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What is the opiate downfall?

Quale-
You aren't in this world to experience pleasure. You are here to find out if your genes are any good. That's your reason for existence. IF you are functioning properly, if you are PSYCHOLOGICALLY HEALTHY, you are doing whatever you can do to make sure your genes do well. There are many different methods of doing this, but if you aren't pursuing one of them, you aren't meeting your intended goal in this life, and you aren't psych. healthy.
Pleasure is a state, but it isn't what you and other drug users are making of it. Too much of a dependence on pleasure is a problem with the mind.
Hard to explain, you need the background. Think- Compulsive Masturbation.
 
People, when submurged in water, are unable to process the oxygen in the water. The result is a lack of oxygen reaching the brain or other cells. People under water for prolongued periods of time can suffer brain damage, or even death. So lets remember that water, one of our great lifegiving chemicals, causes braindamage. But Deus, thats an indirect action! And braindamaged caused by a heroin overdose isn't? Come on, at some point you need to stop nitpicking and realize that 'YES! HEROIN IS A DRUG! YES IT CAN HAVE NEGATIVE EFFECTS! YES YOU HAVE TO USE IT RESPONSIBLY!'. I don't think anyone is arguing that you DON'T need to use it responsibly. But with the proper and responsible use, that some (not all) of us are able to exert, it can be used safely.
[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Deus121 ]
 
Just an observation-- We don't really understand what the deal is with the receptors for opiates in the brain. They aren't understood yet. Not like dopamine and seratonin receptors are.
That being the case, is it surprising that we understand the damage we cause dopamine and seratoinin systmes, but we haven't yet understood the damage we are causing the opiate systems?
Most psychedelic drugs cause whacked out activity patterns in specific parts of the brain, it's self evident that these aren't good for those parts.
 
Hey, everything is indirect to some extent!
IN any event, I don't think of it like that. I think of it like this--
Heroin users, suppress their breathing. That suppressed breathing, inevitably, reduces oxygen levels in the brain. This happens INEVITABLY. Those reduced oxygen levels result in some minor damage. Repeat three times a day for a number of years (not unusual). Throw in a handful of minor overdoses.
I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't other methods, I actually think there are. I think that the receptors will probably begin to "retract" as happens in other areas... this is more of a short-term damage, but, well, I mean... it isn't good, either. The receptors have other uses, besides getting you junked out... I don't happen to know what they are, PhreeX has offered a guess.
I also believe that the abnormal functioning patterns in the brain which we create may result in... well... I mean... frankly more "shit" (electrolytes...) floating around than needs to be in certain areas... neurotoxicity, you know the drill.
And there is damage from DXM and inhalants, and nitrous oxide, and... ketamine... that is well established, I mean, it's really a general trend... using the brain's receptors in ways they wasn't meant to be used isn't good for them. Abnormal brain states, activity patterns, are bad for you... they cause "shit" to float around in the brain for too long... etc. I don't see why heroin would be the "wonder drug" the one drug out there which doesn't fuck with your brain... I mean, I can see why PhreeX might want to believe this, given his current usage patterns.
And then, I mean, heroin does cross the magic line in the sand (Blood/Brain), and we need to ask ourselves, what is the chemical itself DOING in those areas of the brain where it isn't received...not just "is the method of action causing damage", but, is its extracurricular activities in the brain causing damage. It's not a logical leap of faith to realize that putting a chemical in the brain which was never intended to be there, whose presence evolution was unable to account for and protect us from, in fairly large quantities, isn't helping.
 
You also must understand, that opiates are an ACCEPTED mode of curing pain. Its not unusual for people to be on opiates for years, prescribed by a doctor. Calling opiates "junk" that float around your brain...That seems like a rather inaccurate description. Many chemicals enter the brain. Also most of the studies of "damage" from the other drugs you stated is not completed. A lot of them are studies on rat brains, and have never occured in human studies. Brain damage as a result to drugs is still very unknown. But what we can safely say is that opiates seem to be a lot less harmful than A LOT of other drugs out there.
 
Preliminary warning: Timerare, don't take this personally.... it is food for thought... you are wrong on many points, no indictment of you... happens to us all. Just think about it...
We don't really understand what the deal is with the receptors for opiates in the brain. They aren't understood yet. Not like dopamine and seratonin receptors are.
Ummmm, not true. In fact, while the opioid receptors and endogenous opioids were discovered in the early 70s -- two decades after SE and DA -- they've still been heavily researched and characterized. Now, we don't understand the brain systems involving any neurotransmitter by any possible stretch of the term, and DA/SE systems aren't any better characterized than the opioid system. However, as a drug, opioids have been very thoroughly investigated, as a result of their amazingly widespread use for over a century now. We know more of the consequences of opiod use than nearly any other drug.
OPIOIDS ARE NOT BRAIN DAMAGING. They do not decrease mental acuity, attention, memory, anything. In fact they're rarely toxic at all. This is as well-established medical fact as you get. Go ask a doctor, any doctor; read any book that covers them. Opioids haven't just been tested in addicts; pain patients have been using opioids for millenia, and medically for over a century. They are amazingly, remarkably safe. It's kinda surprising a priori, but it's true. In fact they're also basically never addictive when given for pain, even in high doses. I've heard doctors call the possibility of developing opioid addiction from treatment "so small as to be irrelevant." Also shocking, huh?
Now, brain damage may indeed occur from opioid-induced hypoxia. This is only an issue in overdose; opioids do not induce serious respiratory depression except at very high overdoses, especially in tolerant users. Living in Denver or climbing Mt Whitney is gonna cause you a LOT more hypoxia and concurrent brain damage than a normal opioid habit.
And all this talk about brain damage NEEDS TO BE KEPT IN PERSPECTIVE!!! You damage your brain every fucking day. Hit your head against a wall, you kill some cells. Hold your breath too long -- kill some cells. Stay up all night -- damage. Have a glass of wine -- brain damage. Hell, living kills your brain cells! Your mental acuity typically declines around 10% every decade after you're 30 or 40.... that's a LOT of brain cells. So EVEN IF opioids were brain damaging, they would still have to SIGNIFICANTLY brain damaging to make any difference.
Any drug causes brain damage. It's that simple. Drugs are chemicals which don't belong in the brain in the quantities that they are introduced in.
Again, NO! By this reasoning, you should become a Christian scientist. Penicillin? Doesn't belong there, will fuck you up. Aspirin? God, no, watch out! That multivitamin? For the love of everything holy, don't even think about it!
The fact is, the brain is FAR from perfect. It's a sort of shitty, evolutionarily-inspired collection of cheap hacks, pieced together over time. It works well sometimes, but not others. In some people it's really broken. Ever met a schizophrenic, or someone with an extreme case of bipolar? They very badly NEED drugs, their brains are in horrible shambles to begin with. Now, by virtue of the brain being complicated, indeed most compounds will cause more harm than help. But we don't even consider the VAST MAJORITY of those. We call them names and make sure they stay FAR AWAY from us.
You aren't in this world to experience pleasure. You are here to find out if your genes are any good. That's your reason for existence... Hard to explain, you need the background
Sorry, that's TOTAL BULLSHIT. Maybe you believe this, but I'm telling you, it's news to the rest of the world! Philosophers and theologians have been debating this question for millenia, and basically everyone comes up with their own answer as to "why I'm here" because it sounds good to them.
As quale said, you CAN'T derive is from ought. Evolutionarily, you might argue that human beings developed by virtue of their ability to reproduce effectively. So what? That doesn't say anything about what I should do. Evolutionarily I developed the ability to shit on the ground and wipe my ass clean with my hand. Does that mean I ought to do that now? FUCK NO! Personally I prefer a toilet and tissues, thank you very much. I also like being happy and fulfilled, too, fuck reproduction.
By your reasoning... having a vasectomy would be THE MOST DESPICABLE FUCKING ACT I could ever commit. Uh, no. You should also be having unprotected sex with strangers when you can .. chances are it ain't gonna bite you in the ass, and many of those women will still raise your babies. (sorry if you're a girl!) You evolved to do that too, if you'll note... that's why you get horny and lustful.
Finally... writing this rant has brought a thought to my mind.... would you call yourself an "Objectivist?" Or a "student of Objectivism?" Your ideas sound similar to those of that hideous, dogmatic, close-minded meme.
Care,
Zorn
 
We understand the seratonin and dopamine receptors better than we understand the Opiod Receptors. It's that simple. They are indicated in specific diseases, they are manipulated through engineered drugs, we know what the deal is with them. Yeah, we discovered endorphins a while ago, so what. They give us satisfaction like we accomplished something. They are "pleasure after the fact". But the thing is, with heroin... we didn't accomplish *anything* but a feeling of accomplishment!
We can't establish a lack of brain damage, merely establish our current inability to detect the brain damage which, a priori, we have determined is going to result from doing things we aren't supposed to do to the brain. I hate to say it, but current technologies don't really enable us to detect the types of damage that I am hypothesizing.
Secondly, you are talking about Opiods, I am talking about Opiates. Specifically, heroin. Comparing opiods in general to heroin is like comparing sugar to methamphetamine.
What you have or haven't heard doctors say is irrelevant. Frankly being a doctor doesn't necessitate much knowledge about this particular topic. In general I don't have as much respect for doctors as I used to after having known a few pre-med kids. It's a new variation on Garbage in, Garbage out. :) .
Eh, that's all debateable. Under normal circumstances you increase your breathing rate to meet problems in the environment. Yes, there is a system. :) Heroin fucks with the system, causes hypoxia. Therefore, living in Denver, you are going to ACCOUNT for the problem... heroin fucks with the very system by which you account for the problem! That's the problem. You stop giving a fuck. Just like you let your cigarette burn your hand for a couple seconds before you drop it when you are stoned on MJ, so too do you let your lack of oxygen kill a few brain cells before you decide to breath again on heroin. Define normal usage, and yes, it's all relative.
As far as your observations of chemicals in teh brain-- Psychoactive chemicals which don't belong in the brain that get there... thats what I meant. Eesh. Wasn't that self evident?
"Sorry, that's total bullshit" you say.
Well, from a psychological perspective, that's what you are here for. I measure your mental health based on whether you are doing a good job of accomplishing your objectives, whether you are pissing people off while doing them, and whether you are happy with the way things are going. In the case of drug use you are failing 1 and two, and lying to me about three. In most cases. Drug users are kind of like prostitutes, they would get out if they could, but the very circumstances which forced them in, keep them there.
I don't mean "should" as in morally. I mean "Should" as in, your original intent. Your basic standard way of going about things is the way you should function, deviation from that which is abnormal, atypical, and pissing someone off, is also pathological. Simple enough. Psychology is based on that, don't ya know?
If you have a vasectomy before having had kids, and didn't save some sperm or anything... frankly I think you should have your own DSM-IV category. You aren't functioning properly. Incidently, without taking a poll I can assure you that that is an EXCEEDINGLY rare thing for people to do. Abnormal, Atypical, against normal healthy functioning, and it is disturbing me.
As far as unprotected sex with strangers when you can... you'd be surprised. Hard to explain but...well... in the older societies where survival was more difficult, babies did kind of need a father more than they do now... so, we evolved to try to fuck as many women as we can and ultimately settle down. I think that's what most people do. Women evolved to only give it up if they thought the man planned on settling down. Men evolved to kind of "fake it". you know the way it is. Most people do it that way, like I said.
It's not about Objectivism, its about the concept of mental health... and mental health means functioning in the way you should be functioning under your current conditions. The easiest way to tell is to look at your own and other peoples gut feeligns about how well you are functioning, and how everyone else in similar situations is functioning... if people are feeling bad, or if you are deviating, then you aren't functioning well. Is it so tough to understand? It's MENTAL HEALTH. Eesh.
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[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Timerare2 ]
 
There have been plenty of studies does that examinethe action by which opioids work.. it's a simple binding to the Delta, Kappa, and Mu receptors.. the entire "lack of oxygen" theory is really without much merritt .. there is *some* truth to it, and the real risk is really when one takes large doses then goes to sleep - the lack of fresh oxygen circulating can cause respiratory problems... but as for brain cells dying from lack of oxygen - we have chronic pain patients that have been on doses of narcotics so large it would put any heroin junkie to shame - they are not cooking their brain ..
The body is an incredible thing, and it can take a lot more then you think.. I am regular opioid user, and my breathing is hardly depressed.. if anything, the drugs give me more energy - right now my pule is higher then if I were sober .. believe it if you will, but there have been plenty of long-term studies done on narcotics and it's been proven that narcotics are a very safe means of treatment.. to be fair I will admit there are risks -
1) Addiction - this is hardly causing damage to ones person, it can, however, ruin your life ..
2) Overdose - again, this is totally in the hand of the user.. too much and you OD ..
3) Respiratory problems that reasult when you sleep under the influance - simple, don't go to sleep after taking a large dose..
If you look at EVERY OTHER DRUG and compare it to opioids (I wont say heroin as so many opioids are much the same) you will find that opioids are REALLY among the safest ... EVERYTHING carries a rick - hell, you kill brain cells when you inhale, but with opioids, the body adjusts over time.. when you first start taking them you will experience side effects such as constipation, and slowed breathing - well, over time this goes away.. sure, at first when you;re on chronic narcotics not shitting for 9 days can do bad things to your colon, but after a month of being on the narcotics, you're regular again .. same with breathing - when I first started, my breathing was really depressed at night, well, that passed...
Sorry, I just don't buy that narcotics are as dangerous or damaging as you make them out to do...
If you want to be "100% healthy" then eat your veggies, excersize, and done introduce any forgine chemicals into your body... but if you do decide to find something for your self-medication, opioids get a mark in my book for safety!
But hey, to each his own! I have been doing this for 3 years with no noticible signs of damage .. I make it a point to frequently check my breathing and blood pressure - all is normal .. a recent physical showed I was in outstanding health...
You make some valid points, but EVERYTHING causes brain damage - opiates don't cause anymore damage then taking a deep breath ...
"Heroin" has the stigma is being "evil" .. so we just HAVE to find something bad about it.. aside from addiction and overdose, well, it would seem you're arguement holds little water..
But hey, throw out some journal ref's and back your claims up..
You can: opioids cause brain damage - prove it!
 
http://numedx.com/stories/v3n3medicineref.html
Says, "On CT brain scans, chronic opiate abuse is associated with brain atrophy (shrinkage), independent of HIV infection."
And references
Ploechl W, Eder H, Kasper S. Cerebral CT findings in male opioid-dependent patients: stereological, planimetric and linear measurements. Psych Res. 1998; 83(3):139—147.
Goes on to say,
"However, it is not clear whether this brain atrophy is due to long-term opiate-induced neurotoxicity or to the effects of drug overdose, which can kill neurons due to ischemia (lack of blood and oxygen to the brain)."
Like I said, the real scientists aren't sure yet. Can we end this discussion?
And for the record, if I felt like wasting my time, which I don't, I could come back with 4 or 5 references that possitively correlate fucked up brain scans (of various types), with heroin usage. Your response will be "Outside factors, and overdose involvement". I'll say "No way to know.". So let's just not take it that far?
[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Timerare2 ]
 
Timerare, I don't say this often, but you are really full of shit! And the sad thing is you also seem to be too cocky to consider the possiblility. Now I really have to work, but I will respond to you later... in the meantime, you evaded my question:
Would you call yourself an Objectivist, or one who subscribes in part/whole to that "philosophy"?
Now it doesn't matter for your arguments of course, but it will allow me to address them in terms you may better understand. And it will also improve my view of humanity... Objectivism has a postitive prognosis in 95%+ of cases. ;)
 
I see this getting ugly...
And on that note, well will close this.. if someone wants to come back with civilized discussion about the "risks" of opiate use, hey, more power to them...
But I maintain, the action by which heroin (and other opioids) works is really rather harmless..
I have yet to see anything to convince me otherwise...
 
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