Vegetarianism vs meat eating

[skywise]

The human body was never meant to live exclusively on vegetables.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me.

If you mean, "The human body cannot live healthily on a diet made up exclusively of vegetables" you are quite simply factually incorrect.

As far as what you actually said, your claim is so strong that it has to be impossible to back up given current knowledge limitations. What sort of evidence do you have regarding your choice of the word "never."? Surely you don't have any data at your disposal regarding human nutrition from the very advent of mankind.

More strange is your use of the phrase "meant to." How can a human body mean to do anything? Are you suggesting that it has some ability of intention? Or maybe you mean that someone or somethng (God? Aliens?) created human bodies intending (meant for) a certain diet? Surely no respectable theory of evolution includes an ability for random causes and effects to intend or mean anything.

What you're saying just seems like innacurate craziness to me.

 

[skywise]

Man has been eating animals since the dawn of time.

Seriously, where do you come up with such lofty "facts"? Was there a time machine invented that I just haven't heard about?

 

[Pegasus]

^You don't need a time machine to know that people ate animals long ago...

Are you denying that humans ate animals?

 

[skywise]

^^^One thing I have observed tho is that people are always wanting to go all out, its either all or nothing (either you be a true vegan and be truly healthy OR just be a steak & potato loving fattie 8( and be super unhealthy)......how many people here are like myself who agree that there is also a middle ground where we can enjoy both and be healthy as well?

The problem with the whole health is in the "middle ground" idea is that you run into the quesiton of "the middle between what?" It seems like you're making your middle between two types of people (vegans & steak fatties). But why would the middle of these two diets, which are just two diets that happen to be well known to you, be healthy for the human body? It seems like you're taking two seemingly opposed sociological phenomenon, finding the middle and calling it healthy. Seems like a pretty slipshod way to judge nutrition. I mean, what if diets were divided into two popular camps: Thos that ate only glass and those that ate only plastic. Saying, "Oh, I'm going to pick the middle road and eat some glass and some platic, therefore I'm eating a balanced, healthy diet" would be totally wrong.

I think a better way to find out what is healthy is to actually study the effects of food on the human body. The way I see it is this: The more studies that are done on vegetarianism & veganism the more health benefits are found. The more studies that are done on meat the more health hazards are found and the more the alleged "benefits" turn out to be nothing but old wives tales and industry propaganda. Using this knowledge it only makes sense (speaking strictly in terms of health) to move towards veganism.

 

[skywise]

^You don't need a time machine to know that people ate animals long ago...

Are you denying that humans ate animals?

No, read my post again. Using anthropological evidence (i.e. finding hunting weapons or stories/pictures about hunting) we can say pretty confidantly that people ate animals. I am denying that anyone at all (let alone on BL) knows what people have eaten since "the dawn of time."

If you are familiar with scholarly research on the subject you will know that its an area of debate and no firm conclusions whether humans started out as hunters or as plant gatherers. If you think about it, it'd be a lot easier for early humans to pick around for plants than it would be to create weapons and hunt. Our earliest known ancestors certainly aren't equipped for hunting and meat eating as obviously as say, a lion.

 

[Pegasus]

No, read my post again. Using anthropological evidence (i.e. finding hunting weapons or stories/pictures about hunting) we can say pretty confidantly that people ate animals. I am denying that anyone at all (let alone on BL) knows what people have eaten since "the dawn of time."

If you are familiar with scholarly research on the subject you will know that its an area of debate and no firm conclusions whether humans started out as hunters or as plant gatherers. If you think about it, it'd be a lot easier for early humans to pick around for plants than it would be to create weapons and hunt. Our earliest known ancestors certainly aren't equipped for hunting and meat eating as obviously as say, a lion.

We have evidence that our ancestors, such as Homo habilis, were omnivorous... Homo habilis isn't even 'human' yet, so even before humans became human, they were eating plants and animals.

Notice that UnfortunateSquid used the word 'human', and you are talking about 'our earliest known ancestors'.

 

[skywise]

We have evidence that our ancestors, such as Homo habilis, were omnivorous... Homo habilis isn't even 'human' yet, so even before humans became human, they were eating plants and animals.

Notice that UnfortunateSquid used the word 'human', and you are talking about 'our earliest known ancestors'.

You're right, he said, "Man has been eating animals since the dawn of time." Now, if you want to take a strict interpretation we can call him an idiot for thinking that humans and animals existed at the dawn of time. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt however and assumed he didn't mean that the clade "homo sapien" dated back to the dawn of time but was including some of our earlier ancestors and didn't mean the actual beginning of time.

Anyway, only my last sentence pertained to our earliest ancestors and was for extra support - i.e. if our earliest ancestors aren't strictly and obviously carnivorous its possible that early homo sapiens could have evolved into plant gatherers. The rest of the post was in the context of humans.

If you want more specific information about early humans I can tell you confidantly that vegetarianism at the very least predates 400BC as there is a Platonic diologue from the period advocating the health benefits of not eating meat.

I can also tell you there is anthropological evidence showing that much earlier human societies seem to be vegetarian. Just as we can infer that some early socities did eat meat from hunting tools and drawings, we have found of these societies that there are no hunting materials or drawings that suggest hunting but only farming tools and drawings depicting farming.

Are you trying to defend his statement and argue that you have conclusive evidence that "Man has been eating animals since the dawn of time?" If you succeed you might just find yourself the next nobel prize recipient.

 

[Pegasus]

Are you trying to defend his statement and argue that you have conclusive evidence that "Man has been eating animals since the dawn of time?" If you succeed you might just find yourself the next nobel prize recipient.

No, I just didn't really have any trouble understanding what he was saying. I understood it as "Humans have been eating animals for a long time", except a little more poetic.

 

[skywise]

^ Got ya. I suppose my position stated as simply as you stated his is, "So what?Humans have chosen not to eat animals for a long time too."

 

[Gary Gnu]

there is anthropological evidence showing that much earlier human societies seem to be vegetarian. Just as we can infer that some early socities did eat meat from hunting tools and drawings, we have found of these societies that there are no hunting materials or drawings that suggest hunting but only farming tools and drawings depicting farming.

What evidence?

Scavengers need tools?

You do realize that agriculture is less than 1% of our evolutionary history right?

And that we have pointy teeth?

Sounds like you need to take an anthro class bro.

 

[skywise]

Very early societies that are extraordinarily preserved without any evidence of hunting (or weapons) but with agricultural tools? Seems to suggest that there are people who have survived without meat since early civilization. Its a pretty reasonable inference, I think (and one that was made by the anthropologists who discovered and wrote about the remnants).

Have you ever looked at your teeth? We have 4 pathetic canines and about 24 teeth that are adept at grinding plants.

By saying that agriculture is a small % of our evolutionary history I'm not sure what you're getting it. I never said that we are designed from the ground up as herbivores nor was I citing vegetarian-seeming early societies as evidence for such a claim. As far as whether primeval man (or perhaps better stated, "man's ancestors") were plant gatherers or hunters I said there is no conclusive evidence. The old "bloody tooth" theory is just one among many.

Unless you want to defend this argument we have nothing to argue about:

1) man has eaten animals since the dawn of time
2) man is "meant" or intended for meat (by some creator presumably?)
3) because of 1 and 2 meat eating is the healthy choice of diet

All I've said is that there is not conclusive evidence about 1 (when taken on a liberal interpretation. If we take him literally 1 is obviously false). 2 does not follow from 1 and doesn't seem to make any sense as a sentence in general. The conclusion 3 doesn't follow as true from 1 or 2.

I know he didn't state himself this precisely but this is more or less the spirit of a post that only gives a reference to the vague distant past (did he mean our earliest ancestors? early civ? i don't know so i responded to both) to assert that eating meat is healthy (compared to vegetarianism presumably). I'm sure you can find niggling issues with some of my examples but the point I'm getting across is that the squid guy's post about vegetarianism is screwy and that referring to questionable "facts" about our vague distant past is a slipshod way to respond to concerns about whether vegetarianism is healthy for humans now.

 

[Gary Gnu]

Again..... What studies/digs are you referring to?

I have looked at my teeth. The fossil record of our ancestor’s teeth does not show heavy wear as is often associated with a primarily fibrous diet. Additionally our gut is dominated by small intestines (distinguishing us from other primates). The small intestine is designed to rapidly break down protein rich foods. (Milton, 1999: A Hypothesis to explain the role of meat eating in human evolution.) And you have the archeological evidence found in digs like Olvuvai Gorge in Tanzania, that turned up bones with tangible evidence of early butchery. (Leaky & Lewin 1992)

Also, you might want to check out Tooby & Devore, The reconstruction of hominid behavioral evolution through strategic modeling, 1987.


I am not saying that we must eat meat. Or that is the most healthy thing to do for a modern human that has access to other protein rich sources of food. If I am misunderstanding you, forgive me.

There is clear evidence that humans ate meat and veggies in our ancient past.

If you are claiming otherwise I would like to see something that backs up your claim. I have copies of all of the studies I sited above, so we can discuss them specifically if you like.

 

[shutterbug]

^Oh my god,he was merely making a point. I suppose you'd like to change 'mankind' to 'personkind' too?lol:D

yeah actually i would.

and jay you're soooo funny

 

[ebola?]

>>Using this knowledge it only makes sense (speaking strictly in terms of health) to move towards veganism.>>

mmmm...there's a lot of evidence showing that certain varieties of fish are rather healthy.

ebola

 

[mindbodysOul]

This discussion wasn't really what i intended this thread to be about but anyways,

I've often wondered, if in fact it is true that our origins are of a vegetarian lifestyle, where does the cooking of grains and tough root vegetables come into it?

Are you suggesting that we simply ate wheat, oats, legumes, corn, potatos, etc all raw?? Perhaps they just soaked them in water?

There was no fire back in the day and while i know meat and fish would be palatable to eat raw, i'm not so sure about the tough grains and vegetables? And we cetaintly didnt have mass fields of harvest, if any at all. I would assume it would be much easier to hunt and kill an animal for food then it would be to harvest crop for a whole family or tribe, yes?

 

[Gary Gnu]

I've often wondered, if in fact it is true that our origins are of a vegetarian lifestyle

They are not. See the references I posted above.

I would assume it would be much easier to hunt and kill an animal for food then it would be to harvest crop for a whole family or tribe, yes?

That is a hard comparison. You must know... There is no evidence that early man was involved in agriculture. The earliest evidence of this was a meer 10-15 thousand years ago. A tiny speck in our 2-3 million year existence as a species (longer than that if you want to get into it).

From what is known, we hunted, we gathered , we scavenged. I would guess all were hard.

 

[skywise]

^^ To answer your earlier questions of me:
I'm not claiming that humans did not eat meat and veggies in our distant past. I know there is clear evidence that we did.

I'm just making the much more humble claim that *some* humans from our distant past did not eat meat. Basically I'm saying that one can point to the distant past to show that vegetarianism is long established too. Is it *more* established? I don't know and as I said before its an open question and irrelevant regarding whether its healthier to be a vegetarian now. I don't see how you can say for certain that our origins aren't vegetarian. All we have our theories, not hard facts about that far into the past. You even run into the problem of cladistic distinctions. Saying "the oldest known human ate meat or was vegetarian" could depend on how certain researches decided his toe looked.

As someone who kind of obsesses over being able to cite reputable sources for claims I am very sorry to say that I don't have a specific reference for you as its been a couple years since I've read much on this topic. I was referring to two digs that I read about when I was studying ancient matriarichal societies a couple years ago that described a couple of ancient societies that appeared be vegetarian (as well as matriarchies).

As far as our intestines, there's evidence both ways. If you compare our large intestines to those of a cat or a wolf or any obvious carnivore they are immensely longer compared to the latters' "short tube intestines." Its been conjectured by cancer researches that a link between colon cancer and meat eating in humans (not found in carnivores) can be partially explained by the fact that meat sits in our large intestine so long where potent carcinogens in meat are sucked up.

And as for our teeth: Again, who cares how they once were!? They certainly are more adept now at chewing vegetables than eating a deer or cow. Its hard to even take a bite of a steak without a fork and sharp knife.

 

[skywise]

>>Using this knowledge it only makes sense (speaking strictly in terms of health) to move towards veganism.>>

mmmm...there's a lot of evidence showing that certain varieties of fish are rather healthy.

ebola

If it wasn't for the fact that many fish test for the highest carcinogen content (due to water pollution) among other commonly eaten animals.

 

[skywise]

and jay you're soooo funny

Oh, I didn't mean to further offend you and am sorry. If it helps, I generally use
's/he' or use 'she' and 'he' interchangably when I'm referring to a hypothetical person in papers. I just don't know how helpful it is to the feminist agenda to start criticizing people who are using the language in a standard, dictionary way as if they are saying something that everyone knows to be offensive. If we started trying to reform spanish in this way the poor folks of Mexico and Spain wouldn't even have words with which to speak!

 

[Gary Gnu]

Ah Ok..
No doubt 'some' humans ate little or none at times. I don't think there is any evidence that these few had any influence on our physiology or evolution. I doubt you can show otherwise.

Basically I'm saying that one can point to the distant past to show that vegetarianism is long established

You have yet to show any evidence of this...... *Again*... would love to see it. Apparently the past is not so "vague and distant" when you are tryng to prove a point eh?

As for the issues you bring up about our large intestines... I referenced small intestines as evidence of our adapted ability to digest high protein meals. It had nothing to do with colon cancer rates.

Again... I am not saying eating meat is healthier than not for modern humans, but if you want to pull the anthro card to prove it.... you better pull out your guns

Its been a couple of years since I read much on this subject

Yeah... seems so.