What age do you think you will die?

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

No need to apologise for sidetracking the thread. Threads like this tend to go off-topic by their very nature. It's probably a good thing.

With regard to Buddhism, a path that asserts that "everything is sorrow" could hardly have the gall to reward its followers with more sorrow, hence the omission of an 'afterlife' as such.

You can convert to Judaism by the way. It's entirely possible. Whether you'd want to is entirely your own business.

So the reward in Buddhism is that you get to die and leave this sorrow behind?

I sort of knew I could convert to Judaism, but it only seems to be the liberal branches who would allow me to convert, and I side with the more orthodox/fundamental side of the religion that as 'Gods people' as it were if you weren't born one then God hasn't chosen you to one of his guiding people. If that makes sense? Plus the Torah gives a different set of rules and practices for getting into heaven - if you are a gentile you only really have to follow the commandments to get in, but as a Jew you must follow many other rules or face punishment. So by following Christianity, if the Jews are right, it is a fairly safe bet that I would get in any way. Ka-ching.

 

[Mugz]

I'm really surprised that this thread has devolved into a debate about religion 8)

 

[parttime crackhead]

To live your life a certain way because you are trying to make sure you have fun when you're dead is pretty sad in my opinion.

 

[Jabberwocky]

well, we see how long it goes on for and if no one else appears to mind!!!

i should say i really don't believe in free will because current science states something preposterous: if we have free will then elementary physical particles must do too. . i can't remember the precise details but there are also some fancy versions of the delayed choice experiments which back up the 'strong free will theorem.' if you're really interested in the details pm me i can find you the references.

in addition. the fact we start implementing decisions before consciously making them kinda means we must be working with a really broad definition of free will here.....

so if we prove free will doesn't exist, will that be proof that god doesn't exist? am i going to hitchikerstyle poof into a puff of logic now because religion requires faith not proof?

 

[Myshkin]

So the reward in Buddhism is that you get to die and leave this sorrow behind?

You only leave the cycle of reincarnation after you've perfected and fully cleansed yourself, so it's not a reward that comes quickly by any means.

Judaism doesn't really have a Heaven; there's Sheol, which is the place of the dead but it's not the same thing. There's a 'world to come' (ha-'olam ha-ba) spoken of too, but traditionally there's also a belief in resurrection which some strands of Judaism now reject. Confused? Speak to a rabbi.

Believe it or not you can actually convert to Orthodox Judaism, though it's not encouraged as such and they don't actively seek converts. They also require you to do a lot of studying in advance. Sounds like you're set on JC to me though. Thanks for having the courage to disclose your beliefs anyway. It can easily leave you open to ridicule or hostility, as I'm sure you know all too well.

I'm really surprised that this thread has devolved into a debate about religion

It was inevitable really. It is about dying after all...

 

[Mugz]

I believe in free will just as I believe in the multiverse theory. I think that our conciousness is not connected to one single multiverse but moves around according to our free will. Is hard to explain exactly what I mean though.

 

[Jabberwocky]

yeah. multiverse theory is an incredibly successful interpretation of our best current science though, whereas that same science appears to be shooing out free wiil.

albeit in the relative state interpretation of QM, the multiverse theory I'm on about, the universes are causally separated after splitting so your free will can't move about it, unless its some unphysical thing, in which case how does it interact with my physical body blah blah blah.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

To live your life a certain way because you are trying to make sure you have fun when you're dead is pretty sad in my opinion.

I see the benefits of living my life this way. It is quite easy to see why a lot of the teachings can be seen to be for your own good or the good of those around you. It's not like i'm actively trying to notch up browny points for a better time in heaven or something.

 

[Mugz]

albeit in the relative state interpretation of QM, the multiverse theory I'm on about, the universes are causally separated after splitting so your free will can't move about it, unless its some unphysical thing, in which case how does it interact with my physical body blah blah blah.

I see your point but my personal beliefs are that the conciousness is not a physcial thing and that is why it can easily move between multiverses instantly every time on splits. Of course there will never be any way to test this theory but it is what I believe.

 

[Myshkin]

so if we prove free will doesn't exist, will that be proof that god doesn't exist?

In a word, no.

If we're speaking of the Judeo-Christian God then the esoteric literature (as opposed to exoteric works such as what the world knows as The Bible) then the divine is spoken of as being ultimately ineffable anyway, therefore making its existence impossible to prove or disprove.

A handy get-out clause? Quite possibly.

Study the esoteric doctrines, apocryphal texts and history of world religions, however, and you might be surprised at how far many of them deviate from the dogma which is more widely recognised as being the foundation of the religion itself.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

You only leave the cycle of reincarnation after you've perfected and fully cleansed yourself, so it's not a reward that comes quickly by any means.

Judaism doesn't really have a Heaven; there's Sheol, which is the place of the dead but it's not the same thing. There's a 'world to come' (ha-'olam ha-ba) spoken of too, but traditionally there's also a belief in resurrection which some strands of Judaism now reject. Confused? Speak to a rabbi.

Believe it or not you can actually convert to Orthodox Judaism, though it's not encouraged as such and they don't actively seek converts. They also require you to do a lot of studying in advance. Sounds like you're set on JC to me though. Thanks for having the courage to disclose your beliefs anyway. It can easily leave you open to ridicule or hostility, as I'm sure you know all too well.



It was inevitable really. It is about dying after all...

Hmm that is very interesting. It's strange, i've looked into Janism, Sikism, Taoism, Paganism, and Hinduism, (and a few others i've probably missed) but i've never had a proper long look at Judaism because I thought I had a fairly good understanding. I will have to do some more research and report back. It took me nigh on forever to settle on a denomination in Christianity that fit with my beliefs, and in the end I just decided that I wasn't Catholic and that if I had to make a choice I would probably go to Mormon services. Luckily my wifes church back home is protestant echumenical and that is the best place i've been to so far.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

well, we see how long it goes on for and if no one else appears to mind!!!

i should say i really don't believe in free will because current science states something preposterous: if we have free will then elementary physical particles must do too. . i can't remember the precise details but there are also some fancy versions of the delayed choice experiments which back up the 'strong free will theorem.' if you're really interested in the details pm me i can find you the references.

in addition. the fact we start implementing decisions before consciously making them kinda means we must be working with a really broad definition of free will here.....

so if we prove free will doesn't exist, will that be proof that god doesn't exist? am i going to hitchikerstyle poof into a puff of logic now because religion requires faith not proof?

If freewill didn't exist then we would essentially just go back to being chosen/unchosen I imagine. It would certainly add a +1 for how God created and controlled everything though. I already assumed there were limits to freewill anyway, because us with our set of genes are placed into exact situations and times where those genes will almost certainly express themselves in certain ways and behaviours, so it would be almost impossible to fight them. There is no way for a true psychopath to ever feel and compassion or empathy in any way, and I think they were generally born this way, so they were essentially born without the same chances as someone like Mother Therasa.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If freewill didn't exist then we would essentially just go back to being chosen/unchosen I imagine. It would certainly add a +1 for how God created and controlled everything though.

but free will not existing directly goes against the juedo-christian tradition does it not?

the divine is spoken of as being ultimately ineffable anyway, therefore making its existence impossible to prove or disprove.

yep. and pointless too i'd say.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

but free will not existing directly goes against the juedo-christian tradition does it not?



yep. and pointless too i'd say.

It would sort of make me go more towards the Calvinistic/Lutheran belief of predestination. Even though we sort of have free will any way, nobody but Jesus is capable of not sinning in one way or another, so we don't really have free will in that respect.

 

[Myshkin]

yep. and pointless too i'd say.

The same could be said of some of the more speculative branches of physics. Which, incidentally, share a lot of characteristics with certain ideas of the nature of the universe(s) expressed in esoteric Judeo-Christian doctrines. As do some of the less speculative ones as it happens.

Just think where you'd be if classical mathematicians and philosophers had deemed any such metaphysical curiosity as 'pointless' eh?

 

[monstanoodle]

Young. That's all I know.

 

[TheSpade]

Fucking cheery thread this. As everyone knows quite a few rockstars died at 27 and me being about as rock n roll as they get will surely be the same, shame because I'm 27 later this year and just not ready to die.

In slightly off topic news did anyone read the news the other day about the kid (American I think) who's now survived 2 plane crashes, the first killed his mum & sisters, the second killed his father (or vice versa) and step mum and he's now in a critical condition. That's some sort of freaky Final Destination shit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The same could be said of some of the more speculative branches of physics.

indeed. I believe I ranted about them to you, about people a) calling them physics and b) treating them remotely seriously as science... mathematical coherence and empirical verifiiability are key and they lack both, so though physically motivated, they're more an odd branch of maths. most of the people working in those fields work from maths depts anyway.

i don't think and don't mean to imply metaphysical curiosity is pointless, but thats not the same as adhering to a religion, which is what this discussion is broadly about. i'm actually very metaphysically curious myself. i've studied 'what there can be' to a high level from 3 different perspectives. i prefer to use tried, true and in some cases proven methods, it feels secure even if it doesn't get me as far. also, philosophy of physics doesn't have such good funding...

 

[Red Arrow]

around 80 i think

hopefully not for a very very long time. still so much to do.

 

[Myshkin]

I did say that some of the less speculative branches had things in common with esoteric Judeo-Christian teachings too though. Neatly glossed over. I do remember your cotempt for some of the opposite end of the spectrum though.

And it's not necessary to follow a religion in order to do some reading out of sheer curiosity if nothing else. I certainly don't follow any religion. I'm spooky as fuck though.