products that don't have the amine group (most don't). But deliberately added cuts with the amine group, like caffeine, ephedrine, α-PVP, MDPV, meth, methylone, ethylone, butylone, because of the amine, changing the solution's pH from low to high or vice versa will have the same effect on the cut as the end product. It will just go along for the acid/base extraction ride and never leave your end product, but it'll be pure! See what I mean?

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Also note: if the MDMA is deliberately cut with caffeine, meth, α-PVP, or any other amine-bearing compound, a/b extractions, acetone rinses, and recrystallisation won't remove these cuts.

What about basification followed by distillation? Or running a column?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

@unodelacosa what you say about purification isn't correct. If those procedures are routinely done by black market chemists how the fuck that so much MDMA is of low purity, I'm talking about Europe and I know that for a fact and it isn't my opinion, assumption or whatever you usually say to discredit what I say. You are comparing Shulgins synths with industrial scale production. First try to end up with as pure stuff as Shulgin did when producing on industrial scale and while often along doing compromises to what are perfect procedures, routes and materials.
Also LSD purification and MDMA purification are two totally different beasts.
Saw links you posted, first time when I was a teen, now again, yeah, that's how it should be done even when scaled up but MDMA would be too pricey than I guess. Jk, why would producers even care cuz many were happy even with funky coloured 64% stuff and those who weren't maybe had it in one of 350mg presses.
Sorry if I'll now make wrong assumption about you, but to me it seems you think most MDMA production and distribution isn't mostly done by greedy people into it only for the money? Most of those folks will and did gladly push out toxic replacements when need arises.
I remember when one year during and after festivals in my country there were loads of presses, one with MDMA and other with some piperazine iirc, exactly the same look and quality. Was one made by good hippy folks and other by some evil greedy jakuzas or whatever?

What about basification followed by distillation? Or running a column?

You can use recrystallization too if you have patience and skill. There are chemicals that required thousand upon thousands of recrystallizations to achieve desired purity. Most of those are now purified in a lot more efficient way but principles used for that can be applied to separate two compounds that for the most part behave similarly but not exactly the same.
You know what's the black magic behind recrystallizing when separating two compounds of which one is slightly more soluble in some solvent? And last I checked different chemicals tend to differ at least slightly in mg/ml or mg/l solubility.
Do this, dissolve mixture of two compounds in minimal possible amount of solvent. Bring up or lower temperature to optimal (if you can do that with pressure too even better) to that at which crystallization will begin. After some amount of crystals is formed drain off solvent. Test those crystals and if you did it right, and chose a right solvent(s) those crystals wont be same as mixture you started with. Keep repeating and you'll end up with mostly just one substance.
This is most basic explanation and this is not a chemist forum but re(crystallizing) is an art in itself and there are countless variations used in fine chemistry. And for some compounds it still can be method of choice for purification/separating.

I'm a bit pissed off this isn't common knowledge lol. You can find descriptions of how it's done in pretty basic textbooks too.

 

[AutoTripper]

Never wanted to try ecstacy of old, early mid 1990's; not still legal old. But there were no complaints. I am not into hard drugs, but I bet the stuff 25-30 years ago is either gone or mostly made with a recipe

I admit, when I was younger, 1990's, I never wanted to try it. But From all the discussion good ecstacy on a consistent basis is gone. Besides the best drugs always seem to have a natural component, in Them. I bet most of it is totally synthetic. Besides few clandestine labs have anything related to quality control.

Exactly because there really should be an easily discernible sensical whiff of smoke at most, I've said since ever it amazed me having not thought about exstacy for 14 years to see this thread topic and debate.

Early 90's no way ever. Mid, latter better after a 96-98 lull but with scores and scores still of original high q presses around like Doves Elephants Dolphins Diamonds Californian Sunrisers etd then Mitsubishis arrived late 97

98-2000 really good again central UK anyway.

About 2000 too when pure enough powder and crystal became the rage.

No body questioned it ever and it's gross availability forced press manufacturers to keep highest standards to keep commerce basically.

So I obviously indulged in all the MDMA crystal, but often after a week of work for weekend raving, I could get 8 pills high quality MDMA or MDA easy 120-170 mg's and supreme for 20 English bucks vs 1000 mg's crystal, for 50 or a 25 half.


Still, individual magic loss cases over time aside, no such talk. It's obvious there is an enormous stinking fire somewhere off sight.

 

[unodelacosa]

What about basification followed by distillation? Or running a column?

You're talking about converting the drug salt back into its base oil with, say NaOH solution, and collecting it with a non-polar solvent 3x, washing the pooled solution, stripping off the non-polar solvent under vacuum and then setting up for vacuum distillation. Obviously this is a lot of work and well beyond the scope of most folks at home, but easily within the scope of a clandestine chemist producing MDMA.

Basically though, you would still run into the same problems as before though if you have two very high, close together boiling points. This would require the use of both a vacuum and a fractionating column for the distillation and it would have to proceed very slowly and even then, if they're too close together in boiling point, it's virtually impossible to distill them apart. The smarter way absolutely is to use a chromatography column and pass your mixture solution over silica beads to separate constituents. This is how LSD is separated from its other three isomers – iso-LSD, L-LSD, and L-iso-LSD – they're passed over a chromatography column and a rotovap is used to remove the solvents. And this is because LSD is very sensitive to heat, so distillation is not an option.

@unodelacosa what you say about purification isn't correct.

Yes it is. These procedures are standard. They teach them in high school / secondary school, colleges and universities in Orgo. Chem Lab 101. And besides, if the chemist doesn't know how to purify intermediate precursors, they'll never make it to any end product in the first place, trust me. Purifying is quintessential to any success in a chemistry lab, clandestine or highly regulated, doesn't matter, the laws of science apply equally, never mind the laws of mankind, ya feel me?

I sense frustration. I'm not trying to put you down just bc we disagree. I respect you, ok? Pls know that. And then try to hear me out if you can.

If those procedures are routinely done by black market chemists how the fuck that so much MDMA is of low purity,

Ok firstly, you know I'm in the US, and I don't visit Europe as often as I would like, so it's pretty obvious we're having different experiences in procuring this chemical, and it's no doubt influencing both of our thinking. Being that I just rolled my tits off two weeks ago on some MDMA (note: I live in NYC), it's hard for me to agree with a statement that all MDMA is garbage now or whatever. But being that you haven't had a good roll since Tony Blair was Prime Minister, I get that it's hard for you to accept what I'm saying. I get that; just try to get what I'm saying, too, s'il vous plaît.

Secondly, purification techniques have to be used most times in organic chemistry. It's a part of the chemistry. To the chemist making MDMA, there are intermediate precursors along the way in any multi-route synthesis and they must be purified before proceeding. It's a necessity. So I would argue that most chemists have the ability to do this. When it comes to crystallizing, for example, the product must be clean first for the procedure to work properly.

But to be clear, I have zero stats on the procedures of European clandestine chemists, and I imagine that data is logistically untenable as there is no oversight or enforcement of standards. Notice this is not the same thing as the existence of standards. There is a standard set of procedures that are internationally recognized for how to conduct organic chemistry. These standards include the aforementioned purification techniques. Knowledge of these techniques is so ubiquitous that even underground chemistry authors mention them in their literature. That's how pervasive this knowledge is. Most times, it's required to proceed through a synthesis, especially if there is a chemical intermediate to go through on the way to a target compound. I would never presume to know how all of the world's clandestine chemists work, though, and yet you seem to have no problems making tons of assumptions with how these things go. Why so confident? I think you should challenge your assumptions. Ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? But what the fuck do I know?

Thirdly, "… so much MDMA is of low purity" ← can you prove to me that this is a fact? Anecdotal stories are not proof. I'll take data lab evidence if you have it. I'll take a report from law enforcement breaking down purity levels on seized contraband. Do you have any of those reports or figures? And I'm not being glib here or anything, I'm really interested in seeing any relevant data like this. If you have those numbers, then ok, your statement holds water, so to speak. But otherwise this is just wild speculation with no real evidence beyond the anecdotes of a couple dozen people online. Do you see how that's problematic? Too much subjectivity. We need science. Not random guesses from people without significant chemistry experience.

I'm talking about Europe and I know that for a fact and it isn't my opinion, assumption or whatever you usually say to discredit what I say.

I'm not discrediting you and don't take it personally, please. Pointing out flaws in your logic and possible biases is not the same thing as discrediting you. Look, if you know something for fact, then there should be clear evidence to show me that proves it's not just your opinion or assumption. I have yet to see this from anyone. And that's all. It's no big deal, I just can't agree with unqualified blanket statements about all of the world's MDMA or about well known science standards.

Also LSD purification and MDMA purification are two totally different beasts.

Not so different that chromatography suddenly works differently. Look man, before we drag out this pissing contest any longer, I think we're both on the same page and getting hung up on semantics, and we've had different experiences in procuring MDMA from our local markets, respectively. There's a tendency to project what we've experienced onto the rest of the world, so I'm bullish on quality MDMA's existence worldwide, whereas you're more pessimistic on the matter, understandably. My m.o. has been to attempt to spread hope and the message that if I can find quality MDMA still in 2023 amid a world that contains bunk, fake, garbage, or imposter MDMA in some amount still yet unknown, but just like there was in the 90s, then there is hope yet for those on this thread who seem convinced that it has all permanently vanished. It's alive and well, friends, you just gotta know where to find it.

Nothing shaking on Shakedown Street​

Used to be the heart of town​

Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart​

You just gotta poke around​

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I'm not in the UK but I would completely agree w/that assessment and I also don't know anyone currently in the UK who seems able to get domestic MDMA worth a fuck, save for a few rare cases here and there, it seems. And this makes me think it might get better soon-ish. Seems like a really big market and it's only a matter of time before some enterprising types with the right connections and inclination for civil disobedience take advantage of this opportunity, risky though it is in its criminal elements and potential for loss of liberty. It's just a matter of time before the land that gave us the Doncaster raves will be flush with high quality Mandy again…

Sorry, not been keeping up with the thread regularly - going through a cyclic disillusionment with it all, but back now.

I feel in the UK there's a 'get wasted by any means necessary' vibe which doesn't really discern between the different experiences of different types of drugs. Therefore bad mdma as described here would be tolerated as it still ticks the getting wasted box.

I'm not in the circles where I can imagine good product turning up. People seem to be doing mostly cannabis and ket anyway.

So the dark markets are the only way to go for me. I don't give any vendor repeat business in my search for the elusive good result but I haven't found it in years of trying.

The frustrating thing is I can't rule in or out bad product vs me being the problem. If someone whose opinion I trusted pointed me to good product and I tried it and it was still meh, then I'd know it was me (or alternatively I'd have an amazing time and know it was the state of the market). But I can't exactly ask the people here because it's against t&c's, assuming they'd be comfortable with it anyway. So I'm stuck with online. I am amazed at how few vendors there are at any one time, and how homogenous the product appears (I just want to scream when I read 'dutch fire' for the 100th time). So I could very much see how bad product could persist, due to the lack of source variation (or at least my perception of it). I have once or twice tried buying from the US if an interesting listing came available but it's still been rubbish.

 

[unodelacosa]

I feel in the UK there's a 'get wasted by any means necessary' vibe

Oh it's beyond just the UK. That vibe seems ubiquitous sometimes.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the UK is all mostly controlled by a specific criminal syndicate supplying 90+% of the UK's so-called Mandy. Organized—excuse me, organised—crime is purportedly often guilty of a certain British sense of regimentation and ministry, pomp and circumstance, as it were. It surprises me meth hasn't caught on in the U.K. the way it has in Australia. I understand cocaine is really popular in the U.K. now thanks in part to Columbian and Dutch drug smugglers working together. I wonder if this has any connection to the the whole "Tusibi – 2C-B" scenario… But I digress. Point is: tidy up, UK, and throw out that rubbish; bring back the Doncaster raves.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Oh it's beyond just the UK. That vibe seems ubiquitous sometimes.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the UK is all mostly controlled by a specific criminal syndicate supplying 90+% of the UK's so-called Mandy. Organized—excuse me, organised—crime is purportedly often guilty of a certain British sense of regimentation and ministry, pomp and circumstance, as it were. It surprises me meth hasn't caught on in the U.K. the way it has in Australia. I understand cocaine is really popular in the U.K. now thanks in part to Columbian and Dutch drug smugglers working together. I wonder if this has any connection to the the whole "Tusibi – 2C-B" scenario… But I digress. Point is: tidy up, UK, and throw out that rubbish; bring back the Doncaster raves.

I think coke is popular some times for some groups of people that can finance it. Yeah, haven't heard of anyone I know using meth. Speed used to be a thing back in the day but even that not so much. I could be completely wrong though.

A not small amount of online retailers explicitly say they are resellers. I once came across a onion for a Dutch supplier who was selling to retailers. So if tomorrow the evidence came out that some dutch mega suppliers were responsible for the whole situation I wouldn't be surprised. Some of those EU reports say something along those lines anyway.

There was a cull of university chemistry departments in the UK a while back. Don't know if it has recovered much. And now our 18 year olds can get an A in Maths by scoring about 52%. So I guess we have to rely on other countries to produce our drugs

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Just did a little analysis of the uk vendors of crystal mdma on 5 of the markets.

Total vendors: 58
Number mentioning imported from Holland: 27 (47%) [+1 mentioning Germany]

Also noticed that 13 vendors seemed very similar (using the same elaborate text in their product descriptions, and some similar photos), and another group of 2 that seemed suspiciously similar.

With these combined:
Total vendors adjusted: 45
Number mentioning imported from Holland: 24 (53%) [+1 mentioning Germany]

Only one vendor stood out as saying anything other than bland cliches (dutch fire, etc...), and talked about it being synthed from safrole. I take it with a large pinch of salt but at least the took the trouble to write something different.

 

[unodelacosa]

I think coke is popular some times for some groups of people that can finance it.

Or groups of people who have someone else subsidize their coke expense (read: young and/or good-looking women in the company of people hoping to get laid.).

Yeah, haven't heard of anyone I know using meth.

Yeah, they do though. There is a scene for it. I wonder if, in part, that's bc Europe and the UK don't watch chems as closely as the US does.

Speed used to be a thing back in the day but even that not so much.

Speed paste has always seemed to be more of a German thing to me, a Yankee from New York.

And now our 18 year olds can get an A in Maths by scoring about 52%.

Is that true? Well, test scores aren't the only metric of scholastic mastery. I have a hard time believing the country home to Alan Turing who broke the German Enigma machine at Bletchley Park as going slack in the field of mathematics.

So I guess we have to rely on other countries to produce our drugs

Yeah like most countries. Doesn't that make more sense? India is the reason the UK has such cheap Ketamine, for example. Meanwhile in the US, we've got Big Pharma lobbying to Congress and getting involved in fiascos like the fentanyl crisis and the pill farms, and bc so many of the Big Pharma companies are based in the US, medicines are very expensive in America, and it sucks, especially when you don't have government-subsidized healthcare (for the most part). If you're dying of something and want to roll the dice with some experimental, cutting edge treatments, the U.S. innovates w/ capitalist fervor, which is favorable in this instance at least, despite the rampant crapitalism.

Only one vendor stood out as saying anything other than bland cliches (dutch fire, etc...), and talked about it being synthed from safrole. I take it with a large pinch of salt but at least the took the trouble to write something different.

Lol, I feel your pain. Bunch of bullshit lies, typically. That kinda shit does get tedious. Just like a lot of meth dealers will claim their product is from pseudoephedrine instead of P-2-P. And just because someone started with Sassafras oil, doesn't mean they know what they're doing or how to clean their product properly. You're wise to take this with a large grain of hydrochloride salt…

 

[Tranced]

Just did a little analysis of the uk vendors of crystal mdma on 5 of the markets.

Total vendors: 58
Number mentioning imported from Holland: 27 (47%) [+1 mentioning Germany]

Also noticed that 13 vendors seemed very similar (using the same elaborate text in their product descriptions, and some similar photos), and another group of 2 that seemed suspiciously similar.

With these combined:
Total vendors adjusted: 45
Number mentioning imported from Holland: 24 (53%) [+1 mentioning Germany]

Only one vendor stood out as saying anything other than bland cliches (dutch fire, etc...), and talked about it being synthed from safrole. I take it with a large pinch of salt but at least the took the trouble to write something different.

My uk Benzo vendor just announced he's doing non prescription stuff - including canadian MDMA!! Never heard of that in the UK

Given Canadians have widespread access to MDA crystals I'd imagine their precursor source is maybe sassafras, which the lack of is often an explanation to people perceiving MDMA to be less real than it once was. Personally, I think a lot of people didn't know they were doing MDMA +MDA a lot of the time, before 2008 in the UK.

Personally I've just received 2 x 3.5 gram absolutely gorgeous crystals in the UK and they are pure white, and I think it's fucking brilliant.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

My uk Benzo vendor just announced he's doing non prescription stuff - including canadian MDMA!! Never heard of that in the UK

Given Canadians have widespread access to MDA crystals I'd imagine their precursor source is maybe sassafras, which the lack of is often an explanation to people perceiving MDMA to be less real than it once was. Personally, I think a lot of people didn't know they were doing MDMA +MDA a lot of the time, before 2008 in the UK.

Personally I've just received 2 x 3.5 gram absolutely gorgeous crystals in the UK and they are pure white, and I think it's fucking brilliant.

Interesting. I did a long time ago get some Canadian MDA and it was pretty much just as poor as the mdma I've been having online, albeit more mda-like. I've seen some interesting Canadian listings but they were all domestic only so never tried them.

Hopefully without coming across rude, can I ask if you've been experiencing bad mdma in the uk, and that this is fundamentally different? It's just that I hear people say something is good and then it kinda turns out to be the same as the rest. Does it give you intense euphoria for example?

 

[Tranced]

Interesting. I did a long time ago get some Canadian MDA and it was pretty much just as poor as the mdma I've been having online, albeit more mda-like. I've seen some interesting Canadian listings but they were all domestic only so never tried them.

Hopefully without coming across rude, can I ask if you've been experiencing bad mdma in the uk, and that this is fundamentally different? It's just that I hear people say something is good and then it kinda turns out to be the same as the rest. Does it give you intense euphoria for example?

Hey man, I've spoken a fair bit about it because I just do not get the whole losing the magic thing. I took MDMA 21 years ago for the first time, and I still absolutely love it.

I will say that what I've had was incredibly euphoric and a quality experience, last night.

@F.U.B.A.R. - Do you tend to find the pure white crystal stuff to be "proper" over the tan iirc?

To be fair, I absolutely always get pure white crystal MDMA. I consider that to be literally the cleanest, as in well washed, and the purist, that you can really find.