Opioids Using tramadol as a tool

[mister-green]

After being given tramadol post-surgery, it felt as if a switch was flipped in my brain. I've struggled with depression, anxiety, and low self-esteem. The tramadol made me feel peaceful, hopeful, like taking a warm bath after being out in the cold for too long.

I've done a lot of reading on opioids lately and have learned I need to be very careful not to start abusing them. That being said, I was wondering if people have been able to successfully use tramadol as a tool for improving their life.

To give an example: I recently took a 50 mg tablet before attending a social event, and learned that simply being relaxed and easy-going is key to pleasant conversation. Although I was aware of this on a conceptual level for a long time, I've been finally been able to put it into practice. This gut-level realization has carried over into the rest of my life, even when not under the influence of tramadol.

I've talked with my doctor about this, he told me he wasn't going to prescribe tramadol off-label. He was willing to let me try conventional anti-depressants. These have been quite disappointing however: few discernible positive effects, lots of horrible side-effects, so I've stopped using them. I currently live a reasonably functional life: I work and have a good relationship.

Say I decide to keep experimenting with tramadol. Are there rules I can set to improve the odds of doing it in a safe manner? I already keep track of the doses I'm taking. I was thinking of the following:

• No more than 3 50 mg doses per week
• No dosing on consecutive days
• After 3 weeks, take a week off
• No recreational use

I'm very interested in hearing from people here who have been in a similar position and have tried using tramadol longer-term.

 

[4DQSAR]

Tramadol was explored as an antidepressant.

Sci-Hub. Low-Dose Tramadol as an Off-Label Antidepressant: A Data Mining Analysis from the Patients’ Perspective / ACS Pharmacology & Translational Science, 2020

The interesting detail (to me) is that it MAY be the non-opioid stereoisomer that has antidepressant properties.

Because when all is said an done, tramdol was pushed as being a cheap, less abusable alternative to codeine but here in the UK we had a mini-epidemic of people who reckoned that a strip of ten 30mg codeine phosphate tablets could be emulated by a strip of ten 50mg tramadol capsules. Deaths were not caused by the respiratory failure produced by 'classic' opioids and since I learned that I have been asking why tramadol ($500/Kg) wasn't simply being resolved so that 25mg estramadol (S)-tramadol capsules could be prescribed for pain and 25mg of artramadol (R)-tramadol for depression.

Sure, resolution would push up that price a bit but as long as it all gets uses, it's STILL going to work out at <$500/Kg for either.

 

[Skorpio]

This sounds like a recipe for addiction in the long term. You will likely get away with it for some time, but 9x month tramadol usage will condition your brain to like it more and more until daily use (of some opioid) seems to make so much more sense than doing it only thrice per week.

I am a little biased, as I feel like opioids are the best social lubricant for myself. It has been 1.5 years since I have had any kind, and despite my habit mainly being kratom for the past 5 or so years prior (month or two of daily use then maybe a month off), it was still a Herculean effort to quit and resist the temptation to use again.

Finally, I feel like I did myself a disservice, as I suspect that I could have been building healthier coping mechanisms during the time I was using.

 

[doubledog]

I know a guy who used tramadol for same reasons as you suggest. It seemed to have helped him and he did not develop addiction, but to be honest, his endeavours with psychedelics helped him much more.

 

[mister-green]

This sounds like a recipe for addiction in the long term. You will likely get away with it for some time, but 9x month tramadol usage will condition your brain to like it more and more until daily use (of some opioid) seems to make so much more sense than doing it only thrice per week.

Yeah, maybe I'm fooling myself already? It seems to be the perfect drug for me, it's everything I've ever wanted. I'm getting emotional even thinking about it now.

The thing is, I've experienced a huge disappointment recently, resulting in a big loss of motivation. After a few weeks of being glued to my couch after work, I decided to see if the tramadol I still had laying around would help me out. I've used it nine times during the last month. I taken my last dose more than a week ago. I've still got a few pills left but I guess I better take it easy for a while now.

 

[mister-green]

I know a guy who used tramadol for same reasons as you suggest. It seemed to have helped him and he did not develop addiction, but to be honest, his endeavours with psychedelics helped him much more.

Care to elaborate?

 

[WellTram]

Tramadol is one of my favourite opioids. It is classified as a weak one but 100mg of oral tramadol provides me more of a high than 10mg of morphine.
1, Your liver converts it into full and very functional potent opioid with half-life of almost 9 hours
2, It is hybrid - half of its effects are due to indirect dopamine release due to opioid effects and other half is SNRi + direct serotonine releasing effects ( something like amphetamines do, mostly mdma but all of them to some degree )
3, It's long duration of action, stimulating and empathogenic properties makes it great social substance.

So, if it works for u ( it means u are good cyp2d6 metaboliser ), use small doses and u will be ok.
Staggering doses makes its half-life even longer and anything higher than 250-400mg is capable of causing seizures. I know people using 1000mg doses not having single seizure in whole life, I also know somebody who used 300mg and seized badly.

Great hybrid social stimulant, painkiller, anxiolytic, antidepressant if used in a responsible way

 

[ridingthewaves]

I mean if you can manage to not get addicted to it... it's a great drug. Nice high, you can function and not seem like you're on drugs, and no comedown (at least for me anyway) but that's almost the problem. It's SO good.

I started off like you, tramadol once or twice a week for YEARS and then I added another day, and another, and before I knew it I was taking it all day everyday.

It's kind of a weird one because it's almost like an upper and a downer and a social drug all rolled into one. But that also means it's good for every occasion. Which was dangerous because I was using it to fall asleep, using it to clean the house, using it to socialize. It was all purpose.

And can I just say the withdrawal is HELL.
It's not worth it. And the half life is so long even if you're only using it twice a week it'll still be in your system majority of the time anyway.

I was like you many years ago and I wish I never touched it.

 

[mister-green]

I was like you many years ago and I wish I never touched it.

Have you been able to stop using it?

 

[doubledog]

Care to elaborate?

Sorry, not much, as he didn't share with me much more.
I just know that he suffered from social anxiety quite a lot, then started to selfmedicate himself with tramadol, but then with ayahuasca analogues. From my perspective, after this period, his condition has improved a lot. Ofc, my guess is that psychedelics helped him more than tramadol use.

 

[tryptakid]

Opioids are fantastic anti-depressants. Depression is painful, and thus, pain killing is quite lifting. Tramadol also has some additional serotonin releasing effects which could possibly enhance some of the benefits. @4DQSAR is much more well versed in the chemistry side, so I defer to him when it comes to that sort of thing. Always interested in his takes on some of this stuff.

As @Skorpio mentioned - the biggest risk is habituation. If something works well, why not use it more often, more frequently, or just more of it. Opioids are best managed by someone else - a physician who can ensure that they're being used appropriately and not being misused. It can be very difficult to self-manage them because they're so effective and so forgiving - up until you suddenly find yourself needing them to get out of bed. Heroin was super helpful for me for about 3 months - I was a great employee, felt a ton of extra social energy, and felt my life markedly improve. Then one day, after using all weekend and finishing what I had left over on the monday that followed, I woke up sick. It was an insidious feeling - I immediately knew that I needed dope before I went to work. I copped, got high, and sent into motion a series of events that would lead to my life as I knew it falling apart.

If you were to use tramadol in the way you set out - HAVE SOMEONE ELSE HOLD THEM and give them to you when you agree it would be useful. Have that person keep track of frequency, dose etc. Have rules and stick with them. That's the only way you could use them effectively without risk of dependence, addiction, and withdrawal.

 

[Skorpio]

Yeah, maybe I'm fooling myself already? It seems to be the perfect drug for me, it's everything I've ever wanted. I'm getting emotional even thinking about it now.

The thing is, I've experienced a huge disappointment recently, resulting in a big loss of motivation. After a few weeks of being glued to my couch after work, I decided to see if the tramadol I still had laying around would help me out. I've used it nine times during the last month. I taken my last dose more than a week ago. I've still got a few pills left but I guess I better take it easy for a while now.

I get it.

Another data point is that it took me a while to escalate to where I’d run kratom for a month or two then quit and be feeling shitty with PAWs until I restarted.

In my opinion, long-term intermittent use of opioids for mood boosting can be extremely tricky and requires more willpower than I have.

 

[tryptakid]

The guardrails that often help to not encourage over use are notably lacking in opioids - they don't make you feel uncomfortably high, no racing heart or muscle tension, no panic spirals, no overly intoxicated slurring or discombobulation in the way something like alcohol might - certainly they can become physically impairing to a degree in very high doses, but the dose/response curve is much more favorable in contrast to drugs like alcohol, stimulants cannabis, and dissociatives.

There's not really a hangover to speak of - you can use in the evening and wake up feeling refreshed and invigorated the next day - very forgiving in this way.

They don't immediately build tolerance in a way that requires you to rapidly escalate your dose to get benefits - though over time tolerance creeps up and dose increases will eventually occur. Still, unlike drugs like psychedelics, you can use multiple days in a row and still get a lot of benefit.

They don't inherently take over the activity you're engaged in - you can use them while working, while socializing, hanging out by yourself or in a public place. They fit well in the morning alongside a cup of coffee, can be a nice after work treat, and in general don't interfere with sleep in the same way as other drugs (though there can be some impairment to sleep onset, but they aren't going to jack you up all night like meth, coke, psychedelics, or dissociatives can.

The lack or low impact of many of these guardrails which tend to be inherently protective against misuse, overuse, and ultimately dependence formation, provides ample substrate for developing dependence, frequency of use, and the slow creep into your daily routine in the sneakiest of ways. I mean - who doesn't want to feel less bad? They offer a compelling rationale for utility that can be deceiving.

 

[WellTram]

The guardrails that often help to not encourage over use are notably lacking in opioids - they don't make you feel uncomfortably high, no racing heart or muscle tension, no panic spirals, no overly intoxicated slurring or discombobulation in the way something like alcohol might - certainly they can become physically impairing to a degree in very high doses, but the dose/response curve is much more favorable in contrast to drugs like alcohol, stimulants cannabis, and dissociatives.

There's not really a hangover to speak of - you can use in the evening and wake up feeling refreshed and invigorated the next day - very forgiving in this way.

They don't immediately build tolerance in a way that requires you to rapidly escalate your dose to get benefits - though over time tolerance creeps up and dose increases will eventually occur. Still, unlike drugs like psychedelics, you can use multiple days in a row and still get a lot of benefit.

They don't inherently take over the activity you're engaged in - you can use them while working, while socializing, hanging out by yourself or in a public place. They fit well in the morning alongside a cup of coffee, can be a nice after work treat, and in general don't interfere with sleep in the same way as other drugs (though there can be some impairment to sleep onset, but they aren't going to jack you up all night like meth, coke, psychedelics, or dissociatives can.

The lack or low impact of many of these guardrails which tend to be inherently protective against misuse, overuse, and ultimately dependence formation, provides ample substrate for developing dependence, frequency of use, and the slow creep into your daily routine in the sneakiest of ways. I mean - who doesn't want to feel less bad? They offer a compelling rationale for utility that can be deceiving.

This....
They are actually subtle ( if u don't take A LOT ) but like the previous poster said, they are almost lacking everything that makes you not taking them even if u dont need to for pain, they will help with anxiety, depression, energy...U can be absolutely functional on them IF u can handle the dangerous part of opioid using - dependence. So
1, managing to use them responsibly to avoid getting physically dependent - on your own, this is sooo difficult.
2, asking family member or somebody u can trust to keep them and only provide you with certain number of pills when it's the right time to use them and there is no risk of suddenly being sick and in wd when effects wear off...

Think about it. Twice at least. Tramadol ( if works for you ) is especially great tool cause of its hybrid stim/opioid/ad effects and long duration but it is as capable of creating physical dependency as...for example any other opioid - oxy, morphine or methadone ..

If i were you, I will kindly ask somebody i trust to control my usage.
Now I do it on my own cause I can't trust anybody but i won't sugarcoat it, I use low doses but certain degree of physical dependency is present...nothing horrible like full wd with vomiting and diarrhea if I don't take at least 1 pill at the morning but definitely feeling some discomfort related to lack of that one pill..

Use them as a tool, don't abuse them.

 

[Halif2]

This sounds like a recipe for addiction in the long term. You will likely get away with it for some time, but 9x month tramadol usage will condition your brain to like it more and more until daily use (of some opioid) seems to make so much more sense than doing it only thrice per week.

The lack or low impact of many of these guardrails which tend to be inherently protective against misuse, overuse, and ultimately dependence formation, provides ample substrate for developing dependence, frequency of use, and the slow creep into your daily routine in the sneakiest of ways. I mean - who doesn't want to feel less bad? They offer a compelling rationale for utility that can be deceiving.

<bold text placed by me for emphasis>

True and relatable. Beautifully described.

I've said in the past here on BL that I may be in a minority of people who made an active decision to step into opiate/opioid addiction. Fairly late in life, too (early 30s). And to OP: I have used that exact "warm bath" metaphor in the past, too. For some people, opiates/opioids (or maybe just one particular opioid, in this case tramadol) are borderline mystical in their effect.

There's a potent strain of mood disorder - diagnosis is 'depression' but I feel like that term is overused, misunderstood, and has lost meaning - that runs through the maternal side of my family and which I have the misfortune of inheriting. I spent my 20s trying all kinds of things out of desperation to "fix myself". Some of those things were really valuable (e.g. breath meditation), some were highly potent and commanded discipline (plant based psychotropics), and others were hit 'n' miss to the extent they were sometimes actively harmful (e.g. therapy). But I couldn't "fix myself" and a frightening sense of something inescapable was looming. I felt like I was on the ocean floor and being squeezed so tight I couldn't move or breathe.

Around this time, it was the second or third time of messing around with codeine cold water extracts that one day I hit the sweet spot and discovered that I was able to feel a way that I had never known existed - like seeing a new colour which cannot be explained or compared. It was the negation of an intangible weight I didn't know I was carrying. This was just as profound as the small (count on one hand) number of mushroom and cacti trips that had temporarily relieved a lot of the weight which was keeping me deep under water.

Long story short: I was very cautious with my opiate use allowing only one (then two, three) evenings per week for about 3 years, but eventually I realised that when I was not using opiates I was literally counting down the days (and sometimes hours) until I could use them again. That's not really a way to live a life (or so I thought at the time). So I decided to accept the consequences and go "all in". I don't mean to say that I went from using a bit of codeine once or twice a week to injecting fentanyl into my balls overnight. Rather, I stopped fighting so hard against myself and permitted myself to take it when I felt like - which was every day.

Big time jump (almost exactlly 20 years). Did it ruin my life? Not exactly. Did it take me in a bad direction? Absolutely.

I have ended up where many (most?) people who have this affinity for opiates end up: daily intravenous heroin.

I've spent my life savings. Lost a job (almost lost two) to it. Lost my long term partner (close to 19 year of marriage). Become socially isolated. My health is shit.

The million dollar question: Do I regret it?

I can't answer that. I regret the way things have turned out, but I believe that when I first started using codeine regularly I was slowly but surely moving towards an abyss which represented a terminus. Incidentally, a cousin of mine who was also inflicted with this family curse took his own life right at the age that I was in when I felt like I was at the bottom of the ocean with no way out. So I believe opiates saved my life and then added a lot of damage and suffering to it. It's a seemingly impossible scenario to navigate well.

And after all this, I still want to learn how to use in moderation. I don't think I can because I've been trying and failing for two decades, but I know that I cannot live without them.

Oof, sorry for the life story, folks. Damn, that morning coffee hit hard and got me oversharing like a mo' fo'.

 

[Opana313]

It seems to be the perfect drug for me, it's everything I've ever wanted.

Definitely a recipe for addiction. I felt this way when I first met a 30mg oxy..then after falling all over myself i started getting "smart" and picking up tramadol, to help not use all my oxy so fast.

Of course this turned into using both and whatever else.

Tramadol is a great stimulating buzz yet nodding high, and yes will make every social interaction better, in fact ANY drug your mind & body deem extraordinary, is not entirely false, but to me its a big red flag.

Trust me, the last thing you want is your tolerance crawling up to 6-10, 50mg trams a day..

Worst withdrawal ever. There was a point in time where I felt I could never be free from the depression & pain from WD, I just said, maybe all I need is two of these pills every day for the rest of my life? My best friend was like fuck no man..

That was about 15 years ago, and giving up Tramadol was basically impossible without hydrocodone, codeine, or kratom - and benzos.

Now I am pushing 40 and fell back into psychedelics to unfuck my triggers.. I also use it as a reward and gives me REASON to work hard on being a better version of myself.. in the beginning I HAD TO HAVE OPIOIDS & A BENZO in order to enjoy my trip and not freak out..then turned into only using a few hydros the night before or after a trip...now I am just tripping when I feel I am ready for the next experience and hallucinogens helped show me that hey mushrooms and LSD truly are great tools

They proved I am stronger than I realized both mentally and physically..but something about that reset is very very important to me.

I will always love opioids but trust me you do not want to wake up at 4am covered in sweat, shaking, and worst diarrhea ever..and realize you only have two or three Tramadol and you need to get ready for work.. and that is simply no way to live trust me.

 

[4DQSAR]

All tramadol ever did for me was to marginally reduce the pain and see me end up in hospital not once but TWICE due to it's nasty side-effects.

 

[Cheradenine]

As someone who has my own peculiar version of ADHD i can say that Tramadol is the most efficient drug to get things done. It does everything that Ritalin and Vyvanse are supposed to do but dont really do. More precisely, I find that tramadol's serotonergic properties puts my libido under control, while stimulants make it go crazy. I can be efficient, social and functional on stimulants, but it is a train that easily can be derailed. On tramadol I'm totally stable. I enjoy amphetamine more, but Tramadol honestly comes close. But I can take stimulants regularly for weeks and months and then stop for weeks or months without any withdrawal. I have a strong suspicion that if I did the same with Tramadol it would not be so easy. I have read many horror stories about tramadol withdrawal. Apparently you basically get opioid withdrawal plus the antidepressant withdrawal simultaneously. It may also be worth noting that some people on bluelight have complained that the magic of Tramadol was gone after they tried stronger opioids.

In any case I would not take any drug on a regular basis unless properly prescribed by a medical practitioner. Where are you going to get your supply from? I have no idea how the illegal tramadol market is, but I would expect that you sooner or later may get something else such as fentanyl instead.

 

[4DQSAR]

As someone who has my own peculiar version of ADHD i can say that Tramadol is the most efficient drug to get things done.

That's the thing - there are two stereoisomers. One is in essence a semi-rigid bioisostere of codeine i.e. and opioid and another which has no opiate activity whatsoever but monkeys around with monoamine levels.

It's almost certainly this non-opioid stereoisomer that is of value in treating things where modulation OF those monoamine levels works but it seems while the mixture was triallled for quite a few disorders nobody resolved the two stereoisomers to remove the opioid (or equally when analgesia is the goal, JUST the opioid stereoisomer).

It's off-patent and while various people have patented tramadol for other uses, I sincerely doubt those patents would stand up in court and doctors would dispense the cheap generic original.

I strongly suspect the opioid stereoisomer's fate was sealed because of O-DMT being sold as an RC i.e. anyone considering a GSL WOULD consider that they would be handing a licence to what amounts to a known 'drug of abuse'.

But I think most of all it's the fact that so many anecdotal stories of it treating so many things is in a way unhelpful as what would the indications be? Do you see what I mean? Off-label I guess specialists could prescribe tramadol as it exists but the sheer RANGE of activties does rather underline how unreliable the action is.

 

[mister-green]

Oof, sorry for the life story, folks. Damn, that morning coffee hit hard and got me oversharing like a mo' fo'.

No need to apologize, thank you for your candor.

The beginning of your story sounds very familiar. I've always experienced life as unsatisfactory, a problem to be solved. Most of my past behavior can be characterized as resistance to the current reality and hoping for relief in the future.

A while ago, I ate a piece of hash which turned out to be more potent than I had anticipated. I was overwhelmed by fear, yet something in me decided to let go completely. I was ready and willing to die on the spot if necessary. That moment, the fear dissolved completely and I had an amazing trip. Interestingly, I lived the next couple of weeks in some kind of pseudo-enlightened state where everything seemed to just flow naturally.

Sadly, my normal state of consciousness returned after a while. Yet, after 20 years of stagnation I've started turning my life around, trying to use all the tools at my disposal. I'm awfully grateful to tramadol for providing relief and showing me what is possible, yet I recognize that looking the beast in the eye when it rears its ugly head is an equally important duty as the flip side of the coin.

If you were to use tramadol in the way you set out - HAVE SOMEONE ELSE HOLD THEM and give them to you when you agree it would be useful.

In my opinion, long-term intermittent use of opioids for mood boosting can be extremely tricky and requires more willpower than I have.

managing to use them responsibly to avoid getting physically dependent - on your own, this is sooo difficult

So, I gather that any level of consistent, long-term use of tramadol will escalate towards addiction. I was going to ask whether incorporating month-long breaks would be a way to prevent this, but I guess the crux of the matter is that an external enforcement mechanism is necessary to prevent abuse.

I have been asking why tramadol ($500/Kg) wasn't simply being resolved so that 25mg estramadol (S)-tramadol capsules could be prescribed for pain and 25mg of artramadol (R)-tramadol for depression.

The interesting detail (to me) is that it MAY be the non-opioid stereoisomer that has antidepressant properties.

Sounds like you're on to something. I found the following in A call to develop tramadol enantiomer for overcoming the tramadol crisis by reducing addiction:

The (+)-enantiomer of tramadol acts as a mu-opioid receptor agonist and by inhibition of the reuptake of serotonin, whereas (–)-enantiomer inhibits noradrenalin reuptake.