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  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Lysergamides Using LSD as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

JackARoe said:
But as I said in another thread give a genuine South American shaman LSD instead of ayahuasca. I am sure a mind would be as blown if not more.
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brokedownpalace10 said:
It's all about intent. Have an LSD ceremony with fasting, intent and seeking healing and you will have a different experience than if you go hang gliding.
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Criticism of that viewpoint posted on reddit:

The duration and overall dynamic is different. LSD has a peak and then slowly subsides. Aya comes and goes, it has many peaks. The ceremony is designed for those peaks. Also, the effects are completly different: in my time I dropped absurd, more than heroic, almost godlike quantities of LSD, and never left this world. With a small quantity of Aya you can leave this universe and return as a changed, more balanced human being. There is a metaphysical component to Ayahusca that LSD just can’t provide, unless you’re willing to pray to a bicicle god and a swiss chemist.

Not to mention the complete lack of respect taking LSD in an Aya ceremony would imply…

RencillosaMulaArabe, May 22, 2024, reddit

Wanna see something funny? That reddit thread is my thread about this same topic and that person used the same quote that a Bluelighter used on the first page of this thread:

To quote the great philosopher, Jeff Goldblum: “Your scientists were so preoccupied with wether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should”. Safe travels. (reddit, May 23 2024)

TheFunkeeJunkee said:
"You scientists are so preoccupied with whether or not you could, you didn’t stop to think if you should."
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I do think there is something unique about DMT. I think it gives you access to a deeper place within. But having said that - I WORSHIP LSD.
 
red22 said:
Criticism of that viewpoint posted on reddit:

The duration and overall dynamic is different. LSD has a peak and then slowly subsides. Aya comes and goes, it has many peaks. The ceremony is designed for those peaks. Also, the effects are completly different: in my time I dropped absurd, more than heroic, almost godlike quantities of LSD, and never left this world. With a small quantity of Aya you can leave this universe and return as a changed, more balanced human being. There is a metaphysical component to Ayahusca that LSD just can’t provide, unless you’re willing to pray to a bicicle god and a swiss chemist.
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Thanks for the perspective Red. Actually is a great example of why I even posted that LSD was as relevant. That is a very poetic paragraph. But it also is the notion I was looking for to exactly counterpoint. I could probably type up something similar but we all know these experiences are too subjective to say anything definitive. Both LSD and DMT are important for sure.

To me, (and again I love DMT as well) LSD thrown out into the public was more world changing than DMT in the jungles. I think similar to tribes in a jungle, the "hippy" tribe, ones who gravitated towards LSD in the 60's and continued till today are as relevant as a tribe. They even created music. And they are dispersed and look like part of the normal population. lol That is a bonus. We have us here.

I would still love to read about natives comparing too. But even then they all have their own subjective experience.
 
Harmalas and L, Psilo, Mesc, and DMT all have a synergistic effect. It deepens and richens the experience. I first read about the other "non-Aya" combinations involving harmalas and traditionals in The Secret Chief and promptly began my own field research :)

TarzanDoesThings, Mar 24 22, reddit


Harmalas and L & mescaline. Are not recommended combos. Doesn’t synergize like it does with dmt tryptamines

Evening_Lynx_9348, Mar 26 2022


"DMT tryptamines?" I don't even know what those are ;) L is a tryptamine, too. Going from personal field research, they do blend well together.

TarzanDoesThings, Mar 26 2022


LSD is a lysergamine. It has a tryptamine backbone but has extra complexities. I’ve done it before too, I’ve had a good experience and another experience where it made me feel physically Ill. On trip sit the combo is low risk and decrease.

The mescaline/ maoi combo is a cautionary combo because the maoi can increase phenethylamine unpredictably which is dangerous.

And I mean dmt, psilocybin, psilocin, 4-aco-dmt. Things like that explored dmt base tryptamines, which we know are safe with MAOI.

Evening_Lynx_9348, Mar 26 2022


Probably the first and most important rule for Western drug experimenters to remember is that THE HARMALA ALKALOIDS (OR ANY MAOI) MUST NEVER BE COMBINED WITH ANY AMPHETAMINE-TYPE DRUG — THIS SPECIFICALLY INCLUDES PEYOTE AND SAN PEDRO, AS WELL AS MDMA (ECSTASY).

Jim DeKorne. Psychedelic Shamanism. 1994. Ayahuasca And Its Analogues: Harmine and DMT, pg. 93


Psilocin, DMT, mescaline and LSD are safe to use in combination with harmalas.
But do not ingest amphetamines, mdma or other synthetic phenethylamines,
or stimulants in general, or any strong medication that interacts with your neurotransmitters while under the influence of harmala alkaloids. This can be fatal, you may die!

Pandemoon, 2017-03-16, Harmala extraction from Syrian Rue using water, vinegar & soda


General rule is no. There are a lot of additional alkaloids in cactus extract that can interact badly with MAOIs.

powerful_cactus, Mar 25 2024, reddit


That guy had a mescaline extract. Cactus tea has other alkaloids in it that interact with Māois

Think4urself444, Mar 26, 2024


What additional alkaloids react badly with Syrian rue

limpDick9rotocal, Mat 26 2024


Dopaminergic stimulants,mostly.

TonyHeaven, Mar 26 2024


Ignorant fucks...

My lack of further experience with pure harmaline derives from my having been engaged, since the time of the above research, in the study of harmaline combinations: harmaline-MDA, harmaline-TMA[1], harmaline-mescaline and others.

[1] TMA: trimethoxyamphetamine.

The Healing Journey: New Approaches to Consciousness. Claudio Naranjo, 1974. 4. Harmaline and the Collective Unconscious, p. 121

Combining MDx with harmalas

 
red22 said:
The healthiest, most euphoric psychedelic effect I ever felt was oral bufotenine after oral harmine: Herbal ecstasy is real
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What's the nausea like with bufotenine? To my shame I had to stop ayahuasca - just couldn't take the nausea anymore...but I had some times. 4-aco-dmt always improved on ayahuasca for me - I found it a lot more comfortable and euphoric.
 
None, but you can't go high with bufotenine or 5-MeO-DMT because they can cause serotonin syndrome.

“I have heard very mixed reports from trials employing P. harmala and the second of the biotic tryptamines, 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine, or 5-MeO-DMT. Apparently, modest amounts of both components gives a modest experience, but I have had two reports of truly toxic crises with larger quantities.”

Alexander Shulgin. TiHKAL (part 1). Shulgin A, Shulgin A. 1997. 16. Hoasca vs. Ayahuasca, p. 302

"I never had the guts to try this combination again, which I think is probably for the best. When I read Shulgin's TiHKAL in 1999, I read that 5-MeO-DMT in combination with MAOIs has caused some dangerous hypertensive experiences, which certainly fits in with the headaches and pounding heartbeat I experienced."

Murple. "A Bad Combination: An Experience with Pharmahuasca (Syrian Rue & 5-MeO-DMT) (exp2362)". Erowid.org. Jul 13, 2000. erowid.org/exp/2362 (Afterword)
 
red22 said:
LSD with harmalas
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I've used this combination maybe 30-50 times all together if I were to hazard a guess. I usually just refer to it as Lysergahuasca. LSA I've tried with harmalas twice and it induced serotonin syndrome both times, but LSD combined beautifully with caapi tea, Syrian rue, pasionflower concentrates that are potent enough to inhibit MAO-A a little bit, pure harmaline (freebase), harmine (HCl I think), tetrahydroharmine freebase, and some full spectrum pulls as well. Normally LSD lasts 9-12 hours I'd guess, but if I potentiate it with anywhere from 125-300mg of total harmala alkaloids, it's lasting 16-36 hours depending on the doses of both the harmalas and the LSD. The experience is significantly more tranquil, with an empathogenic and colorful side to it that feels almost too fast to notice when using LSD on its own. Harmalas are like wise teachers that capture LSD's attention and the trip you take is the lesson that LSD is learning, as it does so.

This combination is uniquely effective for some reason at causing anxious people to bug the fuck out. People I know who've done thumbprints of crystal LSD, people who are involved in higher level trade of lysergamides, all of them run a higher risk of freaking out for some reason, on this mix. It makes LSD feel much "deeper", much more like a significant spiritual or mystical experience. Tetrahydroharmine helps with clarity a lot, and sinicuichi smoked (avoid sun tea, seems to be dangerous) can enhance things. Harmalas can be eaten, drank, insufflated, or vaporized. Be wary of lotus flowers and MAOIs, I've had it induce full on psychedelic experiences that I can't really explain as far as possible pharmacokinetic mechanisms as to why that could even occur.
 
Esperighanto said:
Be wary of lotus flowers and MAOIs, I've had it induce full on psychedelic experiences that I can't really explain as far as possible pharmacokinetic mechanisms as to why that could even occur.
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Interesting. Could you elaborate? What if one smoked Rue and then smoked Blue Lotus? What did you do?
 
Esperighanto said:
This combination is uniquely effective for some reason at causing anxious people to bug the fuck out. People I know who've done thumbprints of crystal LSD, people who are involved in higher level trade of lysergamides, all of them run a higher risk of freaking out for some reason, on this mix. It makes LSD feel much "deeper", much more like a significant spiritual or mystical experience.
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In my limited experience, it makes LSD seem like a tryptamine. And being the sensitive person that I am, prone to bad trips, I have a distaste for tryptamines: I ingested the LSD first and only ingested the caapi as an afterthought and when it started to kick in and my visions started looking all gnarly, I was like, oh, no, I didn't want this!
 
red22 said:
In my limited experience, it makes LSD seem like a tryptamine. And being the sensitive person that I am, prone to bad trips, I have a distaste for tryptamines: I ingested the LSD first and only ingested the caapi as an afterthought and when it started to kick in and my visions started looking all gnarly, I was like, oh, no, I didn't want this!
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Some friends invited me to see a Lake Street Dive show in a city where everything is within walking distance, for the most part. Despite that, I ended up walking 7 miles that night because I was lost, and could not read Google Maps on my phone to get home. I had taken ~7 tabs I believe, given 3 to a friend, and I predosed 300mg of 2:1 harmaline:tetrahydroharmine. I predosed at my apartment, and took the acid at a pizza joint where we all met up. On the way from the apartment to the pizza place though, I impulsively popped 300mg of instant release bupropion since I was trying to rebuild my daily use of it, but I was forgetful towards its very real, and dangerous interactions with harmalas. I've never experienced nystagmus like that since, smoking NEP didn't even come close to this bullshit. The euphoria was unparalleled, lost in a sea of kaleodoscopic fractals, seeing fragments of my life replay in them like mosaics assembled from memories I forgot I had. Once I could read I was still relatively fucked up and made it home, only knowing the distance I walked because I had a tracker on my phone that mapped the entire trek.

My roommate at the time gave me a hug when I arrived home and he was repulsed by the fact that I was soaked, from head to toe, in sweat. I don't blame him, I would've been too. I hadn't been able to eat or drink for a long while either, and when my friends at the concert asked if I was sure I didn't want an Uber back I could barely even speak enough to communicate to them about what was going on. By time I got home though, it just felt like a really bizarre, "flatter" version of candyflipping, but in every way possible this combination felt dangerous, toxic, and not worth it, due to the bupropion specifically.
 
brokedownpalace10 said:
Interesting. Could you elaborate? What if one smoked Rue and then smoked Blue Lotus? What did you do?
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I was drinking caapi tea and then drinking high potency extracts of lotus in tea, and vaporizing it mixed in with cannabis hash too. Dabbing blue lotus extracts is a quick ticket to the flower zone. I laid back on my couch and it felt like I couldn't move my body even if my life depended on it, my eyes were stuck open but I could move them. I was transfixed on this infinitely re-opening flower on my living room ceiling that I was staring at. It felt alive, I believe it was trying to communicate something to me that I simply cannot comprehend for one reason or another. I have no idea if this is safe at all, but you should be able to drink or eat Rue and then eat or drink Lotus. Eating a good amount of high potency concentrate is what you're after, much like kanna, sinicuichi, or dagga, these plants are in the same stage of selective breeding that things like cannabis landraces are. An heirloom acapulco gold from 1978 is rough around the edges in the same way that the aforementioned plants are today. For really "in your face" effects, I've personally needed to use extracts ranging from 100x-500x, although there is a noticeable threshold with a small amount of the plants, and a good middle range still accessible from the plants themselves.
 
All right, this guy I mentioned yesterday has proven to be a hard-headed fucking idiot. I replied to his flat comment that 5-MeO-DMT is deadly in combo w/ an MAOI and it seemed like YouTube auto flagged the reply as spam, which it usually does for lengthy comments, so I made a video out of the reply and uploaded it and directed him to it and he basically repeated himelf, probably refused to watch the one minute video, and deleted my comments and possibly blocked me. The flagged comment and video contained quotes from Sasha Shulgin and another researcher that convey that the combo is safe with certain doses. And this guy's behavior is so surprising because he represents himself as an open-minded truth seeker with an interest in the occult. So, I would really appreciate it if I could get two people to post one of the aforementioned quotes on his channel (splitting them into two different posts from two different people to make sure they don't get flagged as spam). If you're willing to help me out, contact me first, I want to plan this so that both comments get posted at the same time.

He even called a commentor a "muggle": https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3...unity?lb=UgkxoSpLYzWmsq-jiuQDyDWerZpgkN-qvY7j

How ironic.
 
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Esperighanto said:
Any drug that isn't metabolized by (or also inhibits) monoamine oxidase would be fine. You can do however much ritalin you normally would for example while on MAOIs, since they're not metabolized by MAO. I suspect that the perceived potentiation of MAOIs on cannabis is not actually potentiation, but synergy.
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Methylphenidate only inhibits dopamine reuptake and therefore has no risk for hypertension when combined with MAOIs.

Meyer, J.M. Modern Use of MAOIs. Psychopharmacology Institute, 2019-07-01 05. Drug Interactions With MAOIs: Pressor Reactions From Other Medications


The prescriber’s guide to classic MAO inhibitors for treatment-resistant depression* lists methylphenidate under this section:

6.6 Safe to combine (although caution is advised because of possible potentiation of effect and side effect)


At the end of this documentary, Hamilton Morris takes a Ritalin on a low dose of ayahuasca:

Tripping on Hallucinogenic Frogs (Part 3/3). Hamilton's Pharmacopeia S1E3. Vice. Oct 19, 2012 (17:55)


They'll be fine regardless, it's good to give it the time necessary to break down in the body and be metabolized out, but with that said there's no negative interactions between Ritalin and Ayahuasca, in fact i myself have taken the combo (as well as using Isopropylphenidate instead of Methylphenidate), and Hamilton Morris also has taken the combination, and i've also had Mucuna L-Dopa in combination with Aya and Harmalas on their own, and there's been no issues noted.

Sabnock101, 2023-11-16, reddit


*The prescriber’s guide to classic MAO inhibitors (phenelzine, tranylcypromine, isocarboxazid) for treatment-resistant depression. Van den Eynde V, Abdelmoemin WR, Abraham MM, et al. CNS Spectrums. 2023;28(4):427-440. doi:10.1017/S1092852922000906
 
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No oral DMT for me. I went through like 10 grams of DMT and decided to pull the plug and take a break from that for awhile, but I went through almost all of that on harmalas. Phenelzine and vaped DMT was a tad different than harmalas and tbh I prefer how harmalas feel over phenelzine, harmalas seem to have a unique psychoactive property that mixes very well with DMT/mushrooms.

I took 20g of mushrooms with 60mg of phenelzine along with some absurd amount of LSD. I don't remember how much I took, its in my posts. I guess I'm that brain fried I can't remember. I'm high as fuck right now

I really like how 200mg of harmine and LSD feels, I think it has good synergy. It kinda has a nice relaxing component to it coming up. Very hard to describe, I am prone to getting anxiety on the comeup but that is pretty much nonexistant when I take a nice proper dose of harmine. It has a short half life so it's not exactly going through the whole trip unless you redose (which I have) and it mixes pretty well with my biochemistry for whatever reason.

Some people say it dulls the trip or whatever but I never noticed any dullness and visuals were still very much so apparent even when I took 100-150ug. Higher doses were more calm feeling to it. Not much to note for LSD and harmalas. You either like the feeling it gives or you don't. I've seen such mixed reports of people not enjoying the combo, it takes away from the LSD or adverse effects.

Personally I like it, but I'll also go out to say that it doesn't feel like a game changer for LSD.
I doin't think anyone is missing out by not trying it with LSD.

Mushrooms and DMT on the other hand, MAOI's REALLY change how the trip feels in a fundamental way to me. It's like adding peanut butter to your jelly sandwich and slapping a banana in there. It just feels right.
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TrancedOutBrah, 2025-04-17, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/29190411#29190411


Keywords: Nardil, irreversible MAOI, monoamine oxidase inhibitor
 
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