Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[LuGoJ]

simply because that industry have to stop. its a fucking hell for those animals.

fact is, anyone who buys meat encourage that industry and if we were to stop buying meat, that industry would die.


what23: maybe stop thinking what YOU need and think about what the animals around you need and want.

It seems rather unrealistic to expect people to stop consuming meat much like it is unrealistic to expect people stop doing drugs and drinking. I agree, in a perfect world it would be nice if we didn't kill animals but I really can't see it happening.

May as well stop purchasing illegal drugs or any black market products all together if you worried about the pain and suffering of life, a lot blood spilled when it comes to black markets.

Perhaps one day they will be able to breed animals that stay in a permanent sleep, that only sit there like a vegetable and grow, completely unaware of their surroundings or whats going on. That could be a happy medium.

 

[Ninae]

Well, you could also say we are the guardians of all life on the planet, and don't just have the liberty to do as we please.

And we expect a god that looks out for us why? It's not like we look out for the life-forms below us. Why would God care more about a human being than an animal? It's not like we're that different. I wouldn't vote for humans to have special priviliges.

So the way animals are treated is fine but our conditions in life are enough to turn against God?

 

[What 23]

I think we are part of God. God doesn't just create. God destroys also. Humans are probably the most destructive species on earth, and have been for longer than they were human. I'm open to being corrected... But with our nukes we can what, light the earth on fire 11 times? Pretty powerful. But I also think we have the potential to create what we destroy, and more. Potential.

Guardians would be an ideal, but I think we may become that because we realize we must guard it from ourselves. We are, after all, a most destructive force, and this is for a lot of part inevitable, and is pretty much our nature.

God would definitely care more about a human than an animal. A human can build Gods temple. A human can become like God. A human has hands, that can create, and manipulate. A human can be a shepherd. Can plant seeds where seeds wouldn't normally grow. God manifests uniquely through humans. Without humans, life on or from Earth is finite. With humans, it tempts a little more than that... Even while we may destroy life here.

A human can love God.
A human can forgive.

 

[murphythecat]

It seems rather unrealistic to expect people to stop consuming meat much like it is unrealistic to expect people stop doing drugs and drinking. I agree, in a perfect world it would be nice if we didn't kill animals but I really can't see it happening.
.

lets just take one subject at a time

Im only talking to you. you should stop eating meat. and should inform everybody to do so and explain why.

I don't agree, although there are many microbes who may be "superior". It is perception... But humans are apex predators. ...Without getting into possible entities we can't see feeding on things in ways that aren't obvious to most.

Im not apex predator and all humans arent alike. clearly this conversation shows that.
you only can change your behavior. about the entities feeding off you, you cannot do shit. well you can, and only once you will, those entities wont be able to feed off you.

 

[What 23]

Alright, I'm done. I've had enough arguing with vegans/vegetarians who think I need to change my diet because its murder and feelings and stuff for the day.

 

[Ninae]

I won't deny any predatory qualities. I'm pretty fierce on the intellectual level, I have the killer-instinct. The thing is it can be channeled in different ways.

 

[murphythecat]

you mean, you wouldnt be a human if you were all loving, peaceful and happy. true that, you would have never been a human in the first place.
now, if you want to defend the great nation of human beings and defend bad behavior simply by saying, its human nature...
lets just say that I think that we must go beyond our human nature and contact a truly higher form of consciousness based on love, compassion, mindfulness.

Humans didn't get here by being hippies.

 

[-=SS=-]

Well, you could also say we are the guardians of all life on the planet, and don't just have the liberty to do as we please.

Ninae you're projecting and making grand assumptions, making us incredibly important/self-aggrandizement. It's a human trait, we're guilty of doing it a lot, because we don't like to think we're just pawns in someone elses game, as opposed to being some mighty important organism. Did you consider that maybe we're pawns in natures game, and that nature really doesn't care.. that it's just running like any operating system and we're just one bit of software in the overall scheme.

Your part about high quality meat vs sausages etc. I eat what my budget allows (£30 max a week/student), which includes a whole chicken, mackerel, mince meat, plus lots of veg and bits. The worst I eat is dark chocolate. Again, if I had a salary as opposed to being a poor student I would buy top shit.. it's the one thing I'm prepared to shell out on with my money.

The problem of nutrition doesn't end with meat. The mineral content of plant based food has been declining for a long time because, again, industrial process/rapid urbanization requiring quantity over quality. We've absolutely raped the topsoil with poor agricultural practices. I don't hear many vege's or vegans talking about that. When you buy your veg do you know that it's not contributing to this destruction that will eventually cause serious problems for our species and others?...

yes, we clearly are the only species who treat the animals like we do.
by far the most cruel animal on the planet is us because we have the choice to not do so, yet we still do so.
other animals are in survival mode. they cannot take the time to ponder about their diet, we can adn we must.

And we're not in survival mode? We're barely out of the jungle. Don't let technology blind you. Life has changed a lot in 100 years but we're still learning how to care for ourselves and each other. Part of getting ourselves sorted will include fixing all the issues we create, industrial processes being one of them, but we have to remedy ourselves first and foremost. It's like immigration in the UK.. we have to fix our nation first before we invite more people in otherwise we will all sink together.

I'm not going to tie myself up in knots over animal suffering when the most direct root to solving that problem is fixing us first. As with most of our problems. Simply forcing one self or others to not eat meat is not fixing the underlying psychological problems that give rise to the suffering in the first place. It's like whack-a-mole to me.. you have get to the root cause and unplug the fucking machine as opposed to batting them down haha.

Other animals farm. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's symbiotic. The thing we're doing wrong is causing strife for animals when it can be avoided. The milking and killing for flesh is not in itself wrong.

 

[Ninae]

I think we are part of God. God doesn't just create. God destroys also. Humans are probably the most destructive species on earth, and have been for longer than they were human. I'm open to being corrected... But with our nukes we can what, light the earth on fire 11 times? Pretty powerful. But I also think we have the potential to create what we destroy, and more. Potential.

Guardians would be an ideal, but I think we may become that because we realize we must guard it from ourselves. We are, after all, a most destructive force, and this is for a lot of part inevitable, and is pretty much our nature.

God would definitely care more about a human than an animal. A human can build Gods temple. A human can become like God. A human has hands, that can create, and manipulate. A human can be a shepherd.

When you look into an animals eyes you can feel a much higher consciousness. More comparable to a human in its childhood state of life. Animals are more of God but the human soul is further evolved and has the power to do more on earth.

And I don't think God cares more about humans than animals. Just like he doesn't care less about humans than the many life-forms higher than us. "God smiles upon even the smallest insect". I imagine the difference would be irrelevant to him. Like the difference between a spider and a cow doesn't mean all the world to us.

God doesn't care any less about humans than angels. Even the ones who have never left heaven and remained in ther pure divine state. That's how much God loves humanity.

 

[ebola?]

It is a "pseudo" b-12. It plugs in the same way but actually blocks the use of the stuff we need.

It was my understanding that cyanobalamin readily metabolizes to more useful analogues in the body, though the rate and overall efficacy of such metabolism is currently under debate, but it's pretty likely that cyanobalamin is perfectly fine for people without compromised liver-function.

I don't know of any larger algae that produce usable B-12.

Yes, I was thinking specifically about unicellular algae.

I don't hear many vege's or vegans talking about [mineral depletion of soil].

What are you talking about? I have, often. I suspect that you actually interact with a paucity of vegetarians. This was a very common topic on a vegetarian message board I was involved in. But anyway, average mineral content is currently fine, and such nutrients aren't difficult to obtain if one eats many legumes.

When you buy your veg do you know that it's not contributing to this destruction that will eventually cause serious problems for our species and others?...

This point is moot, as we need to feed our livestock plants in order to sustain them. This process is highly inefficient and actually ends up using up roughly an order of magnitude greater agricultural output than plants farmed for food directly.

And again, just because someone tries to reduce harm in one respect doesn't entail that they must do so in every respect for it to be worthwhile.

you have get to the root cause and unplug the fucking machine as opposed to batting them down haha.

It's not like these strategies are mutually exclusive.

ebola

 

[ebola?]

This "superior place in the foodchain" stuff is more something that's been invented to appeal to our egos and defend the meat industry.

It's based on a misunderstanding of what the "food chain" describes. Scientifically, it is a description of how energy flows throughout ecosystems, but people sometimes treat it as a prescription for what organisms should do. Instead, because we are human, we have a lot of choice in what we eat and how it's mediated culturally. Ergo, insofar as people feel inclined, they can approach production and consumption of food on ethical terms. The "food chain" doesn't offer guidance except in illustrating how varied humans' diets have been over time.

ebola

 

[Ninae]

I agree we're not divinely mandated to be at the top. We're not like Prince Charles awaiting his crown. We're more like the rich exploiting the poor. They do because they can. It doesn't make it right.

 

[murphythecat]

couldnt have said it better.
the argument that some do when they say its the food chain or its human nature is simply false.
we, contrary to many animals, are able to make moral choice. since we can, if we dont, we are doomed.

It's based on a misunderstanding of what the "food chain" describes. Scientifically, it is a description of how energy flows throughout ecosystems, but people sometimes treat it as a prescription for what organisms should do. Instead, because we are human, we have a lot of choice in what we eat and how it's mediated culturally. Ergo, insofar as people feel inclined, they can approach production and consumption of food on ethical terms. The "food chain" doesn't offer guidance except in illustrating how varied humans' diets have been over time.

ebola

and SS, theres a lot of thinkgs wrong in killing. if you dont see it, invest more time thinking about the action of killing

 

[Ninae]

As for Prince Charles, at least it's part of his destiny, humans versus animals is not.

 

[LuGoJ]

lets just take one subject at a time

Im only talking to you. you should stop eating meat. and should inform everybody to do so and explain why.


Im not apex predator and all humans arent alike. clearly this conversation shows that.
you only can change your behavior. about the entities feeding off you, you cannot do shit. well you can, and only once you will, those entities wont be able to feed off you.

I still enjoy it too much to stop eating it. When the smell of bacon comes through the room.. man.. I feel like i'm 20 again, senses alert, eyes wide.. a sudden jois de vive. I imagine it's similar to someone that purchases black market goods, fully knowing there is usually organized crime and human suffering attached to it. We say "oh that's terrible, absolutely horrible what those people go through!".. yet as soon as that 8 ball gets tossed on the table.. all bets are off.

Plus, my wife started making our cat's food at home so we always have leftover chicken parts like wings etc that the cat can't eat. I would hate to throw that out.. our cat would probably kill me in my sleep if he knew I was throwing out chicken.

 

[Ninae]

Try eating cold hotdogs as opposed to cold boiled carrots or broccoli mixed with creme fraiche and salt/pepper.

I still enjoy it too much to stop eating it. When the smell of bacon comes through the room.. man..

 

[LuGoJ]

I like raw broccoli and carrots, no need to put anything on them for me!

 

[Erikmen]

or rather stop making babies

and I understand what you mean what23, but our liberty stop when our desire limit or destroy the desire of others.

Very good

 

[Ninae]

Animals shouldn't have to suffer because we can't be bothered to cook.

 

[One Thousand Words]

Why should plants be allowed to suffer?