Relapse Wanting to be Sober

[Stringer_Bell]

Hello BL'ers,

Genuinely hope you are all well and huge respect to those of you living sober or trying your damnedest to do so.

I go on once month two day 'binges' of oxy and coke. So the latest binge is 0.5g of high quality coke and a fair amount of oxy (about 50mg yesterday and 50mg today). I'm not and have never been physically dependent on oxy or any opiate.

It's always the same - after one of these binges I feel very worried that I'm going to become a full blown opiate addict (physically, I know I have a psychological addiction already), feel guilty, very depressed, etc. So for the next few weeks I eat healthily, exercise every day, knuckle down at work and genuinely live a pretty wholesome life.

But then boredom sets in and I start planning the next 'relapse', looking forward to it, fantasising about it, feeling very excited about it.

And so the pattern repeats.

I guess I want to want to be sober but I can't quite do it. I try to imagine a life with no drug use at all and it seems quite monotonous. I know for sure I never want to become a daily user/physical addict. But I know of course if I carry on like this there is a good chance that might happen.

I don't even know what my specific question is, I just wanted to write this down and see if anyone has thoughts on what I've written. I like feeling virtuous and healthy but it's like after a while this pressure builds up and gets released in one of these binges. But then I feel guilty and ashamed.

Sorry guys, not really sure what I expect by posting this but any insights would be very much appreciated.

S

 

[Breathe]

Stringer.. I remember feeling exactly what you're talking about, during the process of becoming addicted to opiates.
At the time, I was not physically dependent, so I would stop partying for the week, but as soon as Friday came around,
I was doing pills, drinking, etc.. I do remember how it felt if I couldn't get any opiates.. I would get angry, sad, depressed even.
I was psychologically addicted waaay before the physical.
I know that the problem in that is the delicate issue of WANTING. How can anyone properly go about life if life and its requirements
are contradictory to the things you WANT. That, my friend, is a miserable life, no matter how you look at it.

I've spent the past couple of days finally sitting down and getting all my feelings and thoughts out. I've actually been sober for almost a year now,
but I've done this so many times and tried so many different ways of doing it, that when I got clean this time, I knew exactly what I needed to do
in order to stay sober - and believe me, I didn't "like" it. It meant that there was going to have to be a massive overhaul, throwing out certain things
and committing to others. I have a feeling that's exactly the position you're in - not wanting to let go of methods of coping and living that have been
conditioned by you. To let them go, is to let go of your life, your identity, your SELF even? Your fun, your friends, your work etc... It's hard, but can be done.
I promise.

I've been creating a guide for a few months, that details the things I've learned in the past 17 years of drug use and attempted sobriety, on how to repair
myself and feel better, sober. It took me forever to finally write this up because I was purposely off the grid for the first 8 months.
Everything in the guide can help everyone, from junkie to normie. My thing was Heroin and Meth, basically a more ridiculous version of Oxy and Coke.
So we have that in common, and as such, you would be one of the people whose needs would be met totally by the info I posted.

So please check it out, take what you like, leave the rest, let me know what you think.
http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/817897-How-To-Repair-Your-Body-Mind-Soul-A-Guide

 

[starting_over]

Hmmm you kinda sound like a past version of me... aware that you are psychologically addicted but no physical symptoms. Boredom being a big reason to indulge, excitement about the next time, the shame, etc. Maybe the only big difference is I used oxy to self medicate for my depression.

I was a once a week oxy person, hardly into coke. And then it went up to 3x / week. Stopped for over a year, and later called it quits after irritating my lungs. Now surgery has temporarily led me back to percocets after a nearly 1 year break.

I had to delete my dealers number, I have no other connects, and cold copping in my area is now likely to result in fentanyl death.

Now I have chronic back pain at a young age and it is so tempting to ask around for opiates.

This isn't even formatted in a coherent way, I'm rambling. What I'm trying to say is don't be surprised if drugs are an on again, off again sort of deal. It's hard to 100% quit everything forever.

 

[Stringer_Bell]

Stringer.. I remember feeling exactly what you're talking about, during the process of becoming addicted to opiates.
At the time, I was not physically dependent, so I would stop partying for the week, but as soon as Friday came around,
I was doing pills, drinking, etc.. I do remember how it felt if I couldn't get any opiates.. I would get angry, sad, depressed even.
I was psychologically addicted waaay before the physical.
I know that the problem in that is the delicate issue of WANTING. How can anyone properly go about life if life and its requirements
are contradictory to the things you WANT. That, my friend, is a miserable life, no matter how you look at it.

I've spent the past couple of days finally sitting down and getting all my feelings and thoughts out. I've actually been sober for almost a year now,
but I've done this so many times and tried so many different ways of doing it, that when I got clean this time, I knew exactly what I needed to do
in order to stay sober - and believe me, I didn't "like" it. It meant that there was going to have to be a massive overhaul, throwing out certain things
and committing to others. I have a feeling that's exactly the position you're in - not wanting to let go of methods of coping and living that have been
conditioned by you. To let them go, is to let go of your life, your identity, your SELF even? Your fun, your friends, your work etc... It's hard, but can be done.
I promise.

I've been creating a guide for a few months, that details the things I've learned in the past 17 years of drug use and attempted sobriety, on how to repair
myself and feel better, sober. It took me forever to finally write this up because I was purposely off the grid for the first 8 months.
Everything in the guide can help everyone, from junkie to normie. My thing was Heroin and Meth, basically a more ridiculous version of Oxy and Coke.
So we have that in common, and as such, you would be one of the people whose needs would be met totally by the info I posted.

So please check it out, take what you like, leave the rest, let me know what you think.
http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/817897-How-To-Repair-Your-Body-Mind-Soul-A-Guide

Breathe, thank you so much for this reply. I haven't read the linked guide yet but I'm going to and will get back to you with any thoughts about it but I'm sure it's going to be very good. Congratulations on being sober for a year, it's a big achievement.

Unfortunately/fortunately I do have quite a lot of insight into the fact that I'm really one step away from going full addict. Clearly I'm already psychologically addicted, there is absolutely no doubt about that. And the feelings you described having mirror mine exactly. Now my two day binge is over, today I went for a long run and am trying to shake feelings of guilt and disgust. But I know exactly what will happen, in the coming weeks the guilt and disgust will be replaced by boredom, cravings and feeling like a I 'deserve' another binge or like life isn't satisfying without drugs.

Which is why what you say about needing to completely overhaul things is true. Without that I doubt I have much chance of success. I've been carrying on like this for a couple of years, have gone to NA, done CBT even but still I keep going back. Clearly something is missing/wrong in my life. I do suffer anxiety, depression and OCD all quite severely and either running or binging are a couple of the only times when I can be completely free of the symptoms of those diseases. Of course after they come back far worse.

Starting_over, it didn't sound like rambling to me. It was very coherent. I'm really sorry to hear about your back pain. I don't even have that excuse. Although I have to say the first time I had opiates was after major abdominal surgery. I was so anti drugs at that time I told the doctors I didn't want any strong painkillers after surgery. They basically laughed at me and told me I had to have them (to be fair I did need them). If it hadn't been for that maybe I never would have sought after opiates, I don't know. I hope you're able to take the meds as prescribed and not lapse back into abuse.

 

[starting_over]

Thanks man good luck to you too

And love the username, I used to nod out while watching that show (lol)

 

[MrRoot]

In my opinion after going through a huge amount of withdrawals while suffering from a legitimate pain too I can say that physiological withdrawals are actually quite easy to handle. It is just a few days of miserable life while not being able to do nothing which may sound quite awful but what really brings the trouble is psychological part of withdrawals aka PAWS.

It is like living in a hell.

I was that badly psychologically addicted that I actually couldn't think about anything else except using drugs. Every moment was a huge burden. I remember counting minutes and if I could be five minutes free of thoughts about using it was an achievement. I couldn't sleep. Couldn't get out of bed. Couldn't function at all. Then I started having depressive thoughts along with drug cravings and while it was something else than constantly thinking about using it wasn't good at all.

Three weeks is the most I managed to stay clean after hitting the worst phase of my addiction.

Only way to cope with my life was to start ORT and I have been on Suboxone after that and haven't been using anything else than prescribed drugs and even those as prescribed.

I would like you to think about leaving the train before it hits the wall as you still can function between the doses.

 

[Jabberwocky]

This is a tall request Stringer, but I would try to get past the addict/normie dichotomy. I for one never found it helpful, reinforced unhealthy stereotypes and muddies the waters generally: https://bluelight.org/vb/threads/77...-and-sober?p=13386031&viewfull=1#post13386031

You are at the start of your "addiction" Stringer. I use those quote because at this point its totally (really you're the only one who can legitimately do this) on whether or not you identity and label your substance use as that which qualifies as an addiction (read: "substance use disorder"). Anyhoo, that said, you basically have two options at this juncture vis a vis harm substance use and substance use disorder:

• Create habits that promote your health and wellbeing, and are sustainable over the longer term, which you can rely and actually use to regulate your mood and calm yourself in times of stress when you're under great pressure; or
• Continue attempting to rely on the substances you have discovered cause you problems, as any issues you are experiencing now will only become exponentially more significant as your use progresses.

Hmmm you kinda sound like a past version of me... aware that you are psychologically addicted but no physical symptoms.

That can be said of many of us indeed!

 

[Stringer_Bell]

Many thanks for the replies.

Mr Root - Wow that is terrible. I am psychologically addicted and I find myself spending a lot of time thinking about drugs but it's more like a fantasising. It is intrusive but it's not anywhere near as bad as what you describe and there are long periods of time when I don't think about drugs and can enjoy doing other things. But what you say is very sobering (no pun) because it makes me appreciate that there is a spectrum of psychological addiction rather than it being a binary thing. I don't want to slip any further down the spectrum.

Starting_Over - Thanks man, yeah he was a great character!

Toothpastedog - Many thanks. I'm sure there are many here who would sneer at my use of the word addiction simply because it's a joke compared to what a lot of you have been through. But I want to use the word because I don't want to kid myself that I'm just having a good time. My behaviour is far too compulsive for that and I find myself thinking about and planning drug use for it to be considered recreational.

I need to create habits that promote health and wellbeing and not rely on these substances. I guess figuring that out is going to be the challenge. It's so easy at the end of one of these mini binges to swear off using again, so there's no point me doing that. The test will come when I'm recovered and feeling good again. I just don't know how to break this cycle at the moment.

 

[simco]

OP, it says a lot that you're reaching out and trying to stop *now*, as opposed to waiting for shit to go completely sideways before getting serious about quitting.

I second TPD's suggestion that the 'addict' label isn't all that helpful, especially for someone in your position. Doesn't much matter what we call it or how bad it is...if your drug use seems problematic, it's best to get it under better control soon, because it's not likely to improve on its own.

This is NOT to say that you don't have an excellent chance of getting out from under this. You do. It may/will be hard (as others have said, the psychological demands of long-term abstinence and re-building your priorities is in many ways much harder than a physical detox). But you clearly have insight, and that's a huge plus for you.

My best advice is this: bring everything you've got to this fight. A lot of us (me included) try half-measures as we start cleaning up, and the logic of that isn't hard to understand. But there's no harm in facing the issue with 100% of your skill and mental energy. If it's overkill, so be it...you'll still have a successful outcome. But if you start slowly into recovery, keeping one foot in and one foot out, it's likely that you'll endure some unpleasant cycles of relapse and re-quitting. Honestly, that's how I got really strung out...when I first started trying to quit I was 'only' psychologically addicted. I kinda fucked around from there, hoping I could will myself to quit. Then the feelings of failure and guilt over not being able to stop started to pile up. It was that guilt and disappointment (and the momentum of heroin itself) that turned things really sideways such that I spun down fast into daily, IV use. It's only several years later that I've started having some success in staying off dope.

Sorry to be so long-winded. I just really see a lot of you in me and vice versa.

If you'd like any specific advice on steps you can take to nip this in the bud, please reach out an let us know (or feel free to PM me...whichever you prefer).

Your gonna be just fine, man. It may not be easy. But you can definitely get out of this situation. Please let us know how we can help you arm yourself for the challenge.

 

[MrRoot]

I do think too that there is a huge spectrum of psychological addiction which is affected by the general quality of life and feeling of happiness/contempt to one's life as well as socioeconomic status and genetic variatibility and such as possibly underlying psychic disorders instead of just the habit of use. I also do think that this also varies along the individual when multiple type of drugs are taken in note.

There is a plenty of people who can enjoy their drug of choice or even multiple ones responsibly and by responsible I mean that it doesn't cause harm to himself or others and that they don't compulsively look forward to use. They also often associate using their drug with various other (social) functions.

I can for example use stimulants just for fun or to enhance my performance. Also I can have a drink or two without it getting out of hand. Benzos are the same as well as cannabis. I can have a multiple months pause between these type of drugs without it causing any kind of obsessive thinking but I have also decided just not to use those (except alcohol every few months) because failing a weekly drug test would cause me to have to go to get my Suboxone daily.

Also the progress to my level of psychological addiction wasn't just toggling a switch from off to on.

I could take recreational dose once in a month for a while and it then gradually progressed to once in a week and it was that way for many years until I gradually become using few times a week and then finally everyday.

I am not sure if I could have started using recreational doses less often but I am not planning to try my luck again when I finish my ORT.

tl;dr Some can use drugs responsibly but when one starts thinking compulsively about using it might be a sign to start looking for alternative ways to feeling happy and/or dealing with emotions.

 

[Stringer_Bell]

Simco and Mr Root - thank you so much for your replies.

At this point I really feel like I can't talk to anybody about this. I have come clean with my wife and parents and was totally sincere when I told them I was done. And when I went to the NA meetings or CBT. But I always relapsed. And I always felt, and truthfully still feel, that I want to be able to use drugs without getting addicted and in just enough quantities to get the pleasant effects without the horrible aftermath. Written down, I know it's ludicrous. I bought a fair few oxys and I have quite a few left. Normally at this point I would throw them away but I have done that before many times (the grand gesture of flushing hundreds of dollars of drugs away) then guess what, once I recovered I bought more. I still want to throw them away but I want to throw them away when I actively start wanting to take them again, not now when it's so easy not to take anything. I'm weird like that I guess, when I'm depressed I instinctively shy away from drugs and alcohol. I only want to take them when I'm feeling good. The exception is benzos for anxiety I suppose but I do take those to alleviate anxiety, not to get high and am careful with their usage.

Which reflects what you're saying MrRoot. I don't lie awake in a cold sweat worrying I'm going to end up addicted to alcohol or benzos (even though I use both) because they have no real pull for me. I never ever crave them. Whereas opiates and coke are a different story. So I fully agree with what you're saying.

Simco I really appreciated the tone of your message and the kindness and reassurance that came through. I'm really glad you've started to have success staying off drugs. I extend the same offer to all of you - anyone that PMs and wants to talk, I'm here. I'm not as experienced as many of you but I can be a good listener at least, I hope.

Mr Root - what you said about feeling contempt towards one's life really struck a chord with me, especially as it relates to genetic variability and psychiatric disorders. I'm lucky that socioeconomically I'm pretty comfortable. But I suffer badly from some mental illnesses that I know a lot of people do on here. It's not hard to see the link. And I also have the existential type angst which I use as a reason or excuse for drug use. Life is ultimately futile and meaningless so why not use a drug that brings a few hours total peace with the universe?

I am going to use this community if I may. I've spent too much time on Other Drugs or even The Dark Side, whereas I think this is more the place for me. And I'm extremely gratified by the intelligence and compassion I've found here, just in this one thread.

Should I throw the remaining Oxys away now? Part of me isn't doing it because I worry I'll buy more later, part of me wants to keep them so I can choose not to take them later and part of me won't get rid of them for the same reason that Gollum didn't want to let go of his precious ring. Man, that's a terrifying thought.

 

[Stringer_Bell]

I guess this is what it comes down to.

Person who has never used opiates

"I'm so bored. Life sucks and is just a daily grind. I'm fed up."

Person who has used opiates

"I'm so bored. Life sucks and is just a daily grind. I'm fed up. But hey! An oxy would make everything better."

 

[MrRoot]

I struggle plenty of times about how being sober could be enough and I am envious of those who manage to stay totally sober and say that they get more euphoria from how they live now than what they got from the drugs.

I am not even sure if that achievable and often the same people tell they have found Jesus or something else and me being an atheist it just honestly leads me to think if they have actually managed to luckily damage their brain in a way that they actually feel euphoric or they just simply lie for some reason.

Or then they just actually do get euphoria from due belief which is fine but never appeared in my life so I can't relate into that. I don't want to sound like a bad person towards those who are religious and I totally want them to have a freedom to believe how they want as I don't know if they are "right".

I don't want to lie that I miss the euphoria I got from opiates as I really do miss it often.

I just had to be realistic with what the daily high chasing was causing to me and decided that it wasn't worth it anymore.

For me being contempt to my life has become a new standard now and I have learned to appreciate what happens as it happens and just face it as it is. Or atleast am trying to and living seems easier each day as I also learn to cope with feelings I used to escape with the opiates. I haven't yet found the meaning of the life (and don't even know if I/we/anyone finds) but I am contempt enough to continue living on without the high while trying to get good feelings from interacting with others in a supportive way.

The more time it has been from a drug induced euphoria the more easily I appreciate small things that brings happiness in everyday life. It actually feels like if there is some automatic signal gain in our brains and as the euphoria from drugs become so high then it adjust in a way that the euphoria fits in to a scale and that causes the highs from an everyday life to diminish. It then takes time until it is adjusted again in way that we can again see the normal spikes of happiness behind the background noise.

I guess that has something to do with ever increasing amounts of opiate receptors appearing in our brain when drugs are induced habitually and them disappearing with the absence of exogenous opiates.

It seems to me that some people can be more easily be contempt to their life and it must be because of their genetics and environmental variables.

For some of us (or should I say for too many of us) life seems to be a struggle and we need to use substances to alter how we feel or either find something philosophical/spritual or go through some serious therapy. (Or as it seems to be for people in rehab, first use substances and then find something philosophical/spiritual or go through some serious therapy)

Also finding good stuff to fill your day with is really worth it. One size doesn't fit all so people should be open with their options what to do. Exercising in some form is good in general but that don't have to be all it is. It can be music, arts, games, volunteering, meditation or anything that takes time and feels good for you.

I for example spend time playing tabletop miniature wargames as well as building and painting the miniatures used in it which is kind of a niche hobby. I also do some electronic music and write some stuff here and there but I do it for living too (don't write professionally anything in english as it is not my native language and I pretty much suck at writing english). I am waiting for winter to be over so I can start to enjoy my car hobby fully. I try to spend some time giving back to the society which I owe much to and currently I am being part of founding national patient organization for those in ORT and sometimes spend time helping people to distribute food to those in need at local church.

And finally my daughter is the one whom I actually live for and who brings most of the happiness into my life.

tl;dr I guess once the opiates are first taken recreationally it will alter how we perceive happiness after that experience for many of us and each of us need some reason to become contempt.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Great post MR! It is really nice to have you back. I can tell you are doing well!

 

[MrRoot]

THX Mate!

I finally feel strong enough to resist temptatations which might arouse while being exposed to possibly triggering material and that also enough time has passed from my depressive episode to be able to write something else than stuff which just makes people more miserable

Although I guess I am still not considered to be one of the most cheerfull guys around here as I just tend to be quite pragmatic and skeptistic and I am sorry if I appear to be rough or rude against someone. I don't intend it and it often revolves around cultural differentualities as we tend to be quite informal and say things straight here in Finland.

It is great that we have such a diverse community here in BL and especially in Recovery Support which leaves room for everyone and allows discussion from many different perspectives as well as welcomes new and old faces.

 

[Stringer_Bell]

Yes fantastic post Mr Root. You write very well in English, if you hadn't told me it wasn't your native language I wouldn't have known.

I don't know, I can never really respect people who manage to get off drugs by joining a cult and claiming to live in a state of perpetual spiritual bliss. I feel like they are just a nanometer away from spiralling down into something awful again. You may not be constantly euphoric or have achieved nirvana but you have built your life on an understanding of reality, not some grand delusion. It's much more stable. I'm genuinely impressed by all the activities you do, incredibly commendable.

You're absolutely right about opiates distorting our perception of pleasure. The cliche that 'it's the small things that make us happy' really is true but when you're used to being blissed out on opiates, those little things become literally nothing.

I just found out I'm going to have to stay in the UK longer than I had planned (to have some medical tests) which makes it all the more difficult not to use any drugs because here I have unlimited access but in the place where I normally live I have zero access. Of course it's better to be able to not take drugs even if you're in a room filled with them but the reality is that it makes things harder. Plus I'm away from my wife and will be driven to the brink of insanity by my parents. But these are the sort of mildly annoying life circumstances that are going to come up constantly and if I can't handle this without turning to drugs then something major (serious illness, death of a loved one, job loss, etc) is going to send me spiralling into oblivion.

It really has helped me to talk to you guys. I'm going to continue to do so if that's ok. It's also salutary though because sometimes I'm arrogant enough to think that intelligence is a protective factor but then I come on here and everybody seems super smart and still ended up in deep trouble with drugs, so I guess it's not as protective as I thought. I hope that fear is.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It really has helped me to talk to you guys. I'm going to continue to do so if that's ok. It's also salutary though because sometimes I'm arrogant enough to think that intelligence is a protective factor but then I come on here and everybody seems super smart and still ended up in deep trouble with drugs, so I guess it's not as protective as I thought. I hope that fear is.

Please do continue, your participation helps others beyond just yourself (lots of people will see your thread and I have a feeling a few will be able to relate - and you know how even just feeling that little bit less alone can help sometimes).

And yeah, intelligence is definitely tricky. There is no protection against harmful substance use at the end of the day. Intelligence is a great aid in dealing with the consequences of it though! It's all in how you use it

 

[MrRoot]

Yeah the intelligence can be as easily used to conjure justifications for use and luring into a false safety of knowing what you are doing while thinking you have a mind strong enough to just jump off when things get out of hand.

Also I do believe that certain amount of intelligence is needed to start doubting about the structures of society, to wonder about about general wellbeing of humankind or denying religion one has been raised to believe into and other such things which are reasons that often leads into existential angst and sense of hopelessness into which opiates seem to be an (temporary) answer.

But luckily as TPD said intelligence is what can be the way out of the bad habits as most therapies actually require a lot of mental work to be done.

Kudos to you if you can kick your habit while staying in UK. There is so much of everything available at everywhere if one knows where to look into when compared to where I live.

As I live in the middle of Finland I feel it kind of safe in terms of availability as there is just buprenorphine or codeine easily available along with some benzos through the illegal ways although I could always terminate my ORT contract and go to privately operated health center and start getting into oxycodone again and work my way up into huge doses but I hope I don't end up doing that again.

I think it might be actually good to have something to emotionally deal with while trying to stay sober as if everything would be perfect there wouldn't be nothing to learn to cope with without resorting to drugs.

 

[Stringer_Bell]

Hi guys,

Thought I would update. Not great news unfortunately. Since that coke binge (binge meaning about 0.5g of coke over 24 hours) the depression has been severe. Since I made the first post I've used oxy a couple of times to nullify the depression. I'm leaving the country in a week for at least 6 weeks and won't be taking any oxy with me or have any access while I'm away. I think that's probably going to be the main thing that stops me from getting physically addicted to the oxy.

I've been running, doing yoga, trying to eat well, etc but the depression has been awful and the oxy is the only thing that alleviates it. I'm on antidepressants and I won't say they're not working but they don't work so well that I can abuse stimulants and not get depressed. It would be foolish to expect that. Having a bunch of pills which I know I can take and which will give guaranteed relief is just too tempting. So at this point I think I either have to throw what I have left away or just resign myself that I'm going to end up taking oxy for the next few days then stop when I leave the country.

So far I haven't used for more than 2 days in a row so am still not physically dependent but from what I've read it can take as little as a week of moderate usage for someone to get addicted for the first time. That said I was on constant Tramadol for a few weeks after major surgery (I didn't even realise it was an opiate at the time, I was so naive I thought it was just like Ibuprofen) and didn't have any withdrawals when I stopped.

I'm playing with fire I know but I'm also sick of constant, severe depression. It's been a week since the coke binge so I should be back to normal by now but I'm not.

 

[deathera34]

Hi i read your post im struggling still but honestly been sober from booze and pills and meth for 7 months. its a struggle and when you have stress it will occupy your mind a lot. The best thing to do is if its real bad is to see a therapist about it that is what im doing. also have control and keep telling yourself that you can get sober it takes time and its a working progress i relapsed twice in my life its something that will happen its when we catch ourselves going down that road again and to put a stop it to takes alot of courage and strenght to do. if it gets so bad that you are losing control a rehab facility may be your option. i hope you will do ok having faith in our God helped through it and ive been clean since. I'm on here to spread awareness on how whenyou are a chronic pain sufferer that the doctors label you as an addict and treat you like one its not right i have chronic pain and on 60mg of codeine or Tylenol 4 no side effects no withdrawl. take care of yourself.