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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

overdose risk is present only combined with thing you should no
Don't believe every hyped up media report you read. The thing about DXM is that it has very low recreational appeal. I don't believe it's very popular. Most ppl who try it do not repeat the experience. It's an odd disso, and it's also strange how it's mirror image compound, levomethorphan is actually an opioid, though I don't think it's primarily active on the µ-opioid receptor; I think it's the dysphoric one, either delta of kappa…


The psychoactive component that acts in the CNS is the d-isomer. Yes, the l-isomer is also classified as a stimulant, but it has much, much weaker CNS activity than the d-isomer, yet it still causes muscular tension, tachycardia, and other less-than-pleasant effects. It's incorrect though to assess that the d-isomer lacks any of these purely physical, peripheral nervous system effects, especially if based solely on conjecture and anecdotal experience. Just take the L on this one, my dude. It's no biggie. The truth is we're lacking in research on this subject still. See for example the assessments made in this paper: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10353062/
emkee_reinvented referred to l-amph, not meth, I think? And at least your source refers to meth. Or have I missed something?
 
emkee_reinvented referred to l-amph, not meth, I think? And at least your source refers to meth. Or have I missed something?
This trait is shared in common with both the secondary and primary amines. But lets try this again. I'll include some new sources so you don't think this is purely my conjecture. Here goes:

The d-isomer of amphetamine is significantly more potent in its CNS effects than the l-isomer. It has a greater affinity for dopamine receptors, leading to a more pronounced increase in dopamine release. This contributes to its stronger stimulant and euphoric effects. It also affects norepinephrine, but to a lesser extent than l-amphetamine.

The l-isomer of amphetamine has a greater impact on the cardiovascular system due to its stronger influence on norepinephrine. While it also affects dopamine, its effects are less pronounced than those of d-amphetamine. Also, it has a longer elimination half-life. And it does provide some CNS stimulation, but it is less potent than the d-isomer.

The inclusion of both d- and l-amphetamine in Adderall is intended to provide a more balanced therapeutic effect. The combination aims to capitalize on the CNS stimulating effects of d-amphetamine while utilizing the effects of l-amphetamine. It is thought that the l-isomer may provide a smoother and longer duration of action. The different effects on neurotransmitters, and the different half lives, is thought to contribute to a more rounded therapeutic effect. The 75% d-amphetamine to 25% l-amphetamine ratio reflects the observation that d-amphetamine is more potent for the treatment of ADHD symptoms. The formulation of Adderall resulted from pharmaceutical development, and clinical trials that helped determine the ratio that proved to have the desired effects.

As to the sulfate versus the succinate salt forms of the drug, there are two things to note here. Firstly, that ostensibly the reason for the two different salt forms is that it controls the absorption rate of the drug with the desire to prolong the duration in a steadily metabolized manner. In reality, the reason for changing the formulation with different "salts" of amphetamine probably has a bit more to do with applying for and getting a new patent on the drug to extend its maker's exclusive rights to produce Adderall though this is admittedly conjecture.

Sauces:
 
I can't see different salts having crazy different absorption rates but I could very well be wrong. You're probably right about the patent nonsense although there can be argument made for enzymatic or metabolic competition between the isomers which should extend the t1/2 of D slightly as it has a slightly shorter t1/2 in literature

L amp can definitely be useful for ADHD because some patients do need the NE support. There are a bunch of different ADHD subtypes, some currently being documented and not in DSM yet. Childhood stress based/induced subtypes seem to have more NE dysregulation
 
It's interesting that you're finding such a difference in quality even with lab-tested pills. Maybe there are different synthesis methods being used now, or perhaps some adulterants that aren't being picked up in standard tests?
 
I can't see different salts having crazy different absorption rates
I know, it doesn't seem super likely as I would imagine both are pretty highly soluble in the hydrochloric acid solution known as our stomach acid. Hence why I said it was the ostensible reason for this parlor trick, but that's a guess. Perhaps their argument is sound if we dug deeper.

there can be argument made for enzymatic or metabolic competition between the isomers which should extend the t1/2 of D slightly as it has a slightly shorter t1/2 in literature
Right, that's what I was thinking, too, which is why I can't rule it out as being potentially a legit claim.

L amp can definitely be useful for ADHD because some patients do need the NE support.
No doubt. The NE could also be useful in fighting things like lethargy and narcolepsy whenever they appear in conjunction with certain forms of ADHD.

Childhood stress based/induced subtypes seem to have more NE dysregulation
That's interesting. I didn't know this. I wonder what causes the correlation.

It's interesting that you're finding such a difference in quality even with lab-tested pills. Maybe there are different synthesis methods being used now, or perhaps some adulterants that aren't being picked up in standard tests?
Welcome, @Wilahan. Yeah so those are two different ideas that have been floated many times in this thread. Perhaps this occurs sometimes and has occurred in the past… perhaps not. There's no way to be certain without having more data and that data has to be reliable. Whether this "mehDMA" occurs is not so much debatable, as there is enough testimony to validate the phenomenon, but it cannot be concluded that the cause of this is necessarily at the production level. Maybe, but that doesn't include all production. There are decent arguments on both sides as to what the exact cause is, and in fact there may be multiple reasons leading some people to have subpar experiences. It's poor logic to deduce from this that all MDMA must therefore be somehow tainted, especially considering the wide variety and number of MDMA producers in the world today (not that you're drawing this conclusion; I'm just saying this in general).

By the same logic that anecdotal evidence at least points to the fact that some people have subpar experiences with MDMA, there's more than enough anecdotal evidence to also point to the fact that real deal, clean and uncut MDMA definitely exists in the black market today as well and is blowing people's minds as much as it did in the days of the past. It's clutch to acknowledge both sides of this argument as being valid enough. Something is causing subpar MDMA experiences in some people, though not all people. This is not dramatically different than it was in the past and our views tend to bias us, of course, as much as my own opinion is subject to my own experiential biases. If anyone out there thinks the MDMA they're getting sucks, find a new dealer until you find some MDMA that blows your socks off, then stock up (if, of course, it's legal wherever you live; otherwise don't break the law, natch).
 
What Is Wrong With The MDMA Available Today?

It's Bunk. The Emperor Wears No Clothes. I'm Just Pointing Out The Obvious. They Just Figured Out A Way To Fool The Test Kits.
 
What Is Wrong With The MDMA Available Today?

It's Bunk. The Emperor Wears No Clothes. I'm Just Pointing Out The Obvious. They Just Figured Out A Way To Fool The Test Kits.
Again: it's bad logic to deduce from this that all MDMA must therefore be somehow tainted, especially considering the wide variety and number of MDMA producers in the world today.
 
That's interesting. I didn't know this. I wonder what causes the correlation.
The research is actually very new, practically born yesterday in the terms of neuroscience. There are some researchers working on elucidating the various mechanisms and separating out ADHD subtypes including sex differences. It's some very interesting work, I'm actually excited for the future revisions of the DSM




 
Does anyone here find it odd or at least weird..

We know of have heard of the N-iso Boogeyman of meth.

That this "nope dope" makes you tired similar to the meh MDMA.

That the old "magic" MDMA was typically described as a fine white powder similar to snow..

When it came to "meth" it to was similar...

You either had peanut butter meth or whatever. But it was more "powder" back then. Then "ice shards" that is known today.

A LONG LONG LONG time ago. I remember trawling Dutch forums in MDMA chemistry. I remember reading something called "GLUE BLOCK MDMA.

I don't remember much. But what I do remember is that even if you do have really pure MDMA. It's hard to make blocks of MDMA that we now see.

It's definitely possible in superlabs using what I assume/presume would be heat/pressure rapid recrystallization

What I remember most about glueblock was that "MDMA glueblock" the chunks looked "flat" and artificially grown similar to Niso or nope dope

Or it might just hell even just go back to

Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters

Determining the structural elements that define substrates and inhibitors at the monoamine transporters is critical to elucidating the mechanisms underlying these disparate functions. In this study, we addressed this question directly by generating a series of N-substituted 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine analogs that differ only in the number of methyl substituents on the terminal amine group. Starting with 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethylamphetamine (MDDMA) and 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N,N-trimethylamphetamine (MDTMA) were prepared. We evaluated the functional activities of the compounds at all three monoamine transporters in native brain tissue and cells expressing the transporters. In addition, we used ligand docking to generate models of the respective protein-ligand complexes, which allowed us to relate the experimental findings to available structural information. Our results suggest that the 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine analogs bind at the monoamine transporter orthosteric binding site by adopting one of two mutually exclusive binding modes. 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine adopt a high-affinity binding mode consistent with a transportable substrate, whereas MDDMA and MDTMA adopt a low-affinity binding mode consistent with an inhibitor, in which the ligand orientation is inverted. Importantly, MDDMA can alternate between both binding modes, whereas MDTMA exclusively binds to the low-affinity mode. Our experimental results are consistent with the idea that the initial orientation of bound ligands is critical for subsequent interactions that lead to transporter conformational changes and substrate translocation.

Which is also kinda funny because it goes back to the MTBE talk with meth in this forum different subsection


EMCDDA intelligence noted that Russia was a major source of PMK and specifically PMK that contained an unusual impurity, namely 1-(4-tert-butylphenyl)propan-2-one

Classifications

C07C45/42 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by hydrolysis

C07C45/515 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by pyrolysis, rearrangement or decomposition involving transformation of singly bound oxygen functional groups to >C = O groups the singly bound functional group being an acetalised, ketalised hemi-acetalised, or hemi-ketalised hydroxyl group

C07C45/62 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by reactions not involving the formation of >C = O groups by hydrogenation of carbon-to-carbon double or triple bonds
C07C45/74 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by reactions not involving the formation of >C = O groups by isomerisation; by change of size of the carbon skeleton by increase in the number of carbon atoms by reaction of compounds containing >C = O groups with the same or other compounds containing >C = O groups combined with dehydration

C07C45/82 Separation; Purification; Stabilisation; Use of additives by change in the physical state, e.g. crystallisation by distillation
C07C45/85 Separation; Purification; Stabilisation; Use of additives by treatment giving rise to a chemical modification

C25B3/23 Oxidation

Just so I'm not going too far out there. This is what I based it on … on the molecular similarities..a Mg bisglycinate chelate is ‘double’ bonded. A Mg Glycinate is a ‘single’ bond.
The Mg Bisglycinate chelate and or any double bonded Mineral chelate has up to 6x better absorption, vs single and or ionic magnesium(oxide).


The key: the coordinate covalent bond aka chelation bond
 
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Does anyone here find it odd or at least weird..

We know of have heard of the N-iso Boogeyman of meth.

That this "nope dope" makes you tired similar to the meh MDMA.

That the old "magic" MDMA was typically described as a fine white powder similar to snow..

When it came to "meth" it to was similar...

You either had peanut butter meth or whatever. But it was more "powder" back then. Then "ice shards" that is known today.

A LONG LONG LONG time ago. I remember trawling Dutch forums in MDMA chemistry. I remember reading something called "GLUE BLOCK MDMA.

I don't remember much. But what I do remember is that even if you do have really pure MDMA. It's hard to make blocks of MDMA that we now see.

It's definitely possible in superlabs using what I assume/presume would be heat/pressure rapid recrystallization

What I remember most about glueblock was that "MDMA glueblock" the chunks looked "flat" and artificially grown similar to Niso or nope dope

Or it might just hell even just go back to

Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters

Determining the structural elements that define substrates and inhibitors at the monoamine transporters is critical to elucidating the mechanisms underlying these disparate functions. In this study, we addressed this question directly by generating a series of N-substituted 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine analogs that differ only in the number of methyl substituents on the terminal amine group. Starting with 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethylamphetamine (MDDMA) and 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N,N-trimethylamphetamine (MDTMA) were prepared. We evaluated the functional activities of the compounds at all three monoamine transporters in native brain tissue and cells expressing the transporters. In addition, we used ligand docking to generate models of the respective protein-ligand complexes, which allowed us to relate the experimental findings to available structural information. Our results suggest that the 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine analogs bind at the monoamine transporter orthosteric binding site by adopting one of two mutually exclusive binding modes. 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine adopt a high-affinity binding mode consistent with a transportable substrate, whereas MDDMA and MDTMA adopt a low-affinity binding mode consistent with an inhibitor, in which the ligand orientation is inverted. Importantly, MDDMA can alternate between both binding modes, whereas MDTMA exclusively binds to the low-affinity mode. Our experimental results are consistent with the idea that the initial orientation of bound ligands is critical for subsequent interactions that lead to transporter conformational changes and substrate translocation.

Which is also kinda funny because it goes back to the MTBE talk with meth in this forum different subsection


EMCDDA intelligence noted that Russia was a major source of PMK and specifically PMK that contained an unusual impurity, namely 1-(4-tert-butylphenyl)propan-2-one

Classifications

C07C45/42 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by hydrolysis

C07C45/515 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by pyrolysis, rearrangement or decomposition involving transformation of singly bound oxygen functional groups to >C = O groups the singly bound functional group being an acetalised, ketalised hemi-acetalised, or hemi-ketalised hydroxyl group

C07C45/62 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by reactions not involving the formation of >C = O groups by hydrogenation of carbon-to-carbon double or triple bonds
C07C45/74 Preparation of compounds having >C = O groups bound only to carbon or hydrogen atoms; Preparation of chelates of such compounds by reactions not involving the formation of >C = O groups by isomerisation; by change of size of the carbon skeleton by increase in the number of carbon atoms by reaction of compounds containing >C = O groups with the same or other compounds containing >C = O groups combined with dehydration

C07C45/82 Separation; Purification; Stabilisation; Use of additives by change in the physical state, e.g. crystallisation by distillation
C07C45/85 Separation; Purification; Stabilisation; Use of additives by treatment giving rise to a chemical modification

C25B3/23 Oxidation

Just so I'm not going too far out there. This is what I based it on … on the molecular similarities..a Mg bisglycinate chelate is ‘double’ bonded. A Mg Glycinate is a ‘single’ bond.
The Mg Bisglycinate chelate and or any double bonded Mineral chelate has up to 6x better absorption, vs single and or ionic magnesium(oxide).


The key: the coordinate covalent bond aka chelation bond

I would be very surprised if methylamine did not attack copper, especially in the presence of methylammonium salts.


Cu2+ complexes with nonchelating methylamine (left) and chelating ethylenediamine (right) ligands



The chelate effect is the greater affinity of chelating ligands for a metal ion than that of similar nonchelating (monodentate) ligands for the same metal.

The thermodynamic principles underpinning the chelate effect are illustrated by the contrasting affinities of copper(II) for ethylenediamine (en) vs. methylamine.



Cu2+ + en ⇌ [Cu(en)]2+1
Cu2+ + 2 MeNH2 ⇌ [Cu(MeNH2)2]2+2
In (1) the ethylenediamine forms a chelate complex with the copper ion. Chelation results in the formation of a five-membered CuC2N2 ring. In (2) the bidentate ligand is replaced by two monodentate methylamine ligands of approximately the same donor power, indicating that the Cu–N bonds are approximately the same in the two reactions.
 
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It's definitely possible in superlabs using what I assume/presume would be heat/pressure rapid recrystallization
It's rmore to do with which solvents you choose to recrystallize it from. For example, recrystallizing it from MEK produces some solid and aesthetically pleasing MDMA.HCl crystals. Slow recrystallization from boiling IPA can produce some really pretty MDMA.HCl shards if done slowly, but they're delicate and easily broken into dust. Just as potent though all the same. Of course there's a lot more to crystallography than this, but I doubt clandestine chemists are employing techniques like heat/pressure rapid crystallography.
 
'Glueblock' MDMA? AFAIK as long as it's kept dry, MDMA hydrochloride is quite stable. I imagine that one might seek to reduce a given mass to it's smallest physical size for the purposes of smuggling.

It's been a decade or more since I talked to anyone involved in the trade but they informed me that decentralization was the current trend. In place of a single large lab, someone would invite people to produce it on a hobbyist/semi-professional basis in their spare time. So once a month the organizer would drive around dropping off reagents and solvents, picking up product and paying the 'cooks'. The people who produce tablets are frequently not chemists but the above model makes for much more work for the USD.

More recently I've heard that in Mexico similar tactics are used for fentanyl production. I wouldn't want anything to do with that. I suppose to a young chemistry student it may seem attractive initially but I suppose from the day you start work, it's just a matter of time before you get caught.

On the other topic:

Chelating agents represent a really unusual class of meidcation. Dimepracol (BAL - British Anti-Lewisite) was developed as a medicine to chelate arsenic which is then excreted. It seems like it's used to treat poisoning by a range of heavy metals and to treat metabolic disorders in which metals accumulate in the body.

I've never been certain if BAL is chosen because it represents the best option and/or because it was developed as a medicine.

I note that Reaxys divided organic chemistry and organo-metallic chemistry into two different databases (or at least two different packages - one to access each part).
 
Glueblock' MDMA
Glueblock MDMA was a term given either on Dutch forums or darknet forums.

Discussion was on how to make MDMA to make giant rocks.

1 of course was to let the acetone or isopropyl/methanol evaporate slowly. This made rocks but they weren't "smooth" it had a natural distinct view/look

Glueblock MDMA on the other hand was talking MDMA cuts, this not only bulked up the MDMA. It made the MDMA "smooth"
 
Glueblock MDMA was a term given either on Dutch forums or darknet forums.

Discussion was on how to make MDMA to make giant rocks.

1 of course was to let the acetone or isopropyl/methanol evaporate slowly. This made rocks but they weren't "smooth" it had a natural distinct view/look

Glueblock MDMA on the other hand was talking MDMA cuts, this not only bulked up the MDMA. It made the MDMA "smooth"
Was the point of this to dodge customs or something?
 
Was the point of this to dodge customs or something?
No people wanted "big blocks" of MDMA because they thought it was pure. Moonrocks as we would use to call em.

But REAL moonrocks look different then fake moonrocks.

Instead of growing crystals slowly this made giant rocks quicker. Introduced an undetected cut. An increase margins by 100%
No to hide they did this

As far as i know those big pressed rocks are formed with heat and pressure as I talked about earlier.

But I doubt many will do that.
 
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Ah I don't think you understand what I was trying to say...



A chelate, any of a class of coordination or complex compounds consisting of a central metal atom attached to a large molecule, called a ligand, in a cyclic or ring structure.



My chemistry might be 100% completely wrong but A LOT and I mean A LOT of the most common routes uses a lot of metal catalysts in the production of KETONE or the conversion of the AMINE



Anyways.. as explained above



Cu2+ complexes with nonchelating methylamine (left) .



A method for the synthesis of MDP2P from helional, first reported by Davis & Vallely [24], is shown in Fig. 1. In this method, helional is combined with a secondary amine to produce an enamine intermediate, which undergoes oxidative cleavage catalysed by copper (I) chloride to yield MDP2P. Spangler et al. [25] further investigated this pathway, optimizing the method using morpholine as the secondary amine and investigating different catalysts and reaction temperatures.



Basically when converting MDP2P INTO MDMA



You mix ketone and methylamine with a metal catalyst al/ hg(2), Jones reagent is a solution prepared by dissolving chromium trioxide Platinum(IV)oxide (Adam's Catalyst)
etc.

Because the methylamine and metal complex. It basically creates a molecule that "sits" in the receptor and it blocks the effect of MDMA to make it safer on the body.


In the context of safer medications, "ligands" refer to molecules that bind to specific receptors, and the development of biased ligands is a promising approach for creating analgesics with fewer side effects, like those associated with traditional opioids.

Biased ligands are molecules that selectively activate certain pathways or signaling mechanisms associated with a receptor, while minimizing or avoiding activation of other pathways that lead to unwanted side effects
 
No people wanted "big blocks" of MDMA because they thought it was pure. Moonrocks as we would use to call em.

In my limited experience, when MDMA freebase is salted, it forms very clean white microcrystals. Washing with acetone is extremely effective in removing discolouration. Grinding the crystals and recrystalization really does work. I just Googled 'moonrocks'. Well, my Merck Index informs me that when recrystalized from isopropanol/diethyl ether has a melting-point of 152-153°C and I checking three other sources, the same values are given.

Now I'm not sure how stable MDMA hydrochloride is in it's liquid form but I would begin by purging a vessel with dry nitrogen and melting a sample to get an idea of it's physical properties and stability. I suppose I might then allow air or even pure oxygen into the vessel just to see if oxidation takes place. But presuming it IS stable under dry nitrogen, coouldn't one then simply allow it to cool?

The thing to bear in mind is that the product is a raecemate of the two enantiomers which could complicate things. Luckily Nichols et all analyzed the crystals via X-ray crystalography.

Acta Cryst. (1998). C54, 229-231

The paper describes the crystals as orthorhombic, primitive - Pca2₁ the unit cell possesses an elongated c axis containing Z=4 molecules. I'm not sure if the Bravais lattice provides further insights. Obviously the crystal is held together by intermolecular hydrogen bonds between the protonated secondary amine and the chloride ion.

These images speak a thousand words:


Although the smallest crystals, I judge the first image to be the purest product and it does present orthorhombic crystals.

DOI:10.1016/j.vibspec.2020.103115

I found a few references unavailable to Sci-Hub but a snippet notes 'It is only observed in one orthorhombic polymorph in ambient conditions'.

I was unsable to find any measurement of the density of MDMA.HCl. If one had the appropriate tools, it would be interesting to confirm the denisty of both phases.

I'm not conversant with the term 'moonrock' but I googled a few images and oh boy, it's not hard to spot the fake stuff. Pure MDMA isn't yellow or orange or brown... or purple or pink or blue.

Am I correct in thinking that if one has a genuine moonrock, if a white light is shone onto the crystal, part of the light will be reflected on the various crystal bounderies but that light which exits the crystal on the opposite side will be essentially remain white? Or, put another way, when pure, MDMA hydrochlroide crystals do not absorb visible light.
 
Am I correct in thinking that if one has a genuine moonrock, if a white light is shone onto the crystal, part of the light will be reflected on the various crystal bounderies but that light which exits the crystal on the opposite side will be essentially remain white? Or, put another way, when pure, MDMA hydrochlroide crystals do not absorb visible light.


IDK That is above my chemistry grade. But what I CAN say is reading some stuff yesterday

The "nope dope" N-iso Boogeyman meth acted similar.

N-iso allowed light partials thru, and on the other side the meth/ MDMA was more "opaque" not see thru did not let light thru and was overall a more active product...
 
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In my limited experience, when MDMA freebase is salted, it forms very clean white microcrystals. Washing with acetone is extremely effective in removing discolouration. Grinding the crystals and recrystalization really does work. I just Googled 'moonrocks'. Well, my Merck Index informs me that when recrystalized from isopropanol/diethyl ether has a melting-point of 152-153°C and I checking three other sources, the same values are given.

Now I'm not sure how stable MDMA hydrochloride is in it's liquid form but I would begin by purging a vessel with dry nitrogen and melting a sample to get an idea of it's physical properties and stability. I suppose I might then allow air or even pure oxygen into the vessel just to see if oxidation takes place. But presuming it IS stable under dry nitrogen, coouldn't one then simply allow it to cool?

The thing to bear in mind is that the product is a raecemate of the two enantiomers which could complicate things. Luckily Nichols et all analyzed the crystals via X-ray crystalography.

Acta Cryst. (1998). C54, 229-231

The paper describes the crystals as orthorhombic, primitive - Pca2₁ the unit cell possesses an elongated c axis containing Z=4 molecules. I'm not sure if the Bravais lattice provides further insights. Obviously the crystal is held together by intermolecular hydrogen bonds between the protonated secondary amine and the chloride ion.

These images speak a thousand words:


Although the smallest crystals, I judge the first image to be the purest product and it does present orthorhombic crystals.

DOI:10.1016/j.vibspec.2020.103115

I found a few references unavailable to Sci-Hub but a snippet notes 'It is only observed in one orthorhombic polymorph in ambient conditions'.

I was unsable to find any measurement of the density of MDMA.HCl. If one had the appropriate tools, it would be interesting to confirm the denisty of both phases.

I'm not conversant with the term 'moonrock' but I googled a few images and oh boy, it's not hard to spot the fake stuff. Pure MDMA isn't yellow or orange or brown... or purple or pink or blue.

Am I correct in thinking that if one has a genuine moonrock, if a white light is shone onto the crystal, part of the light will be reflected on the various crystal bounderies but that light which exits the crystal on the opposite side will be essentially remain white? Or, put another way, when pure, MDMA hydrochlroide crystals do not absorb visible light.
These images speak a thousand words:

? Did you read the whole thread? Nobody is making 300g rocks waiting basically... That would take FOREVER AND they sure won't be that big...



That leaves pressure and heat methods or a cut.... Or enantiopure compound... Not Impossible just unlikely and if it was pure it would probably be sold as such...

As far as color that can be attributed to workup?


There is both GREEN and RED MDP2P OIL... so I've read.

The green mdma also could be attributed to Chromium salts, purple probably Jones, brown well that's obvious that's probably left overs from mdp2p conversion etc etc

I say this because multiple recrystallization leaves layers of different colors behind XD





Reguardless, there ARE clear and opaque moon rocks




At present, many researches have mainly focused on the detection of MA [16–23], while the simultaneous determination of MA and its isomer N-IBA in suspected drugs is rarely studied. The commonly used methods including infrared spectroscopy, colloidal gold-based immunoassays, and color tests are not suitable for the discrimination between MA and N-IBA since their poor specificity [24–28]. GC/MS analysis in full scan mode has been used to simultaneously quantify MA and N-IBA in suspected drugs [25, 27, 28]. However, the two compounds were hard to be effectively discriminated by GC/MS when there was a large concentration difference between them. Because the retention times for MA and N-IBA chromatographic separation were very close due to their high similar chemical structure, the compound with high concentration would interfere with another one with low concentration as the two compounds yield similar ion fragments for detection [25]. Liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) has fully proved itself as a powerful tool for detecting and confirming the presence of drugs in complex matrices [29, 30]. In consideration of the highly similar ion fragments between MA and N-IBA, the commonly used LC-MS/MS is insufficient to separate the MA from N-IBA. Hence, to develop a high efficient chromatographic separation technique in LC-MS/MS is highly desirable for the simultaneous determination of MA and its isomer N-IBA.

yep, you nailed it with the opaqueness. "they have been told that they are large clear crystals.( watching breaking bad, and dealers trying to sell this crap.). But its so far from the truth by lying to your face. Because N-iso makes exactly that, large clear see thru square shaped crystals( like A utah mountain plateau) Also N-iso is brittle and can break with fingers easily. The way they made D- meth 20 years ago used to produce large irregular shaped crystals.(like a rocky mountain )they were also never really clear they were opaque like frosted glass and were very dense that were almost impossible to break with your fingers,(crushing marble sized peice on table broke my debit card in half)."


The best MDA I had was as HARD as a ROCK. Looked like a rock etc. Looked UGLY.

But that hydrogen bonding was as hard as a literal rock
 
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I did point out that MDMA hydrochloride can be melted without any solvent being present and as it cools, it will return to it's solid state.

So yes, absolutely heat is almost certainly one of the key tools. I'm not entirely certain how you would consider using pressure. To press microcrystals into a block?

I found a few more images of 'moonrock' and understand (I think) why that name was chosen. The first images I found didn't make it clear.


There is no clear crystal lattice but there are voids (holes) and that second moonrock from the left has a flat surface. As if it's solidified against a surface.

So I would guess that a (possibly pyrex) vessel was filled with microcrystalline MDMA hydrochloride, the vessel was heated until all of the product melts and then it was allowed to cool. As you can imagine, even if you press down on a powder, there will still be tiny air pockets. It's my suspicion that the voids are the result of that air flowing together and forming bubbles.

So I guess that when MDMA hydrochloride melts, it's still a thick (high viscocity) liquid. Maybe something like clarified honey. Maybe a little thicker. That being the case, those voids won't bubble up very quickly hence those sperical holes in the moonrock.

It MAY also explain the colours. It may be the case that if the melting and setting process aren't carried out under dry nitrogen (or other cover gas), it's possible that the MDMA oxidizes or otherwise changes chemically.
The one thing I now understand (I think) is that by performing the melting and casting of the product, it will be at or near it's maximum density. If a given weight takes up less space, it's easier to smuggle. As you mentioned, it's also possible that intermediates were left in the product and at least some of them will form dimers. So while the product may not become 'less pure', it could be the case that the impurities change.

I also note that the second rock from the left seems to be composed of two different coloured layers. I don't know why that should be the case but one theory is that a liquid layer of product was poured onto a previously cooled layer of solid product. It looks like the voids are more common in the lighter coloured layer i.e. the air bubble were rising.

But one thing is for sure, there is no reason why moonrock is inherently purer than the microcrystals that were around 30+ years ago. BUT it does mean that a cutting agent could only be added before the product was converted into moonrock. No middleman could bulk it out. So I think I can see why people might trust it more.

I guess we all like our own product and for me, those sparkly white microcrystals are what I am used to. One thing that EVERY reference agrees on is that when pure, the product is a brilliant white. But then, so are many cuts. So while a brilliant white doesn't prove purity, any other colour proves lack of purity.
 
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