Opioids Walking away from a mild Kratom/Tramadol Habit

[ErgicMergic]

Hello BL,

I've been using mostly Kratom (super-grade) at doses around 3.6g once a day since mid-June. Having had a physical dependency to scripted Hydrocodone (80mg/day for 4-5 months), and Nucynta (150-200mg/day for 2? months), I really didn't want to get physically dependent again. I am 21 years old, and weigh 205lb.

So, I stopped c/t from the Nucynta in late May, and the PAWS from hydro/nucynta was unbearable. I was even getting suicidal I was so depressed. So, due to pain issues, I was interested in a non-addictive alternative, one I would never get physically dependent on. I researched Kratom, read the warning stories (Xorkoth has a great addiction story on Erowid), and said, "hey, I'll just use twice a week!" Well, after the first day, I used the next day, oops! So, it became 2 days at a time, with 1 day breaks. Then, 3 days at a time, with 2 days break, then 4 days at a time with 1 day break (dammit!). I was also using scripted Tramadol at 75mg-125mg. I became physically dependent again by early July, minor RLS, flu symptoms, stomach aches, depression lethargy, etc are presented during w/d.


Now, I want to walk away with no PAWS, is this possible? I've "tapered" quickly:

8/12 - 1.5g sgb (low)
8/13 - 3.5 PI; 0.5g md (low)
8/14 - 3.65 SGB (med)
8/15 - 100mg tram 1:30pm
8/16 - --- light weightlifting
8/17 - 1.5g sgm 1:30pm (low)
8/18 - 0.85g MaengDa 4:25pm (low)
8/19 - 3.5g SGM 4:00pm (med)
8/20 - 75mg tram 2:00pm (low-med)
8/21 - --- weights/1 mile run
8/22 - 3.5g RVS 4:00pm (med)
8/23 - 1 mile run
8/24 - 3.3g SGM 1:30pm (med)
8/25 - 1 mile run, 1.5g sgb 6:00pm
8/26 - 3.0g SGM 3:00pm
8/27 - 1 mile run, 1.0g SGM 1:30pm

What lead me back to opioid was the PAWS and pain issues. So, my goal is to get off Kratom without PAWS (read: normal, opiate-naive brain), and to work out/run to lose weight/gain muscle to reduce pain (back and knee meniscus) issues.

I use cannabis multiple times daily, but would like to cut down on that, too, to non-daily use. I don't want to be using it to battle PAWS if I don't have to.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[sekio]

IMO PAWS is a 'junkie's excuse' for not wanting to get out of the comfortable depressive slump that compulsive drug users have a habit of getting into. It's no different than people who don't get very much physical or social activity feeling like shit all the time but wanting to do nothing due to lack of motivation or energy. Once they remove whatever factor is keeping them in their rut (e.g. opiates, television, WoW, alcohol) it can seem very tempting to attribute the shitty feelings once acute withdrawal has passed to some mysterious deficiency or syndrome (clinical depression, serotonin system damage, dopamine deficiency, PAWS) rather than a simple lack of natural positive reinforcers.

Get those natural endorphins going - go to the gym or go have wild sex or something. Try to concentrate on making yourself feel better by treating causes of pain rather than the pain itself - e.g. anti-inflammatories or topical corticosteroids instead of opiates. Stretching and other physiotherapy will help a load too. Positive social activity and other mentally challenging activities will also aid in recovery.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ yeah, babies who are born physically dependent and exhibit symptoms of PAWS sure must just be looking for an excuse 8)

I'm honestly a little surprised given how evidence-based your posts typically are that you have an opinion wholly contrary to what the science shows. While a major aspect of Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome IS psychological, another major component is physical and this is evinced by symptoms such as the physical coordination problems that are widely exhibited. PAWS is too well-researched and documented a phenomenon to just be a 'junkie's excuse'. There is variability in the intensity and duration of symptoms however this typically corresponds with the length and severity of the use and a general pattern of symptoms is observed in a substantial population after quitting these substances.

The same symptoms are also documented in some populations that use medications therapeutically and wouldn't come close to meeting DSM criteria for addiction (substance dependence disorder) so this phenomenon isn't even limited to "junkies". Benzodiazepines epitomize this.

OP, Here is a thread that will hopefully be somewhat helpful and if you search around, you'll certainly find more information on PAWS.

 

[ErgicMergic]

Sekio, and Cane2theLeft, thank you both for the input.

Sekio, since a year ago I had never even touched an opiate, I'm sure if I had just powered through those thoughts, I would have just made it through PAWS. I was more than three weeks "clean," and at that point it was really take it or leave it. However, at 3+ weeks is when I was finally not broke anymore, and I thought about buying some Norcos (I've never bought pills off the street), not really for the high, but for the pain relief. I got some Kratom instead. My biggest mistake was to not exercise after my hydro/Nucynta wd, and to not concentrate on a good social life. I mean, my dependence was extremely minor compared to what most people go through (large Oxy habits, Methadone, Suboxone, Dilaudid, Opana, Heroin). I think it's time to whip myself in to shape.


Cane2theLeft, I agree. PAWS is what caused me to relapse, and this is why I put this thread up: to help myself and any other people dependent on a low dose of opioids literally "walk away" from the opiates; cashing in your chips and quitting while ahead. I want to come off as easily as possible, and make as much endorphins as I can to take up the place, and spend my time with others to get my mind off of opioids. C2L, as a chronic pain patient who no longer uses opiates, and as a former Kratom user, can you be more specific, in terms of a schedule, as to how I can "taper" off of this? Should I continue using sporadically (2-3 days on, 1 day off), but lowering the dose little by little? Should I use a tiny amount every day? I updated the taper schedule, and will continue updating it. I read that whole thread you linked and it didn't really help.

Thanks guys! Any other comments will be appreciated! :D

 

[sekio]

Maybe I'd just like to believe in the Rat Park study and 'mind over matter' too much. As a non-opiate user I'd like to say that yes, long-term opiate use for physical pain control is pretty physically benign, but it's the mental dependence you need to watch out for. Then again, I'm not a medical professional, nor have I ever been addicted to opiates, nor have I done extensive reading into the topic.

The fact that PAWS is a common "effect" of long-term depressant abuse in general and not limited to opiates (I think you could classify some alcoholics, tobbacco smokers, even some stimulant abusers as having PAWS) leads me to believe it's almost entirely a psychosocial factor.

This doesn't mean I disagree with the treatment/handling of it - I just think that the root causes of PAWS are less complex than they are touted as being (similar to my opinion on HPPD).

 

[monstanoodle]

You can't really ever escape PAWS I'm afraid
If you manage to avoid any physical symptoms there will always, always be the psychological aspect there saying to you:
"You're missing something... Oi.... I'm your µ-receptor and I'm hungry from Opioids!"
I think you may experience some physical symptoms because your µ-receptors will be downregulated. But I can't be sure.

Just do your best to trigger Endorphin release in other ways like exercise, good foods and sex

 

[to each his own]

Well I'm either going to be banned for writing the longest post in Bluelight history, or make anyone who reads what I have written fall asleep, or feel my thoughts are just ongoing rambles containing random self realisations and discoveries. What I have wrote are all thoughts, opinions, and ideas I have formed through my many misfortunes with substances and all of the negative impacts that eventually will come from them. I'm sure anyone that begins to read my post won't make it through till the end, but if you can please read as much as you can I hope you will be able to find some logic and sense in it all. Ha I also apologize in advance for sentences with many commas, forgive me pleaseeeeeee moderates!! I've written this all on my phone. God I even wrote a novel as an introduction. I will stop now. Please enjoy.

Your brain has more power and potential then you might think. Never doubt the ability that you possess to overcome an addiction. Giving in or lowering your chin leads you no where but down. Just because you feel awful, horrible, in pain, cravings, whatever it might be, you have to remember the worst of it is over in a week maybe even less. Sure after a week you may think multiple times a day, maybe even hundreds of times a day how great it would be to pack up a big ole nice bowl of kratom shake, or even swallow down some tabs, or trams, I and probably more than 75% of the people on this site know how much of a bitch cravings can be. When pain is added in it can become even harder. But being honest, and the truth hurts, you have to just suck it up. Pain, depression, anxieties, andw whatever else are hard to cope with, and a lot of times can lead to a collapse back into the choices and actions you are trying so hard to escape, but you cannot let those things overtake you.

Always remember there is no easier day than today to quit. Putting it off till tomorrow, or setting a goal to wean your self off of anything, is only baby-ing (if that is even a word) a problem. Every time you give in and do whatever drug or new age herbal junk that's out there you are only piling on to an already over flowed problem. Making it physically and mentally harder for yourself to stop.

Your first step is to make a mental list of all of the things you value in YOUR life, if you are a person like myself who tries to find value and beauty in nearly everything that exists around us, you should definitely add that as a factor. It's sad to me that there are people alive and even people I know that wake up everyday and never look up at the sky, or notice the deep green trees, or feel the earth beneath their shoes, and wonder and marvel at the divine beauty that surrounds us every single day. When making your list whether you use pencil and paper or make time for yourself to be completely alone and un-bothered for a few hours, you need to focus and think deeper and more thoughtfully than you ever have before. Dig out everything that you are, that you honor, and for what you live for. Keep in mind that this is the "list," in logic, that is going to give you the hope, confidence, inspiration, willpower, determination, and strength that will help you overcome your dilemma.

Maybe this seems like a ginormous waste of time or an absolute bullshit approach to finding a life on the other side of getting fucked. But I promise if approached in all seriousness it can become a good solid foundation and support to guide your life upon. What is so terrible about addiction is that you will always be an addict. I know in 20 years from now when I'm married and have a few little shits out discovering life for themselves, that from time to time I will remember and think about how it felt to rig tina, or h into my arm, or toke bud, or god do any of the silly ass things that I've done. Sure I will still want to get fucked up. Once you have experienced the levels reached on substances it touches you in ways that could never be achieved without them. But finding the beauty in who you are as a person and what is around you everyday can bring you joys and a level of peace and comfort that is polar opposite to being fucked up. Also remember that with months and years and decades of sobriety drugs will fade into just a thought, and nothing more.

Think back to your list. All of the things you love and cherish, honor and believe in, friends, family, nature, god whatever. With everything in mind, compare it to what you are experiencing now. Can you say that with how you feel now, each day waking up worrying about finding drugs and money, or driving with friends and risking fines or jail time because some gay ass cop pulled you over, can you say that it would be a better life than without drugs? If either of those are not a problem now they will be in the future. God all of the clouded thoughts and I don't know about you but sometimes my mind feels so overwhelmed and cluttered that its miserable. All of the negative things that drugs bring, could never out weigh who you are, and everything you believe and honor.


This "list," is only an aid in helping you stay clean. Knowing what you want in life your goals your dreams your ambitions, everything that you love and live for, artistic ambitions, sports, movies, video games, whatever it might be. If you compare and contrast between a sober life with all voids and cravings filled by a sweet job that you love, tons of money to travel the world, a beautiful wife that brings you happiness everyday, (these are only ideas) compare this to what drugs will bring you. I feel that you have only scratched the surface of how shitty drugs can become, and how great that is! Quick get out now! Ha I wish I would have been able to control myself. I've dug in deep and everyday I recover a little more and more of myself. They take you in quick and sometimes you don't even realize it. So with all of this shit being said I will end my first post on bluelight

 

[Cane2theLeft]

OP - I'll try to respond as thoroughly as I'm able to your questions within the next day.

Sekio, I'd like to address your points more thoroughly when I have time as well (and hopefully be able to read that novel that follows them as well ) however in the interim I'd like to say this - my biggest qualm is that regardless of the etiology, people experience this and suffer as a result so referring to this as 'a junkie's excuse' is at best completely unhelpful but more likely very discouraging and essentially kicking someone who has been down for a long time.

I have always respected your knowledge of so many of the topics discussed here but in this thread I'm extremely disappointed at your lack of understanding of what people with addictions experience and your apparent lack of empathy for that.

On a side note, I'm a fan of the rat park studies and have extensively read both Alexander and Peele and if you are utilizing that framework of understanding for addiction, you seem to fail to recognize that people experiencing PAWS are likely still in some form of a cage. Would you refer to the rats who are suffering in those physical cages as simply experiences a 'junkie's excuse'?

 

[sekio]

It's a figure of speech more than anything, but I see your point... however most humans are not restricted to physical cages, they build cages in the mind.

The point I wanted to make was that without a desire for self-improvement through nondrug activities, "walking away" from addictions is often harder than it looks. Having a positive mind state and an active desire to get clean, coupled with a supportive comminity, is definitely the way to go, but I don't doubt there are some who view detox/tapers as simply a means of withdrawal avoidance.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ have you read the Alexander's writing on the subject? Vietnam was the cage he referenced most often as the most clear example of his Rat Park findings replicated in humans. The cage isn't required to be bars in close proximity to an organism physically entrapping it - it's anything that is holding us back from being able to fulfill our inborn drive to reach our potential and satiate our natural desires. For rats, this was privately mating, socializing, exercising, etc. while for humans this is more complex.

Sexual abuse and it's lasting impact can be a cage; being born in a dangerous area that warps your priorities can be a cage; being gay in certain areas can be a cage. Hopefully you get the picture.

 

[Z Y G G Y]

I once read a really good explanation of cravings which was the user thinking that they need the drug to be functional. I think for me the breaking point was just taking life on life's terms, as cheesy as it sounds. If feel shitty, then I feel shitty, is it PAWS, maybe, but then I realize that even thou I feel shitty my brain is at this very moment getting healthier. It's producing endorphins of its own. Laughing, spicy foods, exercise, music, even just sitting around, right now my brain is not depending on external endorphins, but creating its own, which will benefit me overall. On opiates of any kind, your brain depends on opiate endorphins and it gets lazy and stop producing them the way they should be.

That also has to do with whether you can accept yourself in a shittier state for sometime, because you won't be totally normal for sometime, depending on how your brain recovers and length of use.

Accepting that your new normal for a while might lots of shitty days or hours, helped me a lot. But at this very time your brain is recovering its own chemicals, that is so awesome, makes it ok for me to feel bad because I know that its only a minute in my overall life.

(My science is probably off a bit, with the external endorphins not making sense, when endorphins are external morphine's or something like that, its 6 am and I haven't slept yet and I would have slept like a baby on sub, oh well, I sleep one day)

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ that may be kind of a cheesy phrase but you're spot on - I've noticed a lot of addicts who have had bad experiences become so terrified of anything painful or difficult that they numb EVERYTHING negative and over time lose the ability to cope with the little things that don't even bother most people. When you change your mindset and start believing that you can (and have to) take life on life's terms, then you progress forward.