• BASIC DRUG
    DISCUSSION
    Welcome to Bluelight!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Benzo Chart Opioids Chart
    Drug Terms Need Help??
    Drugs 101 Brain & Addiction
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums
  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Valproic Acid to combat Methlyphenidate comedown

Jabberwocky

Jabberwocky

Frumious Bandersnatch
Joined
Nov 3, 1999
Messages
1,256
Location
Looking-Glass Land
I have been taking methlyphenidate prolonged release version, and i found out reading through reddit that feeling restlessness and anxious during the come down indicates that the dosage is too high. So I start taking only half of the dosage and the results were impressive, you get the same stimulatory effect, for longer, with a lot less anxiety and come-down symptoms. But it was still not perfect and I still experienced some of it, although it minimized it by a lot, i would say 70%.

Then i've remember a book i've read from the 70s about methamphetamines, and they said all formulations of the drug were in combination with a barbiturate. So I tried to add baclofen when taking methlyphenidate, it didnt improve anything. But it got me thinking about another drug, valproic acid.

So I took 250mg of Valproic acid slow-release and its amazing, i finally dont have any comedown symptoms, you can cruise on this for a very long time. I give that the stimulatory effects are a bit dampen, but there is 0 comedown, you can sleep, and you feel great, increased focus and memory, no anxiety whatsoever, no restlessness, no comedown that feels like after a 24 hour binge of cocaine. Methylphenidate has one of the worst come downs, its not as bad as speed or meth, but its right up there with cocaine come down, probably even more pronounced. So valproic acid is really amazing, it basicly turned this drug into a functional drug.
 
I had the same problem but fixed by taking concerta tablets instead of IR or ER/SR tablets. They release a initial instant release coating followed by a slow release dose over the course of the day.

I used to burst into tears randomly and then realise it was because I was coming down. Also had problems with feeling tweeked out or peripheral nervous stimulation. Concerta has been nothing like that, even on my prescribed 90mg (2x36mg, 1x18mg) or sometimes more.

I’ve never thought of using a mood stabiliser/anti-epileptic like this and would advise caution and education but if it works and you know it’s safe then good for you!
 
TheAcetylationGame said:
I had the same problem but fixed by taking concerta tablets instead of IR or ER/SR tablets. They release a initial instant release coating followed by a slow release dose over the course of the day.

I used to burst into tears randomly and then realise it was because I was coming down. Also had problems with feeling tweeked out or peripheral nervous stimulation. Concerta has been nothing like that, even on my prescribed 90mg (2x36mg, 1x18mg) or sometimes more.

I’ve never thought of using a mood stabiliser/anti-epileptic like this and would advise caution and education but if it works and you know it’s safe then good for you!
Click to expand...
The Methylphenidate formulation I take is 22% instant release + 78% slow release.
But I'm going to switch to Methylphenidate instant release soon.

I thought about using a mood stabilizer like Valproic Acid because the anxiety, restlessness, insomnia and the overall feeling of coming down is attributed to a steep decline of dopamine. I've taken Valproic Acid before and I know that it prevents euphoria while mantaining the pleasure effects of drugs. For example when I took valproic acid and went out in a binge drinking with friends, i would feel pleasure, i could actually discern the pleasure part of alcohol, but had no impulsivity or euphoria.
So putting a cealing on dopamine, would in theory avoid anxiety and restlessness and restore the ability to sleep.
I also know dopamine is what causes insomnia because i've taken selegiline and the increase in dopamine shortens the sleeping time by a lot, without creating any sort of pleasure, euphoria, or elevated mood. I'm pretty sure hypomania and mania is an increase in all 3 neurotransmitors (DA, 5HT, NE), and the DA is what causes the decline of sleep pressure, while 5HT and NE is what causes the elevated mood.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don't, Valproic Acid is not even close to Valerian looking at it from sedative point of view.

Valerenic Acid is the usefull derative based on Valerian, which imo is garbage (the latter) no exp with the former. But Valproic acid is an medication needing liver test before starting. It has no sedating properties.

In the long term it does feel like a dumb drug. Afterbeing on it for a while.
 
emkee_reinvented said:
Don't, Valproic Acid is not even close to Valerian looking at it from sedative point of view.

Valerenic Acid is the usefull derative based on Valerian, which imo is garbage (the latter) no exp with the former. But Valproic acid is an medication needing liver test before starting. It has no sedating properties.

In the long term it does feel like a dumb drug. Afterbeing on it for a while.
Click to expand...

Muh liver enzymes. Just kidding, the benefits outweights the risks of elevated liver enzyms.
 
Update:
I started taking 5mg instant release and redose as soon as the effects wear off. So far im 35mg in and its almost bed time.
By the end of the day there is some tolerance build-up and residual anxiety that does not go away.
So I decided to suppress agitation and anxiety by taking more Valproic Acid. I'm at 1000mg. 2x500mg.

I'm probably going to end the day with 40mg of Methylphenidate and 1000mg of Valproic Acid.
 
There are a number of PubMed articles saying these two drugs are contraindicated due to serious side effects (many of the articles relate to children though).

I’d be having a flick through those as well as this particular experiment.
 
Atelier3 said:
There are a number of PubMed articles saying these two drugs are contraindicated due to serious side effects (many of the articles relate to children though).

I’d be having a flick through those as well as this particular experiment.
Click to expand...
No they cant be contraindicated, at least an absolute contraindication. MET is just a DNRI with some evidence that it also releases some DA or NE.
No important liver enzyms are inhibited from Valproic Acid, and even if they were it would just slow down the metabolism of MET.
 
Sibutramine said:
No they cant be contraindicated, at least an absolute contraindication. MET is just a DNRI with some evidence that it also releases some DA or NE.
No important liver enzyms are inhibited from Valproic Acid, and even if they were it would just slow down the metabolism of MET.
Click to expand...
Sorry man. I’m no expert in these things but I was curious if valproate would work for meth if it works for Methylphenidate so I looked in PubMed for trials data. The articles highlighting contraindication popped up straight away.

Just from a harm minimisation perspective we need to be cautious recommending experimental remedies based on a personal experience if the main body of scientific
literature says something completely different.

So long as people are made aware there are differences of opinion in the scientific community they are more capable of making an informed decision.
 
Atelier3 said:
Sorry man. I’m no expert in these things but I was curious if valproate would work for meth if it works for Methylphenidate so I looked in PubMed for trials data. The articles highlighting contraindication popped up straight away.

Just from a harm minimisation perspective we need to be cautious recommending experimental remedies based on a personal experience if the main body of scientific
literature says something completely different.

So long as people are made aware there are differences of opinion in the scientific community they are more capable of making an informed decision.
Click to expand...
It's very strange, because I took a look at it just now, and nothing popped out. Just some case reports of dyskinesia, with unknown frequency.
Also there is a review about using mood stabilizers for bipolar patients treated with methylphenidate.
There is no reason to think this has any sort of contraindication, in terms of pharmacology at least.

Also if this proves to require very high dosages of Valproic Acid I will stop taking everything and just rule MET as a drug that has not functional value whatsoever. And will change to a tricyclic antidepressant.
 
Update:
I have Topiramate here, after the washout period of Valproic Acid, im thinking of switching to Topiramate.
By various mechanisms it reduces the dopamine release, making MET act more like a potent NRI.
Dopamine is the main thing that causes the comedown effect of methlyphenidate. I'm conviced that mood-stabilizers are the answer to avoid comedowns from stimulants. I'll update on my experiments when I switch.
 
Sibutramine said:
Then i've remember a book i've read from the 70s about methamphetamines, and they said all formulations of the drug were in combination with a barbiturate. So I tried to add baclofen when taking methlyphenidate, it didnt improve anything. But it got me thinking about another drug, valproic acid.

So I took 250mg of Valproic acid slow-release and its amazing, i finally dont have any comedown symptoms, you can cruise on this for a very long time. I give that the stimulatory effects are a bit dampen, but there is 0 comedown, you can sleep, and you feel great, increased focus and memory, no anxiety whatsoever, no restlessness, no comedown that feels like after a 24 hour binge of cocaine. Methylphenidate has one of the worst come downs, its not as bad as speed or meth, but its right up there with cocaine come down, probably even more pronounced. So valproic acid is really amazing, it basicly turned this drug into a functional drug.
Click to expand...

Ive experimented with similar mixtures with good effect. I find the mood stabilizers and antipsychotics like seroquel or depakote have a strong depressant effect that counteracts the negative effects of stimulants.
I see I similar to speedball as I prefer opiates and benzos to mix with stimulants but had many experiences where I used mood stabilizers for relief from coming down and they were absolutely helpful.
And I think the antipsychotics are absolutely a smarter move than using opiates or benzos which cause a comedown of their own.
A small amount of seroquel always worked but I actually found trazadone to have very relieving effects and preferred that.
 
WitchDr said:
Ive experimented with similar mixtures with good effect. I find the mood stabilizers and antipsychotics like seroquel or depakote have a strong depressant effect that counteracts the negative effects of stimulants.
I see I similar to speedball as I prefer opiates and benzos to mix with stimulants but had many experiences where I used mood stabilizers for relief from coming down and they were absolutely helpful.
And I think the antipsychotics are absolutely a smarter move than using opiates or benzos which cause a comedown of their own.
A small amount of seroquel always worked but I actually found trazadone to have very relieving effects and preferred that.
Click to expand...
I tried to use risperidone, but it didnt work very well. But I found it way superior to benzos, like bromazepam or clonazepam.
Valproic acid does work, but after day 2 or 3, it seems like it doesnt work like the first time, so im thinking of switching to Topiramate.
 
Update:
Did the washout period for Valproic acid.
Started 100mg of Topiramate
2.5 hours in and its making me feel dizzy, similar to baclofen but less intense. It is suppressing methylphenidate stimulant effect by a lot, so far no comedown effect.
I feel like 100mg is too much, will reduce to 50mg tomorrow.

Also I've isolated the "comedown" element im struggling with and its nomenclature, so i'm starting to read the scientific literature about it so I can better understand how to combat this. I really dont want to give up on methlyphenidate and make it a functional drug.
 
Okay this is has a different nature than Valproic Acid.
There is definitly a gabapentinoid aspect to it which is absent in VPA, along with stronger calming effect. It is still to early to know if it will also work the same the next days or if its like VPA which stop working after 2 days. But I can already know I will have a really good night of sleep.
 
My plan for tomorrow

ritalin-topiramate.png
 
I've downloaded a pharmokinetics software and created a compound which mimics the rubifen formulation with data avaible in drugsbank and pubchem to simulate the instante release methylphenidate and find the appropriated administration protocol.
Its more of an approximation of the what really happens but its close enough to work with.
I found for a 16 hour day, 4x20mg of Methylphenidate is enough to maintain appropriated plasma levels.


rubifen-4x-daily.png


Last night I took 140mg and was stimulated all day and went to bed still very stimulated and with 100mg of Topirmate before bed I was able to sleep 10 hours which is amazing.
My initial approach to this was to suppress dopamine release with co-administration of topiramate and MPH as I thought dopamine release and subsequent lack of it was what caused the comedown, and topiramate could be used to removed dopamine, so in theory the comedown effect would not appear, but I was wrong and still occured.
I noticed the suppression of the stimulating effects and sedating effects of the topirmate, proprieties which makes it ideal to take before going to bed, while avoiding the comedown during the day by just taking more MPH. And it does work as expected, with comedown avoided, very good sleep, making MPH a functional drug that can be taken daily.
I'm going to conclude that Topiramate is the best drug for any stimulant comedown, the mechanisms by which it works are numerous and include suppression of anxiety and stimulation, sedation, promotion of sleep, dopamine reuptake, and many more. I havent tried Lithium or Lamotrigine, so I can't say its the best one, but it has definitly a unique mechanism of action, which is not found in any other mood-stabilizer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top