☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

[JackARoe]

Please, for harm reduction's sake, use stronger dissociatives.

A Bluelight classic. Should be best of BLuelight.

@Keeloverandfly I can't speak to this as I am not a user. But listen to your body. 6 times a year should be fine. But what do I know. The only issue is addiction, and actually getting bladder issues and not being able to stop. Any drug can be used safely if used correctly. We are still learning about the bladder issues and from all I read I still think it is a mix of things.

2C-B I hope comes your way too.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Indeed your response is the one I prefer to hear, in that I WANT to take drugs more frequently, but I am afraid of the physical consequences of doing so. If I could find a safe way to get high daily I probably would. I will probably end up taking my various dissociatives more like 4-6 times a year and see how my body feels. I have acquired several dissociatives that dose light in the 4-20mg range, so I’ll stick to those I guess (if I like them).

You're welcome.. but there's a context. Even though the stronger analogues are more sustainable than the parent compound, still the category itself as a whole isn't very sustainable. You might use a thousand times without significant consequence.. and the 1001st time you might not. It's the principle of the slippery slope, which is to say, it can be argued that any action that can't be repeated indefinitely isn't a moral action.. which has its practical limits, because in the end it's moderation that's key in every action whatsoever. But nevertheless there's a valid point there.

If you're drawn to dissociatives, then that's to be accepted as a premise. Some people but like these compounds, and they generally keep out of trouble. Other people end up loving these compounds. For them stands the task to find ways to cease usage. There's likely a lot of time left to figure that out. But don't be fooled, you're taxing one of your organism's two major filtration systems, and once the renal system does perish, you're gonna be worse off than dead.

So do feel free to explore this world to your heart's content for the sake of whatever benefit you can conceive. But never forget it's your main mission to find the frame of mind in which you can get rid of it.

 

[Keeloverandfly]

So do feel free to explore this world to your heart's content for the sake of whatever benefit you can conceive. But never forget it's your main mission to find the frame of mind in which you can get rid of it.

I don’t think I will end up falling in love with any of these drugs, and if I do, fear of damaging the body will mean I will use them as occasional treats. But this last phrase, interesting. I don’t think of that as a mission at all. I love every aspect of my life (except a stagnating career, but I’m not bothered), and I think of drugs as vacation or play time. I don’t see why I would need to get rid of them!

2C-B I hope comes your way too.

Did I say I was looking for 2cb in a thread somewhere? Or… Are you spying on my computer activity?!?!? Because goddammit I certainly hope some comes my way as well. I just found the stuff in the peels of the net but am too computer illiterate to understand how to order it.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Well not drugs in general, that's too heterogeneous a group. Specifically arylcyclohexylamine dissociatives. I mean, most people can go hard on DXM, an atypical dissociative, and get exhausted before damaged. Therefore it's quite safe, comparatively speaking. Though not for the faint of heart.

 

[JackARoe]

Did I say I was looking for 2cb in a thread somewhere? Or… Are you spying on my computer activity?!?!? Because goddammit I certainly hope some comes my way as well. I just found the stuff in the peels of the net but am too computer illiterate to understand how to order it.

Yes you were in the 2C-B pill thread asking questions and not sure anyone answered. Mr Chris Timothy though whew, he sees a lot farther than I but in a good way, not a spy way. The word Spy implies a lot of negative connotations. lol I hope 2C-B comes your way too and a solid 25 mgs dose.

LucidDreamer, the OP has put some good posts with a lot of info. I believe extra attention needs to be put on this class of drugs. Put it this way anyone would be wise to be aware, listen to their body and have fun in a smart way. I mean if a person notices any bladder concerns then why would they continue except in a sparing way? Me personally the issue would freak me a bit, the bladder controls a lot of a person.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Yes you were in the 2C-B pill thread asking questions and not sure anyone answered. Mr Chris Timothy though whew, he sees a lot farther than I but in a good way, not a spy way. The word Spy implies a lot of negative connotations. lol I hope 2C-B comes your way too and a solid 25 mgs dose.

LucidDreamer, the OP has put some good posts with a lot of info. I believe extra attention needs to be put on this class of drugs. Put it this way anyone would be wise to be aware, listen to their body and have fun in a smart way. I mean if a person notices any bladder concerns then why would they continue except in a sparing way? Me personally the issue would freak me a bit, the bladder controls a lot of a person.

Took a week to think about why the "spy" thing popped into your mind.. still not exactly sure.. kinda looks like one of those compliments tagged with a threat, heh.. but I have to guess. Not that I mind cryptic puzzles.

Why would one continue despite bladder issues? To answer a rhetorical question, because one can get the audacious idea that it's a viable organ to sacrifice. Even the slight incontinence is perfectly manageable. Just stuff a paper towel in your underpants, and refresh it after every leak, done!

Absolute madness of course, but far from the worse harm one can allow, alas.

 

[JackARoe]

Took a week to think about why the "spy" thing popped into your mind.. still not exactly sure..

CT it took a week to read the post before yours and mine? Not a word that popped in my head. Just humorously addressed to keep BL sort of funny. I mean the psychedelic forum is a cool place without worries. But I understand in some of the other forums people can act weird. I can be oblivious to that. I understand more than spying goes on which is odd. In the PD forum is is called being inquisitive. In the Lounge who knows. lol

Why would one continue despite bladder issues? To answer a rhetorical question, because one can get the audacious idea that it's a viable organ to sacrifice. Even the slight incontinence is perfectly manageable. Just stuff a paper towel in your underpants, and refresh it after every leak, done!

LOL, I needed a good laugh today CT. (laughing with you!) I could not have come up with a better answer. I can imagine that too. I assume we would want the extra absorbent paper towels. Not an area to cheap out on!
.
In all honestly though years ago I knew of John C Lilly and two other friends from Southern California that were big ketamine heads. There was no black market for ketamine. As far as I know you either had access to bottles of Ketaset or Ketalar or you did not. But two of the people I know were heavy users. But never heard any semblance or mutterings of any bladder issues back then. I myself had not heard of it till about 2011 here at BL. And not to open the whole discussion up again but it still makes me wonder what exactly the cause is as we know it is debated in this thread. Arylcyclihexylamines being suspect. And dosage plays a factor. But even so all of those pieces of info have flaws as some people have bladder issues with 10 uses and others never even with heavy usage. But threads like this should help rule out variables.

That said I cleared up a bladder infection once with gravel root tincture once although it could have been just my own body healing on it's own.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Oh I see. Yeah I might skip over 2C-B talk in a ketamine thread.

I'm not surprised the pioneers didn't report our chronic problems. Access is a big factor as you're hinting at.. and it's quite different using in near isolation rather than within a global network, which weaves a fabric of social acceptance around wildcard use, regardless of any intention baked into the fabric to minimize harm. Not that the alternative is better, or that Pandora's box can be closed. Rather it's an unavoidable drawback to our approach that needs to be kept in mind.

Creatine is broadly accepted as insignificant to the bladder. I've taken it a couple times, and quit because the bladder load was just unacceptable. O-PCE though could be consumed gram after gram without any such issues. So you could say the heavy dissociatives pass the creatine test. Or is it just me?

Clinicians are already enthusiastic about ketamine. I've spent a week on threshold doses of ketamine only, and remember what it did to the bladder.. imagine being tired of drinking water despite being thirsty. But also imagine what the same clinical setting, selecting against idiosyncratic immune response, could do when wrapped around methoxetamine.

 

[ecstacylover]

I beleieve the damage is proportional to a pharmacological effect the drug has (potency at some target or something else about its PK profile)...rather than simply mass of drug ingested which seems to be the lore

This is my opinion too, although, technically I think the point they would like to make is that the damage is proportional to moles of drug ingested rather than mass. But really the only way that would make sense is if any two arylcyclohexylamines were chemically/molecularly indistinguishable from each other—which obviously isn't the case.

Over the past few weeks I probably used no more than 80mg of PCE and even that was giving me issues, despite using only 10mg/day. Really it was just a very frequent urge to urinate but that's usually the first bladder symptom that pops up for me with ACHs. When I was using MXE heavily it gave me much worse symptoms, like pain in my groin and also pain after urinating.

Ketamine never gave me anymore symptoms than other ACHs, even though it required higher doses. I never used ketamine as frequently as MXE though.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

This is my opinion too, although, technically I think the point they would like to make is that the damage is proportional to moles of drug ingested rather than mass. But really the only way that would make sense is if any two arylcyclohexylamines were chemically/molecularly indistinguishable from each other—which obviously isn't the case.

Over the past few weeks I probably used no more than 80mg of PCE and even that was giving me issues, despite using only 10mg/day. Really it was just a very frequent urge to urinate but that's usually the first bladder symptom that pops up for me with ACHs. When I was using MXE heavily it gave me much worse symptoms, like pain in my groin and also pain after urinating.

Ketamine never gave me anymore symptoms than other ACHs, even though it required higher doses. I never used ketamine as frequently as MXE though.

I agree that ketamine was easiest on the bladder of them all vs designer dissos that are more potent with less mass dosed

 

[fastandbulbous]

A short stint with chronic MXE use caused me some minor problems with my bladder. I started to feel like I constantly had to go but had issue with reliving myself fully. I'd often go 6-10 times a day but only dribble out a little urine each time. I also started to experience minor leakage that I didn't have before. It was 6-8 months after I'd ran out of MXE that I felt I'd fully recovered from these problems.

You qualify as the first report of MXE causing damage throughout the urinary tract. The only research where they induced serious bladder damage in rats, involves them being fed ridiculous high doses 24 hours a day. In humans that was equivalent to doses that would cause dissociative anaesthesia 24 hours a day. Bit difficult to dose yourself if you're perm out for the count.
I'm just wondering if you had taken lots of k during time before using mxe?

 

[Chris Timothy]

With all due respect, @fastandbulbous, but that's equally absurd a statement as equating methoxetamine's damage potential with ketamine's damage potential. I had carefully kept track of the anecdotal reports generated by MXE as if my life depended on it.. because it did. And yes, there were some people who seemed to binge without constraint yet reported absolutely no adverse effects, just like there were some people who reported getting screwed over by a mere gram of MXE.

But the common story was in between. MXE could be liberally consumed if hydration was carefully tended and the more oral ROAs were avoided. But we did get bladder aches eventually. Some saw the writing on the wall and left it at that, others like myself bravely soldiered on looking for a magical compromise. Because MXE does give that mindspace in which such balance can be perceived.

I ended up being high on your product for about a year, consuming an amount of grams nearing the three digits. I didn't tolerate kidney pain, and always quit for some time when it got to that. The pain in the bladder and urinary tract however I just dealt with. At the end of the year I couldn't tell anymore when I had to take a leak.

I don't subjectively consider it damage. I took on precisely the amount of side-effects I was willing to deal with, props again to that sublime almost supernaturally lucid mindspace. As far as I'm concerned it's fixed my shy bladder, which was a far more annoying condition than a dead one. And the painful burning orgasms.. whatever, they taught me continence. But I'm not deluded that objectively/biologically/chemically speaking a process of harm has been taking place.. as, again, the majority of the online guinea pigs on various websites clearly confirmed.

@HeadphonesandLSD is far from the first person reporting urinary tract damage. And, unless that fact is acknowledged, far from the last.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Wow, I just discovered this thread. I've posted about a harm reduction question on K a few days back:

Harm Reduction - Mitigating bladder damage caused by Ketamine

I was reading about how exactly K causes bladder damage; it seems like Ketamine Bladder Syndrome (or "Ketamine Cystitis") is primarily caused due to K's metabolites damaging epithelial cells of the bladder lining, which can cause urine to pass through the pores caused due to the cell damage (and...

bluelight.org

Anyway, does any of you guys have experience with taking epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) supplements or green tea? It has been shown to reduce bladder damage caused by K in rat models and anecdotal human experiences. I'm wondering if you guys have any experience with this supplement. I'm relatively new to K and have been using it maybe 3 times a week (each time around ~60mg of two doses). I take an EGCG supplement an hour before doing K.

The protective effect of green tea catechins on ketamine-induced cystitis in a rat model

To investigate the protective effect of green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) on long-term ketamine-induced ulcerative cystitis (KIC) using a keta…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[SpiralusSancti]

This thread certainly makes me consider leaving dissos for my (really) old-self

 

[G_Chem]

Wow, I just discovered this thread. I've posted about a harm reduction question on K a few days back:

Harm Reduction - Mitigating bladder damage caused by Ketamine

I was reading about how exactly K causes bladder damage; it seems like Ketamine Bladder Syndrome (or "Ketamine Cystitis") is primarily caused due to K's metabolites damaging epithelial cells of the bladder lining, which can cause urine to pass through the pores caused due to the cell damage (and...

bluelight.org

Anyway, does any of you guys have experience with taking epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) supplements or green tea? It has been shown to reduce bladder damage caused by K in rat models and anecdotal human experiences. I'm wondering if you guys have any experience with this supplement. I'm relatively new to K and have been using it maybe 3 times a week (each time around ~60mg of two doses). I take an EGCG supplement an hour before doing K.

The protective effect of green tea catechins on ketamine-induced cystitis in a rat model

To investigate the protective effect of green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) on long-term ketamine-induced ulcerative cystitis (KIC) using a keta…

www.sciencedirect.com

I’ve tried just green tea, and honestly I didn’t feel it helped much at all compared to the honey/royal jelly I use now.

-GC

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

I’ve tried just green tea, and honestly I didn’t feel it helped much at all compared to the honey/royal jelly I use now.

-GC

I think I'm gonna let go of my ketamine use. I mainly use it recreationally. I guess I might as well switch to safer recreational drugs like mushrooms or LSD or cannabis.

Good bye K....

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

I’ve tried just green tea, and honestly I didn’t feel it helped much at all compared to the honey/royal jelly I use now.

-GC

Btw, I'm really curious how you take K sublingually (I've noticed you mention that you take K both sublingually and intranasally). Given K comes in the form of powder (like cocaine), how do you put that powder under your tongue? I mean, I find it harder for even "bulky" substances like pills to take it sublingually; oftentimes, it moves around, slips towards my teeth, and I always have trouble lining it up accurately on top of my sublingual veins for the drug to be absorbed. I can't even imagine how you can put a powder perfectly on top of your sublingual veins (unless you have a pill press in your basement lol). Mind to share the trick?

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

The only thing I can think of is using one of those micro scoops. Like, if you wanna dose 20mg, you’d take a 20mg micro scoop, take the K powder in the scoop from the baggie (without measuring it in a milligram scale), and put it directly under your tongue. Idk how else you’d do it. Regardless, if I remember correctly, the sublingual bioavailability seems like lower compared to just snorting a line anyway so not sure why you’d take it sublingual.

 

[cosmic charlie]

You deff dont wanna be taking Ketamine sublingually/orally cuz it does more damage to your internal organs. Even sniffing it causes problems if you dont spit out the drip. Using needles for injections is obviously a big step and IM/IV carries its own risks relating to infections. But as far as damage to your organs its the safest method in that regard.

 

[G_Chem]

Btw, I'm really curious how you take K sublingually (I've noticed you mention that you take K both sublingually and intranasally). Given K comes in the form of powder (like cocaine), how do you put that powder under your tongue? I mean, I find it harder for even "bulky" substances like pills to take it sublingually; oftentimes, it moves around, slips towards my teeth, and I always have trouble lining it up accurately on top of my sublingual veins for the drug to be absorbed. I can't even imagine how you can put a powder perfectly on top of your sublingual veins (unless you have a pill press in your basement lol). Mind to share the trick?

I pretty much take S-Ketamine in the form of tiny little needle like shards and dump some not crushed under my tongue. I personally haven’t found I needed to aim for those veins I just get it up as far as I can under there. The main goal I’ve found with sublingual administration is keeping the drug in place until it has properly absorbed. That’s why uncrushed as far up there as I can helps with that.

It’s tastes like hell but soon as the effects kick in it’s all good. Pills are much harder to do sublingual cuz like you said they can slip around. Soon as you dump this in it sticks to where it hits.

You deff dont wanna be taking Ketamine sublingually/orally cuz it does more damage to your internal organs. Even sniffing it causes problems if you dont spit out the drip. Using needles for injections is obviously a big step and IM/IV carries its own risks relating to infections. But as far as damage to your organs its the safest method in that regard.

This is true, and should also give you an idea how much I want to avoid intranasal. Orally and sublinngual are different enough. Oral is 20% BA, Sub 30% and Intranasal 45% if I’m remembering correctly. So Sublingual is kinda middle ground, rectal also is 30%.

I’ve majorly considered IV/IM for the reasons stated but haven’t yet. I’m finding medicinal honey to be a great bladder protector when using K.

I’ve unfortunately been using it MUCH more than normal due to my life circumstances and the honey has been saving me from what would surely be very bad symptoms by now. I can’t say enough.

I’ve been using a good Pine Honey which is a HoneyDew honey (not produced by pollen like normal honeys) and is very high in flavonoid/antioxidant content. About a 1-2tsp.

-GC