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  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Vendors, suppliers and Bluelight

vecktor said:
will you get down off your high horse and actually read what I am saying rather than cherry picking and adding your own opinionated diatribe?

I have not suggested anywhere that I will edit what people write, instead I have been saying for a while that people should stop and consider sometimes what they post publicly, whether there is more potential for harm than good from some information being out there. In this specific case information actually is also about access to the drug, because some contract mfr will make it. some vendor will sell it and somebody will consume it, somebody will get hurt, some legislator will then ban it.
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You should stop dressing your post with useless rhetoric such as "the world with limited knowledge is the better one," then, if your goal isn't to obfuscate your intentions.

As for you idea of an elite few selecting their members-there is no such thing, There are just the people who bother to spend the time and effort studying the field, as has been pointed out the information is out there, but you have to spend some effort and actually use your brain and work it out. Having spent the effort then there is an incentive to protect and preserve the compounds.
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What's ironic is that the scenario I proposed above about the elite becoming infected by the presence of a vendor has essentially already happened in BL history. I will not say anything more about this, but I think that speaks clear enough for itself...

To an extent this might mean not discussing them in public forums like this, because mere discussion of substances in forums has been used as reasons to ban them. (tracts from bluelight are to be found in LE intelligence and the EU funded psychonaut projects' sole purpose was gathering this information).
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Cite your evidence? The state position I have heard from most people here, including moderators themselves is that bluelight is not a significant LE source. It seems naive to me to assume that LE wouldn't find out about these substances should their use explode, anyway. And use in new chemicals will explode, the most you can do is to handpick which chemicals do, assuming you even do play a part in this "chemical selection," of sorts, which is arguable.

On a more fundamental level predigesting stuff for idiots to use/misuse or whatever is just not helpful, If someone spends the time to research and learn the field they have a far better understanding of the positives and negatives and also to respect and appreciate the worthwhile substances, keep them out of the spotlight, out of the hands of the idiots and perhaps prevent them from being banned. People don't value things they have got for nothing, that is human nature. The prevailing instant gratification culture combined with lack of respect and responsibility is part of the reason why there is such a fucking disaster occurring in so many aspects of western life.
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Of course this is true on a fundamental level, but my God one of the bedrocks of BL has been that people will do whatever retarded shit they can to get high. People want to get high and are irresponsible fucks; you think that fundamental fact of humanity is going to change anytime soon? Of course massive educational reforms are needed to combat this "responsibility reversal" as you mention, but I am certain that such reform will not come in the form of BL. Once again, you seem to overestimate BL's relevance in the overall scheme of the drug scene. It will not prevent people, from a holistic perspective, from trying new drugs; that is, should you choose to get rid of this access of harm reduction of BL, less people will be "prevented" from trying new drugs than the amount of people who will just try stupider drugs with no info without taking even the most basic of precautions.

the same pattern can be seen with 6-APB and with methoxetamine, as well as the JWH compounds. until people realise these substances are not toys, and you don't have an automatic right to them if you don't respect them we will continually go through this cycle.
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No, people do not have a basic right to any frivolous external substance, but that does not mean that they will not find substances to gorge themselves upon. You are, once again, letting your own self-contained, insular academic view point clouding the reality of the situation. Which is interesting, because,

Irrespective of whether it meets your utopian view of the way the world should be, the reality is that many people now stop and consider the consequences of what they say publicly, and perhaps choose to self censor.
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You're the only one who is refusing to view the situation out of a vacuum, as I have pointed out, which you have completely ignored because you took it upon yourself to center on my attack on your questionable ethics, rather than address any real argumentative content of the post regarding the decision whether or not to limit ADD.

finally I watched the exact same series of events unfold prior to webtryp, I guess you were not even out of primary school then, there is something amazing about the self assured arrogance of youth. I know how this ends.
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Ah, an implied ad hominem concerning my age, displaying the wisdom and humility of those senior to us. It is laughable to me that you, resorting to petty personal jabs, even at the blue light crew at one post in this thread, while picking over the argumentative meat here is accusing anyone of being "youthfully arrogant." Perhaps you are just arrogant and senile? I dunno, but while we're throwing these irrelevant accusations around, there's mine. At the very least, you are certainly woefully arrogant.

I am not going to debate any further, I have stated my position, hopefully clearly enough for you to grasp. I don't seek to convince you, and you sure as hell aren't going to convince me that the alternative of facilitating the vendors is a better approach.
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Well, thank you for your stated open-mindedness, I'm glad to know our "elders" are so resiliently set in their ways. 8) Jesus Christ.
 
IamMe90 said:
What's ironic is that the scenario I proposed above about the elite becoming infected by the presence of a vendor has essentially already happened in BL history. I will not say anything more about this, but I think that speaks clear enough for itself...
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there is no elite in BL certainly not in ADD. do you think there is some sort of illuminati who are implicitly trusted? there is not. Your concept of some secretive elite verge on paranoid ideation. If there is an inner circle I, sure as hell, am not part of it.

Cite your evidence? The state position I have heard from most people here, including moderators themselves is that bluelight is not a significant LE source. It seems naive to me to assume that LE wouldn't find out about these substances should their use explode, anyway.
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cmon, that is just plain lazy, do a fucking google search with the key words "bluelight.ru" and "new drugs intelligence"
from this open source you can then see more than enough evidence that LE worldwide are using posts on BL to generate the intelligence they use in banning stuff. the closed data is even more revealing. The DEA do it in the US and the ACMD do it in the UK. As for the stated position you claim, that BL is not a significant LE information source when it is the first hit on any google search for virtually any novel chemical, that really is naive.

[23]http://www.bluelight.ru (Accessed October 2, 2009) ...
www.psychonautproject.eu/documents/reports/Spice.pdf

look at the links between Psychonaut and LE, also look at the story of Neodoves for a good example then tell me that BL is not being used as a source of intelligence, even to the extent that some information that was innocently posted here was used as the basis of a prosecution in Australia. That is the consequence of unguarded release of information, other people will use it to serve their purposes whatever they may be, and posters need to be aware of this.

Please stop posturing and preening like some online peacock (yes your tail looks so bright and shiny), do some basic research and look at the bigger picture. This final point ties in neatly with other running theme on the future of ADD. that people should do their fucking homework and engage their brain before posting.
 
vecktor said:
there is no elite in BL certainly not in ADD. do you think there is some sort of illuminati who are implicitly trusted? there is not. Your concept of some secretive elite verge on paranoid ideation. If there is an inner circle I, sure as hell, am not part of it.
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The point is that allegedly [/COLOR ] a former moderator of ADD has been paid to consult by a vendor. If ADD was to be limited, the danger of this occurring is already very real, because some of the staff has shown itself entirely hypocritical and untrustworthy.
red words added


cmon, that is just plain lazy, do a fucking google search with the key words "bluelight.ru" and "new drugs intelligence"
from this open source you can then see more than enough evidence that LE worldwide are using posts on BL to generate the intelligence they use in banning stuff. the closed data is even more revealing. The DEA do it in the US and the ACMD do it in the UK. As for the stated position you claim, that BL is not a significant LE information source when it is the first hit on any google search for virtually any novel chemical, that really is naive.

[23]http://www.bluelight.ru (Accessed October 2, 2009) ...
www.psychonautproject.eu/documents/reports/Spice.pdf

look at the links between Psychonaut and LE, also look at the story of Neodoves for a good example then tell me that BL is not being used as a source of intelligence, even to the extent that some information that was innocently posted here was used as the basis of a prosecution in Australia. That is the consequence of unguarded release of information, other people will use it to serve their purposes whatever they may be, and posters need to be aware of this.

Please stop posturing and preening like some online peacock (yes your tail looks so bright and shiny), do some basic research and look at the bigger picture. This final point ties in neatly with other running theme on the future of ADD. that people should do their fucking homework and engage their brain before posting.
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I'll concede that bluelight is a significant source of LE information then, fine, that's pretty much besides the point though because this shit is all over the internet now anyway and you can't do anything about it. You can't stop new sites from popping up, new chemicals from appearing, and new information about them from appearing - although you can stop the information from being accurate.

I'm not posturing, I'll admit that I was lazy in researching one area of my post that was peripheral to the main point of it. But, I find it amusing that I am being convinced of preening from someone who has to resort to insulting his own forum's crew and insulting the Yung'ns for being so young. I also find it amusing that I am convinced of cherry picking when I've quoted the entirety of your posts and you have only, aha, cherry picked 4 tiny snippets that were, again, totally peripheral to the main point of my post, which you've complete ignored. Congrats, to anyone here who is reading closely, your inability to stop resorting to various ad hominems (posturing, peacocks, primary school) while not attacking any relevant arguments made is displaying quite clearly that you don't give a shit about this. So, I would take your own advice and stop posting here anymore, if all you're going to do is attack irrelevant sections of my arguments and refer to my age.
 
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former moderator - and it is not "consult a vendor" it is "consult by a vendor",

I don't really care what goes on in the rest of the interweb, the discussion is whether we allow vendor abuse of BL as a promotional tool and more importantly whether it is wise for knowledgeable posters to openly discuss novel compounds on this forum.

if you don't like this discussion because it offends some sensibility of yours then that is just fine by me, you have made no convincing case nor have you given me any reason to think you know what the hell you are talking about.

besides it is not up to me nor is it up to you, it is up to knowledgeable posters to decide for themselves what they post.
 
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all information would be freely available to everyone in a utopia, sure.

this isn't a utopia, and not everyone is willing to go through the motions in hopes that the utopia will arrive.

i don't blame anyone that keeps quiet about novel drugs.
 
vecktor said:
former moderator - and it is not "consult a vendor" it is "consult by a vendor",

, the discussion is whether we allow vendor abuse of BL as a promotional tool and more importantly whether it is wise for knowledgeable posters to openly discuss novel compounds on this forum.
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Where would you draw the line vecktor ?
Would you discriminate between new chemicals which don't fall under MoDA & those that do?
It seems to me that the problem mainly lies with the promotion of legal drugs rather than illegal ones.
Are you of that opinion ?
 
When you put it that way who am I to argue.
Personally I thought the hyping of "legal highs" was more dangerous than the continued evolution/improvement of the already classified drugs such as substituted tryptamines & phenethylamine analogues.

However I suppose that some people will always try to circumvent the law in pursuit of "legitimate profit".

That being the case if & when a new product is suggested will the lack of information & the unwillingness for it to be discussed by people, who we would hope to be objective, potentially allow something dangerous to take off and no red flags would be raised ?

I would be pissed off if someone developed & marketed a drug I felt was dangerous but had openly discussed & thought the seed of their plan had been the discussion I'd started. But if a drug starts to look as if it is getting internet attention & could potentially be vended ought it not then be discussed on its merits or lack of them?

Mephedrone a big player and one much loved & hated, I read what people wrote I was somewhat interested in sampling it - I read ADD for more info and I have never ever sampled it nor plan to due to that information.
I can understand and agree with the decision of an individual to refuse to discuss certain matters but if & when they leak out then remaining silent doesn't help anyone and in fact may harm.

At the end of the day what goes & stays in ADD is up those trusted to moderate it.

So for my money by all means keep your mouths shut, your opinions in private but if you see something turn up that could cause harm then speak up please.

Your link made for interesting reading specialspack, if only from an ironic viewpoint.

Do the full on black marketeers want the legal highs guys" to grab a market share ? Nope.
The beauty of illegal highs - if well made and truthfully represented - is that most people are going to be aware they're playing with something potentially dangerous, whereas your enterprising teenager who sells some legit drug to his pals to make a few quid may not quite understand.
I think I agree with the elitists mostly
 
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B9 said:
That being the case if & when a new product is suggested will the lack of information & the unwillingness for it to be discussed by people, who we would hope to be objective, potentially allow something dangerous to take off and no red flags would be raised ?

But if a drug starts to look as if it is getting internet attention & could potentially be vended ought it not then be discussed on its merits or lack of them?
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good points, i do believe that this is where the line is -- if the shit IS being sold through RC vendors, then it NEEDS to be discussed in a place like this...
 
B9 said:
When you put it that way who am I to argue.
Personally I thought the hyping of "legal highs" was more dangerous than the continued evolution/improvement of the already classified drugs such as substituted tryptamines & phenethylamine analogues.
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The crux of this, as you mentioned upthread, is that the phenethylamine and tryptamine psychedelics do not lend themselves to dangerous dosing habits (mostly, one could say MDMA can lead to that in certain cases). And they were initially looked at in a relatively controlled way, so the mainly safer ones tended to proliferate. Of course there were a few issues, eg the 2C-T-7 deaths.

PS no irony intended with the link - I merely wanted to point out the historical background in this forums development.
 
I must say that I'v been following ADD for sometime now. I think the Mods. do a good job. for the most part. There are members whom you tend to respect for there knowledge and high regard for human safety. I follow the opinions of only a few in ADD when it comes to new RC's that can hit the scene. I personally think ADD is a great source of information, although i'm not a chemist (or even close to one) It's very interesting to hear people's views on the up and coming RC scene.
Remember, everybody has a choice in life, ADD gives you insight and knowledge from experienced members, what YOU do with that info. is up to you.
 
there is no elite in BL certainly not in ADD. do you think there is some sort of illuminati who are implicitly trusted? there is not. Your concept of some secretive elite verge on paranoid ideation. If there is an inner circle I, sure as hell, am not part of it.
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That's because you didn't pay your membership fee since 2009. We let you slide for a year, but two? No way!


Whatever elite circle exists is amorphous and dynamic. Those who become intelligent and really interested in this stuff learn about it from contacts they make as a result. No one is charging admission or administering tests, making anyone memorize secret handshakes.
 
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