Vendors, suppliers and Bluelight

[adder]

what happened with mephedrone becoming huge and the subsequent fallout was never inevitable, the media made it happen. The ACMD pointed out the link between reporting and sharply rising demand in it's report on the cathinones.
I think the whole thing serves as a stark example of why hyperbole, baseless or misinformed speculation, factual inaccuracy, intellectual dishonesty etc. shouldn't be part of any prominent drug discussion.

I don't mind what happened with mephedrone. These days we're seeing many drugs, little studied and that's enough for mephedrone to be banned. Well, it's just methcathinone with one more methyl group, it all never suggested a healthy light stimulant or good party drug.

But what happened in my country after mephedrone ban wasn't actually mephedrone going to black market. Methamphetamine started to be available just like that <finger click>. Well, some call 4-MAX Ice but they call it both Ice and Meth so it can't be 4-MAX.

 

[fryingsquirrel]

4-mar you mean? Never heard of 4-max.

 

[adder]

Be it 4-MAR or 4-MAX, I mean 4-methylaminorex which would be anyway kind of strange to show up on black market just like that.

 

[amanitadine]

@ lineartransform - thank you kindleigh!

 

[fastandbulbous]

I dont know of a single substance that was synthed due to the fact it was discussed here. i guess its possible but do you know any?

That's why I almost stopped posting trip reports - post a report and 2 weeks later someone is offering it to the public. I have moments when I wish I'd never reported on some substances (desoxypipradrol looms large in my mind)

 

[FlippingTop]

That's why I almost stopped posting trip reports - post a report and 2 weeks later someone is offering it to the public. I have moments when I wish I'd never reported on some substances (desoxypipradrol looms large in my mind)

You probably did inadvertently get a few hundred people sectioned with that one

 

[rickolasnice]

Not being allowed to talk about novel drugs is along the same lines as wanting to keep drugs illegal.. I don't agree with either..

At the end of the day users are the ones who should get the say on what they take.. nobody forces them.

 

[pofacedhoe]

That's why I almost stopped posting trip reports - post a report and 2 weeks later someone is offering it to the public. I have moments when I wish I'd never reported on some substances (desoxypipradrol looms large in my mind)

yeah but then you have gems like methoxetamine which hasn't really caused any widespread problems and is still great in so many ways.

i hate ketamine, but love methoxetamine, and it helps to get rid of negative vibes in a big way.

beautiful

 

[vecktor]

^ from all the president's men :

Deep Throat: Follow the money.

Bob Woodward: What do you mean? Where?

Deep Throat: Oh, I can't tell you that.

Bob Woodward: But you could tell me that.

Deep Throat: No, I have to do this my way. You tell me what you know, and I'll confirm. I'll keep you in the right direction if I can, but that's all. Just... follow the money.


-think about it.

 

[vecktor]

Not being allowed to talk about novel drugs is along the same lines as wanting to keep drugs illegal.. I don't agree with either..

At the end of the day users are the ones who should get the say on what they take.. nobody forces them.

people are free to discuss whatever they like, but if they want to discuss it on ADD they have to meet a standard, this standard includes showing at least some attempt to find out for themselves before requesting spoon feeding.

thinly disguised adverts, or direct vendor discussion is not going to be allowed. see the thread on posting standards.

On the more general point, those that know their stuff also know that to post about novel substances hands those compounds over to the more irresponsible elements, and they will always fuck it up. gradually more and more of the smart people are silent in public forums like this. elitist? perhaps, sad? certainly.

Once the substances are banned they are gone forever, methylone for example was around for 10 years before the muppets caused it to be banned.

 

[Roger&Me]

That's why I almost stopped posting trip reports - post a report and 2 weeks later someone is offering it to the public. I have moments when I wish I'd never reported on some substances (desoxypipradrol looms large in my mind)

Meh, I think reporting on substances is always the right thing to do despite any negative consequences that may result. Its best to have the information out there and available, even if a minority of idiots will inevitably use it destructively. A world where information is hoarded is no kind of decent world at all... so, much love sent your way FandB!

 

[vecktor]

Meh, I think reporting on substances is always the right thing to do despite any negative consequences that may result. Its best to have the information out there and available, even if a minority of idiots will inevitably use it destructively. A world where information is hoarded is no kind of decent world at all... so, much love sent your way FandB!

this is naive to say the least, maybe you should ask yourself when someone posts a trip report what is the motivation, cui bono?
A world where access to information and knowledge is earned and that knowledge is protected and used wisely is far better than the lowest common denominator we see on here. it is not a minority that abuse the information that is provided it is the majority, sadly. I can count most of the responsible users on this forum without having to take my shoes off.

 

[pofacedhoe]

I can count most of the responsible users on this forum without having to take my shoes off.

over my time on bluelight my drug use has gone from out of control and compulsive to restrained and thought out. there are responsible users, but i feel that nearly all the problem drugs that began by being mentioned in ADD and then got out of control and heavily abused were stimulants (cannabinoids included here, as they are stimulating in a halucinogenic way). they were the ones that hit the papers and caused moral panics and blanket bannings. mdpv/mephedrone/methylone/deoxypiradol/jwh-xxx/mdppp/etc.

the reality is life is never going to be perfect but ADD does have useful information from posters with articles which i like to learn from having not had the luck of studying chemistry as a degree.

 

[Transcendence]

A world where access to information and knowledge is earned and that knowledge is protected and used wisely is far better than the lowest common denominator we see on here.

I couldn't disagree more with this; this was the Catholic Church's position when the printing press was invented. Who becomes the arbiter of this information? How does someone earn the right to it? How does someone educate themselves in the first place when information is protected "for their own good"?

 

[giantsquid]

Ah yeah...

And WTF?!

That's such a gross nonsense! 'People' behave irresponsible, overdose, wake up in ER rooms (if they wake up at all) and by this selfish behaviour they spoil the hard work of the few persons, who made up their mind about it. Whoever these 'people' may be, they deserve a fuck! Not a single one of them lifted a finger to make one of these compounds possible, but there are myriads of them who just act like retards and facilitate prohibition of said compounds.

I'm a member here for not such a long time, but simple observation showed me within few months that this forum - like many others, too - is only the playground for RC-drug dealers.


- Murphy

Not everyone is an expert chemist. I have personally tried chemicals now that I would have only ever dreamed of trying if vendors had not sold them. It is elitist to think that people should not have access to new drugs.

 

[specialspack]

I couldn't disagree more with this; this was the Catholic Church's position when the printing press was invented. Who becomes the arbiter of this information? How does someone earn the right to it? How does someone educate themselves in the first place when information is protected "for their own good"?

I'm pretty sure vektor isn't setting himself or anyone else up as the arbiter of this information. It's freely available to all anyway - all you have to do is study.

What we're talking about is context-free spoonfeeding of potential substances to highly unscrupulous vendors, with some quite possibly alarming abuse / toxicity risks - e.g. MDPV & mephedrone. If those with expert knowledge don't want to share that knowledge online for fear of it's misuse, that's entirely up to them.

 

[Transcendence]

But conversely if one does choose to share, I don't think they should feel responsible if some knucklehead hurts himself railing a fat line of something he never bothered to google. Of course, if you have any sort of conscience you'll tend to feel guilty anyway, but that doesn't mean it's rational.

unscrupulous vendors are unscrupulous. They're going to find some shit to peddle one way or another.

 

[B9]

Does anyone think that Shulgin ought to be censured for Tikhal/Pikhal ?
Judging from the comments from some people I'd expect that they would now consider publishing those books irresponsible - or are psychedelics a special case ?

I think it's down to ones sense of personal responsibility, if you inadvertently burned someone you'd likely take the view that you'd be more careful with fire in the future. I wonder how many of the people who have the "elitist" viewpoint came to feel that way because of misfortunes that had befallen others or themselves ?

The argument isn't really just restricted to chemists & pharmacologists, the entire recreational drugs industry, legal & illegal is affected by this question, whether you're a chem synth hobbyist a professional clandestine chemist or a misguided psychedelic zealot or part of the money making distribution network when the shit hits the fan due to acts recklessness by other people in which you may have played an inadvertent part it's human nature to feel a sense of responsibility even if you know you acted in good faith, in my opinion anyway.
There are people who seem not to give a fuck as well tho.

I am no chemist so maybe that disqualifies my opinion in some quarters, but I believe that there is censorship in ADD self censorship & also moderator censorship. This is usually when projected substances are proposed that are structurally similar to ones that have caused disasters in the past - MPTP was cited as reason for halting discussion on one chemical, whether that poster was simply being provocative by posting it is an unknown but it proves the point that not everything goes in ADD. Striking a balance is about continual reassessment as knowledge increases. The internet brings more challenges all the time.

I think overall a good job is done in ADD, I may not choose to understand the in depth chem talk but I can discern where lines are being drawn and pretty much trust that those who do so do so with integrity.

 

[IamMe90]

this is naive to say the least, maybe you should ask yourself when someone posts a trip report what is the motivation, cui bono?
A world where access to information and knowledge is earned and that knowledge is protected and used wisely is far better than the lowest common denominator we see on here. it is not a minority that abuse the information that is provided it is the majority, sadly. I can count most of the responsible users on this forum without having to take my shoes off.

This is naive, to say the least. You might be a wiz at chemistry but have you ever bothered to take a cursory retroanalysis of history? Pretty much every civilization says that is exactly not the thing to do. I can't even believe a moderator would suggest such an outrageous, unsupported fascist way of governing this board. Not even as a specific model for governing bluelight, but as a the best model for a "world" in general?

How exactly are you going to qualify what makes someone appropriate to post in ADD, who is in a position of authority to determine who meets these qualifications, and how are you going to possibly guarantee that this arbiter remain precise and fair in his decisions?

For example, if just one vendor manages to work his way into this "elite few" that somehow decide who meet proper qualifications to post in ADD, then the purpose of the entire elite is compromised anyway. A small elite is historically more prone to corruption and error.

Anyway, here's how I see it:

1. It is hubris to assume that bluelight is affecting the absolutely enormous expanding bubble that is the RC scene anymore at this point. These speculative enforcements may have had some preventative efficacy had they been implemented before the RC scene could be allowed to explode at its current rate, but the fact is that the RC bubble is already expanding and it will not stop until it pops, bluelight or not.
- Instead of viewing bluelights supposed "contribution" to the RC scene through a vacuum, actually consider the alternative... if ADD is not here to produce accurate information on new chemicals, do you think that the vendors are just going to sit on their asses and let the RC scene die? Are you naive to the point of myopia? What will happen is that in the absence of information being fueled by ADD, vendors will push something else - anything else - to continue the profits. The result is that these chemicals will probably be less researched, less understood, and very probably more misrepresented (because at this point they don't even have a base of information from which to push product - they're just going to pick a name and push out whatever the fuck they can get away with). You have two options, which is to have ADD public and allow the products that will inevitably continued to be pushed by the vending community to have even a semblance, some sort of bedrock of information to support them - while simultaneously allowing potential (not only potential, but inevitable users of these chemicals access to relevant HR information concerning these drugs, such as toxicity levels, long term affects, etc. Or, you can take the alternative already outlined. Take your pick.

So yeah, in your highly distorted perspective of the RC scene, chemicals will not be vended if we limit ADD - but what you fail to realize is that it is not that "chemicals will not be vended," but rather that "these chemicals will not be vended." In favor of: what, exactly? Lesser known, probably misrepresented chemicals that will inevitably produce the exact same effect on the status quo concerning these chemicals in the first place? Get your heads out of your asses, and view things realistically. This is basic economics guys, a giant expanding bubble has already been set up and there is really no way to limit it unless you made some enormous systemic regulations - oh wait, that's called drug scheduling. I highly doubt, no, in fact, I am 100% sure that limiting ADD will not prevent the chaotic outward expansion of the RC scene at all. The most we can do is damage control. You are going against the entire fibre of bluelight by suggesting such ludicrous ideas.

 

[vecktor]

This is naive, to say the least. You might be a wiz at chemistry but have you ever bothered to take a cursory retroanalysis of history? Pretty much every civilization says that is exactly not the thing to do. I can't even believe a moderator would suggest such an outrageous, unsupported fascist way of governing this board. Not even as a specific model for governing bluelight, but as a the best model for a "world" in general?

will you get down off your high horse and actually read what I am saying rather than cherry picking and adding your own opinionated diatribe?

I have not suggested anywhere that I will edit what people write, instead I have been saying for a while that people should stop and consider sometimes what they post publicly, whether there is more potential for harm than good from some information being out there. In this specific case information actually is also about access to the drug, because some contract mfr will make it. some vendor will sell it and somebody will consume it, somebody will get hurt, some legislator will then ban it.

As for you idea of an elite few selecting their members-there is no such thing, There are just the people who bother to spend the time and effort studying the field, as has been pointed out the information is out there, but you have to spend some effort and actually use your brain and work it out. Having spent the effort then there is an incentive to protect and preserve the compounds. To an extent this might mean not discussing them in public forums like this, because mere discussion of substances in forums has been used as reasons to ban them. (tracts from bluelight are to be found in LE intelligence and the EU funded psychonaut projects' sole purpose was gathering this information).

On a more fundamental level predigesting stuff for idiots to use/misuse or whatever is just not helpful, If someone spends the time to research and learn the field they have a far better understanding of the positives and negatives and also to respect and appreciate the worthwhile substances, keep them out of the spotlight, out of the hands of the idiots and perhaps prevent them from being banned. People don't value things they have got for nothing, that is human nature. The prevailing instant gratification culture combined with lack of respect and responsibility is part of the reason why there is such a fucking disaster occurring in so many aspects of western life.

Exactly how did BL serve a harm reduction purpose in the case of mephedrone and the other cathinones? the original posts were almost entirely by vendors whose intent was publicising the drug, there was discussion here, some of the downsides were highlighted and warnings given which were completely ignored by users who just read the positives, who then damaged themselves and now bleat here. Stunning.
the same pattern can be seen with 6-APB and with methoxetamine, as well as the JWH compounds. until people realise these substances are not toys, and you don't have an automatic right to them if you don't respect them we will continually go through this cycle.

Irrespective of whether it meets your utopian view of the way the world should be, the reality is that many people now stop and consider the consequences of what they say publicly, and perhaps choose to self censor.

finally I watched the exact same series of events unfold prior to webtryp, I guess you were not even out of primary school then, there is something amazing about the self assured arrogance of youth. I know how this ends.

I am not going to debate any further, I have stated my position, hopefully clearly enough for you to grasp. I don't seek to convince you, and you sure as hell aren't going to convince me that the alternative of facilitating the vendors is a better approach.