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Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

Ninae said:
This is a good example of what I meant and what sets of alarm bells when I hear people expressing themselves in that way to begin with. From experience they have either:


a) Some shady moral principles they want to defend (even if it's just denying the harm drug-addiction can do to themselves and people around them).

or

b) Some serious breach in logic somewhere.


Neither of which I think should be encouraged. Not that everyone will turn out like that but more often than not they tend to.

You can also ask yourself of the possibility of discussing the ethics of vegetarianism when it can be hard enough to agree on the most basic moral principles.
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Shady morals according to what Ninae? What makes a moral shady? Because you think a moral is shady it is shady? This is pointless. I'm done.
 
Wrongly assuming something that is bad isn't. Like the example of a drug-addiction someone are in denial of harms them (doesn't apply to when it doesn't harm anyone). It's not subjective, that is my whole point.
 
Ninae said:
I believe in absolutes. I believe things can be either good or bad. I can make excuses and justifications to myself but I can't lie or hide the truth for myself (I don't see it as constructive).

The validity of psychics, or not, is not something that can be proven or disproven objectively and has nothing to do with absolutes as far as I can see.

And I don't try to elevate myself, I'm harder than myself than most. However, I do like to share my spiritual experiences and don't see why we shouldn't. Of course we won't all have had the same experiences to talk about but that's what makes it interesting. Some have met God, some are clairvoyant, but who's to say only the part of it you have experienced is valid? I don't look at it that way - I strive to experience more and acknowledge I can have things to learn from many.
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I disagree, I think your angel ancestrial beliefs support egoic spiritual classism. Some people are angels in disguise based on how their eyes appeal to you. Those who lack that luster are just regular lower spiritually class people. Am I wrong? Or did everyone use to be angels?
 
I think 1 is inaccurate.


1. Its ok when an animal of yours enters your neighbor's yard and eats from their garden, when yours is bare, as long as you let you repay your neighbor with the best of your garden.

it doesn't say you yourself can, nor does it say you don't have to repay.

none of these are stealing more like a forced borrowing.
 
turkalurk said:
Or did everyone use to be angels?
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Yes, human beings in their original divine form were a kind of angels, without exception. But they could more rightly be called divine human beings (with the "Christ" template to work with).

Sometimes it can also get confused as some humans can retain their childhood innocence up until an advanced age and a good/spiritual soul can give off that "angelic" vibe anyway. But it was just meant as a personal outlook, not like the final authority of anything, although some of the examples I gave I have had confirmed (after I suspected it).

Don't worry your mind so much about it, it's just something to share.
 
circular logic! you haven't answered the question of how does one no who is assuming correctly. couodn't it be that you are assuming something is bad because it seems that way to you, but it might just be your assumption and short-sightness. Say you convinced me I ought to eat vegan, but I bought some tainted spinach and died. You thought you were doing a good deed, but you ended up getting me killed! Nobody knows how another should live their life.
 
Anyone downplaying the significance of cattle-farmers grazing on neighboring properties is not familiar with the realities of farming... It is certainly theft, just like stealing a Playstation is... and if you'd ever attempted to operate a cattle farm, you'd be able to see that.
 
turkalurk said:
Say you convinced me I ought to eat vegan, but I bought some tainted spinach and died. You thought you were doing a good deed, but you ended up getting me killed!
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What does this have to do with anything we've talked about?

I didn't buy the spinach, and you might as well have bought it anyway, or bought tainted meat. I wouldn't have meant for you to be killed by tainted spinach as an outcome of being vegan and it's not a likely outcome in any sense. So I don't see how it has anything to do with me or this argument.

As for your other question, I sense spiritual energies because I'm sensitive to them, like someone who is clairvoyant can see energy around people. So I can sometimes pick up on their spiritual nature. That's just how it is.
 
ForEverAfter said:
Anyone downplaying the significance of cattle-farmers grazing on neighboring properties is not familiar with the realities of farming... It is certainly theft, just like stealing a Playstation is... and if you'd ever attempted to operate a cattle farm, you'd be able to see that.
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Absolutism is silly to me. An absolutist takes a stance against, not just the killing of livestock to eat, but supporting the killing by eating it. Then we talk about theft and they say it is always wrong to borrow from your neighbor without asking even when you intend to repay them with the greatest of yours. They didn't have fences and phones in the bible day. Your flock might starve to death before you find them. Furthermore, how would you look for your neighbor and keep your hungry flock from eating whereever they find food?

It seems the absolutist would rather see their whole flock starve to death just to keep their sense of moral integrity intact, just to stay on that high horse.

This exemplifies my point about veganism as an ethical principle, we have know idea what kind of harm veganism as an absolute would cause, but its absurd to think there wouldn't be any.
 
Willow, you mentioned being interested in alternatives, but did you read that link I posted on the lab grown burgers? I have provided a healthy compromise and not one of you has commented on it. DOES IT NOT EXCITE YOU TO BE IN THE MIDST OF PROGRESS?
 
Ninae said:
What does this have to do with anything we've talked about?
I didn't buy the spinach, and you might as well have bought it anyway, or bought tainted meat. I wouldn't have meant for you to be killed by tainted spinach as an outcome of being vegan and it's not a likely outcome in any sense. So I don't see how it has anything to do with me or this argument.

As for your other question, I sense spiritual energies because I'm sensitive to them, like someone who is clairvoyant can see energy around people. So I can sometimes pick up on their spiritual nature. That's just how it is.
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its one thing to THINK you know that eating meat is wrong for you, its another thing to know what everyone ought to do. That is what absolutism implies. I thought you didn't believe in an absolutist position because you said it was a personal thing? I thought you implied no judgement against those who eat meat? Now you are saying their logic is breached, or they are in denial and trying to rationalize the harm they do.
 
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lol, your funny
never even heard of buddhist fondamentalist.
your mixed up, its all right

im a theravada buddhist.

I believe in moral absolutes and so far, no one ever convince me otherwise.
ForEverAfter said:
Murphy is a Buddhist fundamentalist, which can be just as dangerous as being a Christian fundamentalist IMO.
I've been trying to tell him this for some time...

...

I'm not familiar with the apple tree parable. I tried to google the keywords apple / jesus / theft and I couldn't find it.
Can you provide a link?
Thanks.
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ForEverAfter said:
I see... You're talking about moral absolutism, not absolutism.

What are the objective moral absolutes of the universe?
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dont kill
dont steal
dont take something that was not offered.
dont hurt emotionally someone or speak if your intention is to hurt another being.
dont lie

stuff like that is universal moral absolutes and if your goal is to be happy, one need to respect that or else guilt will follow oneselve
 
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Your absolutist beliefs do not seem congruent to theravada buddhism. Its one thing to read some literature and relate wuth how you interpret it, but how much instruction have you had with an actual Buddhist?
 
ive just repeated the buddhist precepts. I mean, its the basic moral conduct of any buddhist and its absolutely congruent with buddhism. :)
and i wont try to show you how much I know about buddhism, I dont see what I will gain from that and I dont see what you try to gain by questionning how much I know.
turkalurk said:
Your absolutist beliefs do not seem congruent to theravada buddhism. Its one thing to read some literature and relate wuth how you interpret it, but how much instruction have you had with an actual Buddhist?
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absolutist belief? why would you even say that. really crazy how much judgments you just portrayed here. questioning how much I know, implying I might not know much, dont see the point at all.

we all have absolute beliefs. everything we do in life is based upon our beliefs.
 
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Ninae said:
Wrongly assuming something that is bad isn't. Like the example of a drug-addiction someone are in denial of harms them (doesn't apply to when it doesn't harm anyone). It's not subjective, that is my whole point.
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What makes something bad?
 
Karma Lekshe Tsomo, a professor of theology and a nun in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, explains,"There are no moral absolutes in Buddhism and it is recognized that ethical decision-making involves a complex nexus of causes and conditions. 'Buddhism' encompasses a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices, and the canonical scriptures leave room for a range of interpretations. All of these are grounded in a theory of intentionality, and individuals are encouraged to analyze issues carefully for themselves. ... When making moral choices, individuals are advised to examine their motivation--whether aversion, attachment, ignorance, wisdom, or compassion--and to weigh the consequences of their actions in light of the Buddha's teachings."
-http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/morality1.htm
 
ForEverAfter said:
Anyone downplaying the significance of cattle-farmers grazing on neighboring properties is not familiar with the realities of farming... It is certainly theft, just like stealing a Playstation is... and if you'd ever attempted to operate a cattle farm, you'd be able to see that.
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After reading this, I realize that you've had absolutely no idea, whatsoever, what I was even talking about.
 
Simply if it hurts yourself or anyone else. But lack of understanding of what is good and bad can lead to just as many problems as bad intentions. That's a way of having "shady moral values" too.

So, as you would say, it shouldn't be that hard to grasp (and please don't answear with something like "But raping someone can be good for me so who's to say it's not good and bad?" Just no).
 
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