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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

@fastandbulbous your whinge is our command, dear sir
you're single-handedly responsible for the single best year of my life! yeah, I doses MXE for about a year, and got away unscathed even!
problems only occurred when I started to fill the void left by mxe with other stuff
but every actions towards that was mediated by my own fully conscious considerations.. so I wouldn't want to land that on saint f&b
I've lived the mxe life for a year straight, I will die happily cause of that
 
@fastandbulbous
Even if you yourself consider us lost, the state your child induces differs.

Every artist needs to let go of the public's feelings about their art instances.

In the same way you have caused states in people's minds any individual can't account for. But your lack of accountancy doesn't diminish your actions.

Yes, worse case, that kinda comes down to YOURAPEDMEDADDYANDILIKEDIT. But, consider, some people already came from such background, and found in MXE a state to be at least in relative control. Which is truly invaluable.
 
Pardon me, half of that is the alcohol talking, xmas and all that.

But even if you were to quote the satanic bible, quoting how you'd be bumfucking all weak sheep of humanity for monetary gain, I still wouldn't care.

Because I've seen. I've seen thanks to you. And even if you open some human trenchcoat to circularly flop around some human dickery, you're still a god to me.
 
Chris Timothy said:
Pardon me, half of that is the alcohol talking, xmas and all that.

But even if you were to quote the satanic bible, quoting how you'd be bumfucking all weak sheep of humanity for monetary gain, I still wouldn't care.

Because I've seen. I've seen thanks to you. And even if you open some human trenchcoat to circularly flop around some human dickery, you're still a god to me.
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Disappointing gods are how to lose faith in everything...
 
Because I've no problem separating the fallible human being from his rather infallible piece of work.

Why do you feel you are disappointing? Why has the vision be a downside, rather than something for us to strive for, despite?
 
MXE is deff the best dissociative ive ever had my hands on for damn sure, all the others are good fun but Methoxetamine is magic. Always have been awe about how you came up with. Really hit it out of the park. The fact that most of these other new dissos are just attempting to mimic the stuff says it all.
 
Cosmic Charlie said:
MXE is deff the best dissociative ive ever had my hands on for damn sure, all the others are good fun but Methoxetamine is magic. Always have been awe about how you came up with. Really hit it out of the park. The fact that most of these other new dissos are just attempting to mimic the stuff says it all.
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It's texts like this that make me want mxe to become the gold standard antidepressant. If that happens, I will watch the post for my honourary doctorate from Sunderland poly (sorry university!).

Hey, it's xmas and Santa occasionally brings things other than toys/games, socks or cards containing money!! 🤣
 
Of course MXE would make the perfect antidepressant. It almost was perfect even without shepherding, even without regulating meta-system.

Slap a system around it, and of course you have a perfect, reliable, even profitable, mental health agent.

I tried to take creatine trying to get into shape afterwards. I had to quit, cuz it was just too renally intense.

If creatine is within normal kidney-fuck ranges nowadays, then so should MXE be.
 
So… as someone just discovering dissos, and having done K 4-5 times over the last year or so (probably .15g max each time, nasally mainly), and having discovered and read this thread… what should I do to protect myself? I have read a lot of this thread and this is what I have gleaned:

—take only very occasionally
—preference for dissos with low weight/high effect, because you take less
—keep track of what your body is telling you, organ pain, changes in urine frequency, and stop if you notice anything
—drink lots of water during trip and in the days after
—drink green tea or a supplement with that chemical (I actually can’t drink caffeine without triggering horrendous pain so scratch that for me, at least)

Am I missing anything?

I think this thread has done a lot to turn me off of my sudden interest in dissos. I already have pretty strange urine frequency so I have no way of judging from that. Also

I have recently bought a couple grams of various dissos (my store sells sample packs) and xokorth wrote that they last forever If properly stored, so I am thinking they will be once or twice a year treats, for… the rest of my life? I am very good at not being addicted to things, especially when I know the potential harm (except for sugar), and I am not interested in going deep in these drugs, as holes scare me. So I guess I will reagent test them all now and stash em for later use. Sound reasonable? Are there reports of permanent damage from such infrequent dosing?

Also sorry I keep asking so many questions about all these drugs. I used to take whatever without asking questions, without testing anything. Now that I read bluelight I am more and more wary about what I put in my body.
 
Keeloverandfly said:
—take only very occasionally
—preference for dissos with low weight/high effect, because you take less
—keep track of what your body is telling you, organ pain, changes in urine frequency, and stop if you notice anything
—drink lots of water during trip and in the days after
—drink green tea or a supplement with that chemical (I actually can’t drink caffeine without triggering horrendous pain so scratch that for me, at least)
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Definitely a good start. And realistically there's probably nothing you have to worry about with how infrequently you're using.

With more frequent use, people might also consider acetaminophen along with both a fat- and water-soluble antioxidant. The acetaminophen will inhibit COX-2, which is an enzyme upregulated by ketamine in the bladder tissue. This enzyme produces inflammatory molecules which generate oxidative stress thereby damaging cellular components. Furthermore, these inflammatory molecules can also trigger cells to self-destruct.

The antioxidants will counter some of the oxidative stress downstream of COX-2 activation, and they will also counteract oxidative stress produced by alternative mechanisms (e.g. there is evidence that ketamine interferes with components of the electron transport chain). The NMDA receptor itself is modulated by the relative amount of oxidative stress, so antioxidant supplementation might impact the psychoactive effects of dissociatives. NAC does drastically blunt the effects of dissociatives, although I suspect this is a consequence of its increasing mGluR2 activity rather than its antioxidant activity. This wouldn't really be a concern for antioxidants with low blood-brain barrier permeability.

fastandbulbous said:
The Chinese paper was giving rats 30mg/kg per day.
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If you do the conversion it comes out to like 400mg/day for male humans, which is abuse but there's definitely people using that much K and more. At my worst I went through 10g MXE in a month, which comes out to almost that much.
 
fastandbulbous said:
The papers I've read seem to mainly lay the blame with drugs that have a keto group on the cyclohexyl ring. In the original interview with HM, I stated that I was trying for a MORE bladder friendly dissociative, for treating phantom limb pain (by the way, the reference - think it's no 5 - that states mxe was originally made as an antidepressant is so fucking incorrect, I'm amazed it became a ref. It's original raison d'etre was as a dissociative to treat phantom limb pain. That such a piece of disinformation is now accepted as a ref makes me a bit hesitant regarding other references).
The Chinese paper was giving rats 30mg/kg per day. That is, without the per kg bit, a human dose. Humans tend to be at least 50x the weight of rats, implying the equivalent human dose would be min 1500mg per day. That is a fucking huge dose. This iswhere the more bladder friendly comment becones relevant. No drug is totally safe (shit you can die from water intoxication).
As one final comment, results with one species are not a generalized response. Rats can eat MPTP until it's coming out of their ears and show no signs of Parkinson's disease: it only has that effect on primates.
In terms of goals, mxe is a lot less urotoxic than ketamine and is generally less disturbing than ket. Those were the original goals, which I feel it achieved. If I'd had a full research lab, with adequate funding, I feel results could have been much better (without it's amazing antidepressant properties being taken into account). As I've said elsewhere, if you have a narrow result you're aiming at, things can be massaged to give the results wanted. MXE causing bladder damage in previous heavy ketamine users - well it's less damaging than ket - who knows how much damage had been caused by previous ket use and the pureMXE study, in rats utilized frankly ridiculous daily doses.
MXE is far, far from perfect, but I do feel there was a concerted effort by 'research' to overly demonize MXE, for 'war on drugs' purposes. I mean, one scruffy hippie creating a drug that surpasses the usually used dissociative makes governments/big pharma appear crap, and we can't have that, can we?
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Can you post a peer reviewed studying concluding mxe is less urotoxic than ketamine?

Everyone just says we'll you take less mass of it than K so it's safer. By that logic carefentanyl is safer than fentanyl.

As i waxed ad nauseum above and provided scientific papers to back up hypothesis....I beleieve the damage is proportional to a pharmacological effect the drug has (potency at some target or something else about its PK profile)...rather than simply mass of drug ingested which seems to be the lore
 
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LucidSDreamr said:
This is completely unsubstantiated and the papers I cited above and my above post provide a different hypothesis
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Thanks for the responses. Yeah this I read both opinions in the posts, multiple times so I wasn’t sure which it was. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Keeloverandfly said:
Thanks for the responses. Yeah this I read both opinions in the posts, multiple times so I wasn’t sure which it was. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Ignore that hardhead. It's not substantiated with scientific rigor, that much is true. But if his alternative hypothesis were correct, we would have seen quite some anecdotal reports of renal damage by MXE. We simply haven't.

Also note that he compares a drug 100x stronger than its precedent with a drug a couple times stronger than its precedent. As usual, he doesn't think his statements through, and just posts whatever supports his bias. Assuming it even makes sense comparing most dissociatives to opioids.

Please, for harm reduction's sake, use stronger dissociatives. Yes, you might abuse the extra safety in the long run, ending up getting higher than you would on ket. But even then you'll be better off harm-wise, because many have gone before you and concluded that's indeed the case.. apart from one guy still going around generalizing his own experience in the face of disagreeing consensus.
 
Chris Timothy said:
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Indeed your response is the one I prefer to hear, in that I WANT to take drugs more frequently, but I am afraid of the physical consequences of doing so. If I could find a safe way to get high daily I probably would. I will probably end up taking my various dissociatives more like 4-6 times a year and see how my body feels. I have acquired several dissociatives that dose light in the 4-20mg range, so I’ll stick to those I guess (if I like them).
 
I did ketamine as well as deschloroketamine and good old methoxetamine and I think to be fairly sure that the damage to the body is directly related to the total amount of dissociatives you put into your system. Yeah, MXE showed similar bladder damage than ket in rats but they used ridiculous dosages. The only occasion where I got these infamous 'K cramps' was when I did like 20g of ket in a few days. But I also did multiple grams of the other dissos in a few days which would come to a similar dosage if potency was calculated in, and all I got was mild bladder irritation - after months and months of abuse. Maybe I am not that susceptible to the bladder damage though and this is just an anecdotal report but high doses of K felt way more dirty and toxic than of the other dissos.

@Keeloverandfly, lucky you that you still value health over drug effects. This is a good sign that you're in control of your use. During my deep dark disso addiction my only value was getting and remaining high (I guess I abused dissos for both their euphoriant and memory inhibiting effects, they can make an almost perfect escapism drug specially in combination with opioids.)
 
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