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Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Gnostic Bishop said:
Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion. Few recognize that Jesus was asking his most trusted disciple, Judas, to turn him over to the Jews and Pilate.

Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper. Without knowing the definition and meaning of that word, it is not surprising that most think of Judas as they do. The completely wrong way.

A sop is basically a gift or conciliatory bribe, something that seals a deal. That is what Jesus gave Judas, his most trusted disciple. We know he was Jesus’ favorite because he was Jesus’ banker.

Dictionary reference for sop.
Something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc.
A conciliatory gift or bribe.

Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas.

Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing.

Judas believed that Jesus was the messiah who was to rise again to lead the Jews. This lie imposed by Yahweh.

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?

Regards
DL
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What makes you think that the god of the Old Testament is the god that sent Jesus down to kill himself? Do you reject the gnostic ideology that the god of the Old Testament is a flawed god who only values worship? I mean this is the same god who told Abraham to sacrifice his son and then told him not to at the last minute as if it was a source of entertainment for him. And he also said that the burning of animal flesh was pleasing to him. I don’t think that that is the same god that would send the Christ down to earth and override the rituals that he initiated in the first place.

That is why Judas recognized Jesus for who he truly was and that’s why Jesus rebukes Peter when he says that he is supposed to be the messiah who is supposed overthrow the Roman government. Because the apostles that are praised by the orthodox and protodox are the apostles that understood Jesus on a more physical and practical level while the apostles like Judas, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene understood him on a metaphysical level of which the orthodox apostles could not fully understand. Given that the whole account ever happened in the first place.

This gives rise to a different dimension of what could have potentially happened. On one level Judas can be seen as a traitor because that is how it really looked like to the other apostles and that can be valid but there is also another underlying perspective that is only shared between people with intrinsic tendency for self knowledge and spiritual awareness. They were able to be aware of the subconscious underworld like Jesus was. Jesus can be seen as someone who was versatile enough to relate to both parties and probably had the capacity to have compassion and understanding for multiple perspectives. Given that he wasn’t fictional or just a sky spirit that only revealed himself through revelation.
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
Jesus can be seen as someone who was versatile enough to relate to both parties and probably had the capacity to have compassion and understanding for multiple perspectives
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How could he not be more than of a one "sided" die in this world?
There doesnt seem to to be a lot that has changed really since then as far as societal and economic impact.
This is why interpreters are in such high demand: They are of more than one "world" and can make connections where there were none... easy magic. :)
Kind of a simple comparisson but not too far off base imo.
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
What makes you think that the god of the Old Testament is the god that sent Jesus down to kill himself? Do you reject the gnostic ideology that the god of the Old Testament is a flawed god who only values worship? I mean this is the same god who told Abraham to sacrifice his son and then told him not to at the last minute as if it was a source of entertainment for him. And he also said that the burning of animal flesh was pleasing to him. I don’t think that that is the same god that would send the Christ down to earth and override the rituals that he initiated in the first place.

That is why Judas recognized Jesus for who he truly was and that’s why Jesus rebukes Peter when he says that he is supposed to be the messiah who is supposed overthrow the Roman government. Because the apostles that are praised by the orthodox and protodox are the apostles that understood Jesus on a more physical and practical level while the apostles like Judas, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene understood him on a metaphysical level of which the orthodox apostles could not fully understand. Given that the whole account ever happened in the first place.

This gives rise to a different dimension of what could have potentially happened. On one level Judas can be seen as a traitor because that is how it really looked like to the other apostles and that can be valid but there is also another underlying perspective that is only shared between people with intrinsic tendency for self knowledge and spiritual awareness. They were able to be aware of the subconscious underworld like Jesus was. Jesus can be seen as someone who was versatile enough to relate to both parties and probably had the capacity to have compassion and understanding for multiple perspectives. Given that he wasn’t fictional or just a sky spirit that only revealed himself through revelation.
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You have to first recognize that Gnostic Christianity does not believe in the supernatural or a literal miracle working Jesus.

That is why we do not fear calling Yahweh a vile prick.

You are right that Jesus can be seen in many ways.

From a good compassionate God who will cure instead of kill, or the Yahweh and Trinity Jesus who kills when he could just as easily cure.

We think the orthodox sucks, given that they would rather use inquisitions and jihads instead of decent moral arguments to win people over.

Regards
DL
 
simstim said:
Did you all know that the catholic church urges people not to judge. Even judas.

I read it in a CIS publication.
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Is anyone surprised that Catholics as well as most Christian cults do not follow their own bible?

It clearly says to judge all things.

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

If Christians followed even this small bit, not to mention the Golden Rule, they would not be homophobic and misogynous a holes.

Regards
DL
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
Judas can be seen as a traitor because that is how it really looked like to the other apostles
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Really?

Where?

Not at the last supper, --- as they just sat there and did nothing but watch, --- as Judas left to do his deed for Jesus.

They knew what it was all about and that Judas was the chosen one as shown by Jesus giving him a sop and position of honor.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
You have to first recognize that Gnostic Christianity does not believe in the supernatural or a literal miracle working Jesus.

That is why we do not fear calling Yahweh a vile prick.

You are right that Jesus can be seen in many ways.

From a good compassionate God who will cure instead of kill, or the Yahweh and Trinity Jesus who kills when he could just as easily cure.

We think the orthodox sucks, given that they would rather use inquisitions and jihads instead of decent moral arguments to win people over.

Regards
DL
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If the gnostics only believe in Jesus in spirit form then why is Judas relevant? He should be subjected to the same kind of interpretation as well I would think. So if this happened literally you’re basically saying that Judas was never seen as a traitor until later tradition? Like how Mary Magdalene was conflated into a prostitute?
 
More basic, Jesus could not have completed his spiritual task without Judas.

I like this story because it shows that, in a material/egoic sense, people can be friends or enemies; but on a higher level, even the worst enemy could be a spiritual being planted there to help you fulfill your task. It's hard to know which is which when you're incarnate.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of the worldly confrontations and interpersonal challenges we have are just setups for spiritual advancement... or they are trials and expiations that we can pass/fail according to how we use our free will. But then I hear about utterly horrible things happening in the world that one might call evil and I question that.
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
If the gnostics only believe in Jesus in spirit form then why is Judas relevant? He should be subjected to the same kind of interpretation as well I would think. So if this happened literally you’re basically saying that Judas was never seen as a traitor until later tradition? Like how Mary Magdalene was conflated into a prostitute?
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No putting words in my mouth now.

I said nothing of ancient perceptions, although they would have known what the sop was and how important it was to this story, that honors Judas.

I try to judge all the biblical characters fairly and that is why I disrespect the genocidal Yahweh/Jesus.

Regards
DL
 
Foreigner said:
But then I hear about utterly horrible things happening in the world
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Check the stats and you will note how most of the markers for evil and violence are at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed.

News is good for ad hock thinking.

Thinking according to known stats is better when thinking of individual issues or policies.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Check the stats and you will note how most of the markers for evil and violence are at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed.

News is good for ad hock thinking.

Thinking according to known stats is better when thinking of individual issues or policies.

Regards
DL
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I don't watch the news. I follow government policy making and its socioeconomic effects, if anything. I would say that the biggest evils in this world right now are government, corporations and the unseen crime syndicates who control them.

Even though there may be less blatant evil, I would say most human beings are asleep at the wheel. The level of consciousness is mediocre, to the point that a lot of people are just numbed out. Apathy is worse than evil, in a way.

A really interesting person I used to know said: 5% of humanity is actively doing good and 5% is actively doing evil. The rest are being directed by those 10%. I think this is fairly accurate.

Jesus was born to wake people up and Judas was the catalyst. We're still talking about Jesus to this day so it pretty much worked, but the level of awakening has stagnated and the Bible is no longer sufficient to elevate people.
 
Foreigner said:
I don't watch the news. I follow government policy making and its socioeconomic effects, if anything. I would say that the biggest evils in this world right now are government, corporations and the unseen crime syndicates who control them.

Even though there may be less blatant evil, I would say most human beings are asleep at the wheel. The level of consciousness is mediocre, to the point that a lot of people are just numbed out. Apathy is worse than evil, in a way.

A really interesting person I used to know said: 5% of humanity is actively doing good and 5% is actively doing evil. The rest are being directed by those 10%. I think this is fairly accurate.

Jesus was born to wake people up and Judas was the catalyst. We're still talking about Jesus to this day so it pretty much worked, but the level of awakening has stagnated and the Bible is no longer sufficient to elevate people.
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I said nothing of news and I do watch it. To ignore what people use to control the masses around us would be unwise.

The stats I spoke of agree with your great views.

To your last, the Jesus you know and all the other archetypal good man.

I think we are of one mind on this and you will allow me to follow through on your thought with preaching to the quire, just in case you have not seen it.

Equality is downsizing religions, as parents refuse to downsize their love for an LGBTQ+ or female child.

Premise --- Parents want to love their LGBTQ+ kids without prejudice or negative discrimination.

I see Christianity and all religiosity shrinking. Churches closing, etc, while new Temples and Mosques of the wisdom seeking genre, --- as opposed to God seeker, --- are popping up to replace the God seeker religions.

This intelligent trend is to put humans and universality and inclusion over the Gods we have created, --- is nice to see as it returns us to a modernized version of the ancient and better days.

Demographics and stats are clear that the God religions of today will either have to adapt to a more secular view, --- and especially stop preaching --- that a parent has to downsize their love for a LGBTQ+ child.

Gnostic Christianity and Laïcité are the future, as we already disavow such vile evil.

We curse words like --- and the men are a degree above them [women] and he will rule over you [women], etc.



Regards
DL
 
Foreigner said:
Jesus was born to wake people up
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Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught. Put man above God.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explains those quotes in detail.


Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.


The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL
 
Since Jesus Himself prophesys that one of the twelve will betray Him, and Judus has fulfilled that word and thus is a traitor.
That's what the bible says.
But if anyone thinks the bible is a myth, why would you care to discuss a story from a fantasy book?
 
TUFKA-Sleepwalker said:
Since Jesus Himself prophesys that one of the twelve will betray Him, and Judus has fulfilled that word and thus is a traitor.
That's what the bible says.
But if anyone thinks the bible is a myth, why would you care to discuss a story from a fantasy book?
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There was a traitors act, sure, but given the Last Supper and how Judas is chosen by Jesus to specifically turn him in, while all the other apostles just let him, shows colusion in Jesus' suicide by cop.

Note how Satan does not enter Judas till after Jesus gives him his orders.

Regards
DL
 
Hey old ho, I mean foe! Good to see ya here! "Shenanigans" from the old Bible discussion forum here! You may not remember me I usually didnt bother you.r scary ass :)

That was a good forum with a lot of different views presented and discussed. We had our problems but it sure seemed light years ahead of other 'bible' forums I looked at.

I dont think it was saved to the wayback machine?
 
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Landrew said:
scary
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Hey to you too.

Scary???

Only to immoral people of all stripes. I have been trying to make myself more moral and all have to suffer my pain.
Landrew said:
years ahead of other 'bible' forums
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All religious forums have suffered patronage as modernization and a craving foe equality shrink the numbers of religious.

The religious have also shown how, without the power of the inquisitions and jihads, most will not swallow their superstitious B.S.

I look for decent apologists all the time, but go wanting.

Regards
DL
 
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