(Washington) Driver charged with DUI Marijuana after deadly crash in Vancouver

and do you really think that the people who smoke weed now are not getting high and driving?

I don't see the user base of MJ going up all that much higher if it were made legal. if you are inclined to smoke weed, you are going to smoke it if it is legal or not. people who didn't smoke it when it was illegal might try it but the vast majority of them will not become routine users just because it was made legal.
 
Detectives says Rowles cooperated with the investigation, but after interviewing him they determined there was enough evidence to arrest him on suspicion of driving under the influence of marijuana.
Click to expand...

How many of you read the article? (Especially you, Folley. Don't go turning this into a political dick war about legalisation) This sounds to me like he *confessed* to DUI-THC (i.e. he told the cops he smoked a joint and drove somewhere shortly after), and the cops didn't even bother testing him for THC.

Talking to the cops w/o a lawyer present is the problem here, not drug laws...
 
I've got a slightly different interpretation. The cops arrested him on suspicion of DUI so they could give him a blood test, and the news station was too lazy to follow up on the result of the test. They don't need a confession, just an observation of inebriation.

I think, because they require a blood test, a lot of Washingtonians are gonna be arrested just to go to a blood nurse.
 
sekio said:
Talking to the cops w/o a lawyer present is the problem here, not drug laws...
Click to expand...

Exactly. Even if you are like "no, I didn't smoke for a few days!" and are honest in saying that, the cops can just assume they know how marijuana works and will say "oh he was still stoned from days ago!".

There's no reason to talk to the cops, even if you have nothing to hide and are not guilty of any crimes, because cops WILL take ANY opportunity they can get to try to make you look guilty, even if and ESPECIALLY if you're not.
 
Everyone should always take the 'right to remain silent', that's like the greatest thing about the legal system.

@Logicsodeveloped: a guy (well known) where i used to live was way over the legal limit while driving and killed a 3 year old on a bicycle when he jumped out in front of the car. The guy was diabetic and his brother a popular lawyer around here. Because his tolerance was taken into account the charges were dropped and people were outraged.

Until (more) studies come out about the effect of driving while on cannabis (there are tons of studies showing it has no negative effects and may improve driving) then people should be tested with road side sobriety tests. If you are that stoned and fail one of those, it's your own fault.
 
i can cite the sources for my claim. There is an increase in 'tracking' where a cannabis user will drift more from side to side but other than that it's not an issue and this tracking thing does not cause accidents or anything.

There's a report from the canadian senate back in the 90s where they did the tests. Which have been repeated, i'll dig them up later if it will aid the discussion.
 
Tromps said:
Here's the problem with how long cannabis stays in your system. He might not of even been high at the time of the accident, there's no way to tell how it was affecting him or not. But like the above poster says, he's still responsible for his actions. If you're going to smoke drugs and also want to drive, expect the consequences if you get into an accident.
Click to expand...
correct me if im wrong but roadside testing is fairly accurate at testing only for recent intoxication
whether the intoxication is the cause of the accident is irrelevant he was still taking a gamble by driving under the influence. also with the federal government so anti pot way to fuel their campaign
 
correct me if im wrong but roadside testing is fairly accurate at testing only for recent intoxication
Click to expand...

Unless things have changed significantly very recently, they are still testing for metabolites that can stay in your blood and urine for up to a month after you have last smoked

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that only for people who are chronic daily smokers?
Click to expand...
Basically, yes, but this is not 100%. Some people metabolize things (or specific things) far, far more rapidly and others do so more slowly. But even a chronic daily smoker (lol at the pun), after taking a month off, is just as sober as anyone else, dontchya think?
 
roadside testing IS NOT ACCURATE FOR CANNABIS. Cannabis does not cause intoxication to the point where you cannot drive properly.
 
^ I can't agree with your second statement.
When I have low tolerance, and smoke 3-4 hits of high-quality weed, it is questionable whether I can drive as well as I do when sober.
If someone eats a good amount of weed, however, they can get very, very high. Completely psychedelic. I would definitely not want someone that divorced from consensus reality driving.
 
Peckerheads like you that ruin Marijuana! Pot makes you drive safer alot of the time. Since you slow down to avoid police/your stoned why would you drive fast. Sounds dumb but as a smoker It makes sense. Keep your two cents!

Tromps said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that only for people who are chronic daily smokers? In my experience, as someone who would smoke infrequently or on special occasions, I have been able to pass drug tests within 5-7 days after smoking. This makes it hard for prosecutors to determine his state of mind at the time of the crash. For all we know, he could of been blazed out of his mind when he hit this guy, how do they prove he was or wasn't ?

Still, stoners shouldn't be able to use the defense "it was a month ago since I last smoked!" and get away with it if they were truly high at the time of a crash. If you think cannabis metabolites are in your system that could be affecting your decision making or judgement, maybe you shouldn't be driving, or accept the risk. Caffeine and nicotine don't slow down your reaction time or cloud your thinking like pot does. Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
 
I found many studies saying that it is not possible to say with statistical certainty that cannabis affects driving negatively, but I couldn't find any that say it may improve driving. I also found some that say that weed negatively affects the skills used in driving - one lab study showed impairments in tracking, attention, reaction time, short-term memory, hand-eye coordination, vigilance, time and distance perception, decision making, and concentration.

The following all from a very, very biased source (but since it cites/summarizes real scientific papers, we have to give proper credit for that, though the selection of which papers to cite is where the bias may show up)

Although cannabis intoxication has been shown to mildly impair psychomotor skills, this impairment does not appear to be severe or long lasting. In driving simulator tests, this impairment is typically manifested by subjects decreasing their driving speed and requiring greater time to respond to emergency situations.

Nevertheless, this impairment does not appear to play a significant role in on-road traffic accidents. A 2002 review of seven separate studies involving 7,934 drivers reported, “Crash culpability studies have failed to demonstrate that drivers with cannabinoids in the blood are significantly more likely than drug-free drivers to be culpable in road crashes.” This result is likely because subject under the influence of marijuana are aware of their impairment and compensate for it accordingly, such as by slowing down and by focusing their attention when they know a response will be required. This reaction is just the opposite of that exhibited by drivers under the influence of alcohol, who tend to drive in a more risky manner proportional to their intoxication.

Today, a large body of research exists exploring the impact of marijuana on psychomotor skills and actual driving performance. This research consists of driving simulator studies, on-road performance studies, crash culpability studies, and summary reviews of the existing evidence. To date, the result of this research is fairly consistent: Marijuana has a measurable yet relatively mild effect on psychomotor skills, yet it does not appear to play a significant role in vehicle crashes, particularly when compared to alcohol.
Click to expand...

... The results to date of crash culpability studies have failed to demonstrate that drivers with cannabinoids in the blood are significantly more likely than drug-free drivers to be culpable in road crashes. … [In] cases in which THC was the only drug present were analyzed, the culpability ratio was found to be not significantly different from the no-drug group.”

REFERENCE: G. Chesher and M. Longo. 2002. Cannabis and alcohol in motor vehicle accidents. In: F. Grotenhermen and E. Russo (Eds.) Cannabis and Cannabinoids: Pharmacology, Toxicology, and Therapeutic Potential. New York: Haworth Press. Pp. 313-323.
Click to expand...

“Cannabis leads to a more cautious style of driving, [but] it has a negative impact on decision time and trajectory. [However,] this in itself does not mean that drivers under the influence of cannabis represent a traffic safety risk. … Cannabis alone, particularly in low doses, has little effect on the skills involved in automobile driving.”

REFERENCE: Canadian Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs. 2002. Cannabis: Summary Report: Our Position for a Canadian Public Policy. Ottawa. Chapter 8: Driving Under the Influence of Cannabis.
Click to expand...

“This report has summarized available research on cannabis and driving.

… Evidence of impairment from the consumption of cannabis has been reported by studies using laboratory tests, driving simulators and on-road observation. ... Both simulation and road trials generally find that driving behavior shortly after consumption of larger doses of cannabis results in (i) a more cautious driving style; (ii) increased variability in lane position (and headway); and (iii) longer decision times. Whereas these results indicate a 'change' from normal conditions, they do not necessarily reflect 'impairment' in terms of performance effectiveness since few studies report increased accident risk.

REFERENCE: UK Department of Environment, Transport and the Regions (Road Safety Division). 2000. Cannabis and Driving: A Review of the Literature and Commentary. Crowthorne, Berks: TRL Limited.
Click to expand...

“Overall, we conclude that the weight of the evidence indicates that:

1) There is no evidence that consumption of cannabis alone increases the risk of culpability for traffic crash fatalities or injuries for which hospitalization occurs, and may reduce those risks.
2) The evidence concerning the combined effect of cannabis and alcohol on the risk of traffic fatalities and injuries, relative to the risk of alcohol alone, is unclear.
3) It is not possible to exclude the possibility that the use of cannabis (with or without alcohol) leads to an increased risk of road traffic crashes causing less serious injuries and vehicle damage.”
REFERENCE: M. Bates and T. Blakely. 1999. “Role of cannabis in motor vehicle crashes.” Epidemiologic Reviews 21: 222-232.
Click to expand...

“In conclusion, marijuana impairs driving behavior. However, this impairment is mitigated in that subjects under marijuana treatment appear to perceive that they are indeed impaired. Where they can compensate, they do, for example by not overtaking, by slowing down and by focusing their attention when they know a response will be required. … Effects on driving behavior are present up to an hour after smoking but do not continue for extended periods.

With respect to comparisons between alcohol and marijuana effects, these substances tend to differ in their effects. In contrast to the compensatory behavior exhibited by subjects under marijuana treatment, subjects who have received alcohol tend to drive in a more risky manner. Both substances impair performance; however, the more cautious behavior of subjects who have received marijuana decreases the impact of the drug on performance, whereas the opposite holds true for alcohol.”

REFERENCE: A. Smiley. 1999. Marijuana: On-Road and Driving-Simulator Studies. In: H. Kalant et al. (Eds) The Health Effects of Cannabis. Toronto: Center for Addiction and Mental Health. Pp. 173-191.
Click to expand...

“Intoxication with cannabis leads to a slight impairment of psychomotor … function. … [However,] the impairment in driving skills does not appear to be severe, even immediately after taking cannabis, when subjects are tested in a driving simulator. This may be because people intoxicated by cannabis appear to compensate for their impairment by taking fewer risks and driving more slowly, whereas alcohol tends to encourage people to take great risks and drive more aggressively.”

REFERENCE: UK House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology. 1998. Ninth Report. London: United Kingdom. Chapter 4: Section 4.7.
Click to expand...

“The evidence suggests that marijuana presents a real, but secondary safety risk; and that alcohol is the leading drug-related accident risk factor.”

REFERENCES: D. Gieringer. 1988. Marijuana, driving, and accident safety. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 20: 93-101.
Click to expand...


“For each of 2,500 injured drivers presenting to a hospital, a blood sample was collected for later analysis.

There was a clear relationship between alcohol and culpability. … In contrast, there was no significant increase in culpability for cannabinoids alone. While a relatively large number of injured drivers tested positive for cannabinoids, culpability rates were no higher than those for the drug free group. This is consistent with other findings.”

REFERENCE: Logan, M.C., Hunter, C.E., Lokan, R.J., White, J.M., & White, M.A. (2000). The Prevalence of Alcohol, Cannabinoids, Benzodiazepines and Stimulants Amongst Injured Drivers and Their Role in Driver Culpability: Part II: The Relationship Between Drug Prevalence and Drug Concentration, and Driver Culpability. Accident Analysis and Prevention, 32, 623-32.
Click to expand...

“Blood samples from 894 patients presenting to two Emergency Departments for treatment of motor vehicle injur[ies] … were tested for alcohol and other drugs.

… Based on alcohol and drug testing of the full range of patients … alcohol is clearly the major drug associated with serious crashes and greater injury. Patients testing positive for illicit drugs (marijuana, opiates, and cocaine), in the absence of alcohol, were in crashes very similar to those of patients with neither alcohol nor drugs. When other relevant variables were considered, these drugs were not associated with more severe crashes or greater injury.”

REFERENCE: P. Waller et al. 1997. Crash characteristics and injuries of victims impaired by alcohol versus illicit drugs. Accident Analysis and Prevention 29: 817-827.
Click to expand...

“Blood specimens were collected from a sample of 1,882 drivers from 7 states, during 14 months in the years 1990 and 1991. The sample comprised operators of passenger cars, trucks, and motorcycles who died within 4 hours of their crash.

… While cannabinoids were detected in 7 percent of the drivers, the psychoactive agent THC was found in only 4 percent. … The THC-only drivers had a responsibility rate below that of the drugfree drivers. … While the difference was not statistically significant, there was no indication that cannabis by itself was a cause of fatal crashes.”

REFERENCE: K. Terhune. 1992. The incidence and role of drugs in fatally injured drivers. Washington, DC: US Department of Transportation National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Report No. DOT HS 808 065.
Click to expand...


There are more studies cited on the same webpage.

There is also this one, from a study cited on Erowid:
This program of research has shown that marijuana, when taken alone, produces a moderate degree of driving impairment which is related to the consumed THC dose. The impairment manifests itself mainly in the ability to maintain a steady lateral position on the road, but its magnitude is not exceptional in comparison with changes produced by many medicinal drugs and alcohol. Drivers under the influence of marijuana retain insight in their performance and will compensate where they can, for example, by slowing down or increasing effort. As a consequence, THC's adverse effects on driving performance appear relatively small.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
According to government surveys, some 25 million Americans have smoked marijuana in the past year, and more than 14 million do so regularly despite harsh laws against its use.
http://norml.org/marijuana
Click to expand...

if marijuana were so dangerous to be under the influence of while driving, it seems there would be many more motor vehicle accidents.

personally, with the last 2 tests i had to take to acquire my drivers license, i failed the first one, the second i passed. the first one i was sober, the second i was stoned.
 
A massive 1998 study by the University of Adelaide and Transport South Australia examined blood samples from drivers involved in 2,500 accidents. It found that drivers with only cannabis in their systems were slightly less likely to cause accidents than those without. Drivers with both marijuana and alcohol did have a high accident responsibility rate. The report concluded, "there was no indication that marijuana by itself was a cause of fatal accidents."
Click to expand...

http://www.ukcia.org/research/driving4.html

In Canada, a 1999 University of Toronto meta-analysis of studies into pot and driving showed that drivers who consumed a moderate amount of pot typically refrained from passing cars and drove at a more consistent speed. The analysis also confirmed that marijuana taken alone does not increase a driver's risk of causing an accident.
Click to expand...

http://newsandevents.utoronto.ca/bin/19990329a.asp

According to the Cannabis and Driving report, a comprehensive literature review published in 2000 by the UK Department of Transportation, "the majority of evidence suggests that cannabis use may result in a lower risk of [accident] culpability."
Click to expand...

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/dft_rdsafety_504567.hcsp


MORE STUDIES: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4131.html


The 1999 study done by U of T is what i was referring to in Cannabis making better drivers. I know this one can be disputed and i'm fine with that but this is what the study showed. Hope this info helps this discussion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top