Lysergamides Using LSD as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

[emkee_reinvented]

Assuming the same response a even more relaxing Lysergic experience sounds good to me too.

Someone on here posted a detailed post about a DIY to make THH from probably Sirian Rue.
Which took the Harmaline to whole new level. I dont remember if it retained MAO activy,

have to do a search first. apperently not a MAOi, but its a intriging substance

https://www.bluelight.org/community...pi-visionary-feminine-teaching-spirit.933885/

 

[pupnik]

The pharmacodynamic profile of "Blackadder" blackcurrant juice effects upon the monoamine axis in humans: A randomised controlled trial - PubMed

Emerging evidence from human intervention trials indicates health benefits of consuming blackcurrant fruit, including improvements to cognitive performance, modulation of blood flow, regulation of blood glucose and inhibition of enzymes underpinning normal cognitive function. Of particular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

b maoi's are active in black currant (ribes nigrum) which is not showing up on those screen caps.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_monoamine_oxidase-B_in_healthy_young_adults,
I requested their info.

 

[Esperighanto]

The pharmacodynamic profile of "Blackadder" blackcurrant juice effects upon the monoamine axis in humans: A randomised controlled trial - PubMed

Emerging evidence from human intervention trials indicates health benefits of consuming blackcurrant fruit, including improvements to cognitive performance, modulation of blood flow, regulation of blood glucose and inhibition of enzymes underpinning normal cognitive function. Of particular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

b maoi's are active in black currant (ribes nigrum) which is not showing up on those screen caps.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_monoamine_oxidase-B_in_healthy_young_adults,
I requested their info.

I suspect there are many entheogens yet to be discovered in Polynesia, pukateine could probably serve as a fascinating basis for semisynthetic work imo.

Assuming the same response a even more relaxing Lysergic experience sounds good to me too.

Someone on here posted a detailed post about a DIY to make THH from probably Sirian Rue.
Which took the Harmaline to whole new level. I dont remember if it retained MAO activy,

have to do a search first. apperently not a MAOi, but its a intriging substance

https://www.bluelight.org/community...pi-visionary-feminine-teaching-spirit.933885/

I couldn't get 300mg of THH on its own to make DMT orally active personally, but adding even 20mg of harmaline to that much THH alongside Diplopterys cabrerana/Psychotria viridis tea made me feel like a goddamn lightning bolt. I didn't do that again.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I suspect there are many entheogens yet to be discovered in Polynesia, pukateine could probably serve as a fascinating basis for semisynthetic work imo.


I couldn't get 300mg of THH on its own to make DMT orally active personally, but adding even 20mg of harmaline to that much THH alongside Diplopterys cabrerana/Psychotria viridis tea made me feel like a goddamn lightning bolt. I didn't do that again.

THH does not work for oral activation of DMT.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I suspect there are many entheogens yet to be discovered in Polynesia, pukateine could probably serve as a fascinating basis for semisynthetic work imo.


I couldn't get 300mg of THH on its own to make DMT orally active personally, but adding even 20mg of harmaline to that much THH alongside Diplopterys cabrerana/Psychotria viridis tea made me feel like a goddamn lightning bolt. I didn't do that again.

THH does not work for oral activation of DMT.

Seems more like a drug on its one, just read through a post about natural occuring MAOi some A others B.
And there are lots of em. And THH does seem to have some of it, but probably a bit like aMT. Not enough.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Seems more like a drug on its one, just read through a post about natural occuring MAOi some A others B.
And there are lots of em. And THH does seem to have some of it, but probably a bit like aMT. Not enough.

I should backtrack a bit and say that it might work for oral DMT in huge doses. I feels like an antidepressant for lack of a better word. A happy stimulant?

 

[Esperighanto]

I should backtrack a bit and say that it might work for oral DMT in huge doses. I feels like an antidepressant for lack of a better word. A happy stimulant?

I didn't experience any stimulation from THH, it actually had that classic "harmala dreaminess" where it would put me in half-awake trances and shit. Where it and shined was in combination with serotonergics, it made them much less confusing and more clear headed while retaining the more profound or "mystical" elements of an LSD or psilocybin trip, for example. With ayahuasca and pharmahuasca it has a similar effect.

In 2022 my local 4th of July fireworks were delayed until the 5th for weather reasons. About 5-6 friends including myself start walking to a large hill to watch the display in the city, maybe a mile away at most. 45 minutes before the estimated fireworks display I took 125mg of harmaline and 75mg of THH. The whole gang and I had been chiefing a DMT vape from an extraction I'd finished drying/recrystallizing within the last day, it was fresh as hell.

30 Minutes before the fireworks I ate 50mg of DMT, the 15 minutes later another 50mg. The fireworks were 15 minutes later than expected, and by time they came it presented one of the most overwhelmingly beautiful sights I've ever seen. The way that "the tunnel" manifests as a perfectly kaleidoscopic overlay on your vision when smoking DMT, the fireworks would act like stationary versions of that in the sky, in flux yet maintaining a position that moves only a little if any at all. The sound was so loud I could feel my bones shaking, reality was so much information all at once I could've been convinced I'd fallen into a world where the world was replaced with kaleidoscopic clouds, grass crawling with the colors handed down from the fireworks.

Holding my boyfriend's hand felt like being the same entity, but that happens a lot when tripping. What blew me away was that on top of a large dose of pharmahuasca and consistently hitting a DMT pen, I was still completely lucid and could function in public and hold conversations and shit with no problem. The same dose without the THH has led to some much more confusing, cloudy "incidents" I'll say.

The walk home was intense, reality looked like a flipbook of neon sketchwork drawn to storyboard something with shading akin to Midnight Gospel. It felt like every person in the area (many thousands crammed shoulder to shoulder) and I were all the same entity, this oddly thorough state of ego death, yet with the THH I was totally functional, and probably wasn't visibly all that geeked tbh. I'd eaten a big ass slab of deep dish pizza too and had zero nausea, but this was during a period of my life where I was eating mushrooms like twice a week so my stomach was steeled to tryptamine nausea I suspect.

Sorry for the rant here, I just wanted to illustrate how THH has been a useful tool at least for me subjectively.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I should backtrack a bit and say that it might work for oral DMT in huge doses. I feels like an antidepressant for lack of a better word. A happy stimulant?

Well good to hear a second opinion on it, he/ she resembles it to Mescaline.

Don t even know if its worth the time lately, psychedelics in general.
certainly not experimenting with unkown substances. Did that with a Salvia extract once.

Lesson learned. Don t play around! With Phens or Tryps neither, don t like me, except 2C-T2

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I didn't experience any stimulation from THH, it actually had that classic "harmala dreaminess" where it would put me in half-awake trances and shit. Where it and shined was in combination with serotonergics, it made them much less confusing and more clear headed while retaining the more profound or "mystical" elements of an LSD or psilocybin trip, for example. With ayahuasca and pharmahuasca it has a similar effect.

In 2022 my local 4th of July fireworks were delayed until the 5th for weather reasons. About 5-6 friends including myself start walking to a large hill to watch the display in the city, maybe a mile away at most. 45 minutes before the estimated fireworks display I took 125mg of harmaline and 75mg of THH. The whole gang and I had been chiefing a DMT vape from an extraction I'd finished drying/recrystallizing within the last day, it was fresh as hell.

30 Minutes before the fireworks I ate 50mg of DMT, the 15 minutes later another 50mg. The fireworks were 15 minutes later than expected, and by time they came it presented one of the most overwhelmingly beautiful sights I've ever seen. The way that "the tunnel" manifests as a perfectly kaleidoscopic overlay on your vision when smoking DMT, the fireworks would act like stationary versions of that in the sky, in flux yet maintaining a position that moves only a little if any at all. The sound was so loud I could feel my bones shaking, reality was so much information all at once I could've been convinced I'd fallen into a world where the world was replaced with kaleidoscopic clouds, grass crawling with the colors handed down from the fireworks.

Holding my boyfriend's hand felt like being the same entity, but that happens a lot when tripping. What blew me away was that on top of a large dose of pharmahuasca and consistently hitting a DMT pen, I was still completely lucid and could function in public and hold conversations and shit with no problem. The same dose without the THH has led to some much more confusing, cloudy "incidents" I'll say.

The walk home was intense, reality looked like a flipbook of neon sketchwork drawn to storyboard something with shading akin to Midnight Gospel. It felt like every person in the area (many thousands crammed shoulder to shoulder) and I were all the same entity, this oddly thorough state of ego death, yet with the THH I was totally functional, and probably wasn't visibly all that geeked tbh. I'd eaten a big ass slab of deep dish pizza too and had zero nausea, but this was during a period of my life where I was eating mushrooms like twice a week so my stomach was steeled to tryptamine nausea I suspect.

Sorry for the rant here, I just wanted to illustrate how THH has been a useful tool at least for me subjectively.

Yeah. The words I threw at it weren't the best on this one. (I think I have Covid) Your description was pretty good. Good that you mentioned "clarity" a couple times.
I've had it, Caapi and Rue smoked ahead of smoked DMT. I like that THH doesn't have that Harmaline(?) "cloudiness". Definitely made the experience more clear and up. Rue feels masculine and Caapi feminine.

 

[red22]

THH does not work for oral activation of DMT.

Indeed, data shows that THH's MAOI action is multitudes weaker than harmine's and harmaline's (the predominant MAOIs in caapi and rue).

These are the IC50 values for the three chemicals from a recent study:

THH: 1.52
harmine: 0.06
harmaline: 0.09

Identification of harmine and β-carboline analogs from a high-throughput screen of an approved drug collection; profiling as differential inhibitors of DYRK1A and monoamine oxidase A and for in vitro and in vivo anti-cancer studies. Tarpley, M., Oladapo, H. O., Strepay, D., Caligan, T. B., Chdid, L., Shehata, H., … Williams, K. P. (2021). European Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, 162, 105821. doi: 10.1016/j.ejps.2021.105821

See table 2 on page 5.


This study also published ranges for harmine and harmaline based on the 12 studies in the below quote box:

harmine: 0.003-0.107
harmaline: 0.005-0.020

Bálint, B., Wéber, C., Cruzalegui, F., Burbridge, M., Kotschy, A., 2017. Structure-Based Design and Synthesis of Harmine Derivatives with Different Selectivity Profiles in Kinase versus Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition. ChemMedChem 12, 932–939.

Clarke, S.E.D., Ramsay, R.R., 2011. Dietary inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A. Journal of Neural Transmission 118, 1031–1041.

Herraiz, T., Brandt, S.D., 2014. 5-(2-Aminopropyl) indole (5-IT): a psychoactive substance used for recreational purposes is an inhibitor of human monoamine oxidase (MAO). Drug testing and analysis 6, 607–613.

Herraiz, T., Chaparro, C., 2005. Human monoamine oxidase is inhibited by tobacco smoke: β-carboline alkaloids act as potent and reversible inhibitors. Biochemical and biophysical research communications 326, 378–386.

Ionescu, A., Dufrasne, F., Gelbcke, M., Jabin, I., Kiss, R., Lamoral-Theys, D., 2012. DYRK1A kinase inhibitors with emphasis on cancer. Mini reviews in medicinal chemistry 12, 1315–1329.

Kim, H., Sablin, S.O., Ramsay, R.R., 1997. Inhibition of monoamine oxidase A by betacarboline derivatives. Arch Biochem Biophys 337, 137–142.

Rahman, T., Rahmatullah, M., 2010. Proposed structural basis of interaction of piperine and related compounds with monoamine oxidases. Bioorganic & medicinal chemistry letters 20, 537–540.

Reniers, J., Robert, S., Frederick, R., Masereel, B., Vincent, S., Wouters, J., 2011. Synthesis and evaluation of β-carboline derivatives as potential monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Bioorganic & medicinal chemistry 19, 134–144.

Rommelspacher, H., May, T., Salewski, B., 1994. Harman (1-methyl-β-carboline) is a natural inhibitor of monoamine oxidase type A in rats. European journal of pharmacology 252, 51–59.

Rüben, K., Wurzlbauer, A., Walte, A., Sippl, W., Bracher, F., Becker, W., 2015. Selectivity profiling and biological activity of novel β-carbolines as potent and selective DYRK1 kinase inhibitors. PloS one 10, e0132453.

Santillo, M.F., Liu, Y., Ferguson, M., Vohra, S.N., Wiesenfeld, P.L., 2014. Inhibition of monoamine oxidase (MAO) by β-carbolines and their interactions in live neuronal (PC12) and liver (HuH-7 and MH1C1) cells. Toxicology in Vitro 28, 403–410.

Wurzlbauer, A., Rüben, K., Gürdal, E., Chaikuad, A., Knapp, S., Sippl, W., Becker, W., Bracher, F., 2020. How to Separate Kinase Inhibition from Undesired Monoamine Oxidase A Inhibition—The Development of the DYRK1A Inhibitor AnnH75 from the Alkaloid Harmine. Molecules 25, 5962.

McKenna, et. al. hypothesize that THH is a weak serotonin reuptake inhibitor:

While not a strong inhibitor of MAO, THH possibly contributes neuroactivity by weakly inhibiting the uptake of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT) at presynaptic sites, like other 1-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carbolines (Airaksinen et al., 1980). Subsequently, concentrations of 5-HT increase in the body when both its metabolism by MAOA and presynaptic uptake are simultaneously blocked by these harmala alkaloids.

Airaksinen, M.M., Svensk, H., Tuomisto, J., Komulainen, H., 1980. Tetrahydro-b-carbolines and corresponding tryptamines: in vivo inhibition of serotonin and dopamine uptake by human blood platelets. Acta Pharmacologia et Toxicologia 46, 308–313.

Pharmacokinetics of Hoasca alkaloids in healthy humans. J.C Callaway, D.J McKenna, C.S Grob, G.S Brito, L.P Raymon, R.E Poland, E.N Andrade, E.O Andrade, D.C Mash. Jun 1999. Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 65(3), 243–256. DOI: 10.1016/S0378-8741(98)00168-8 (1. Introduction)


Indeed, someone said "Honestly to me it just felt like a Serotonin reuptake inhibitor, i can definitely feel the increase in Serotonin from it, it reminds me of the SSRI's i used to be on as a teen, also reminds me of 5-HTP a good bit."

Sabnock101, Feb 14, 2024, https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/comments/12o1e07/comment/kqgkhjh/

I should backtrack a bit and say that it might work for oral DMT in huge doses. I feels like an antidepressant for lack of a better word. A happy stimulant?

For what it's worth, Primary-Progress7605 on reddit told me that he's used THH to activate oral DMT. I'm open to what he says because moclobemide is also multitudes weaker than harm(al)ine and we know that it works for oral DMT.

Indeed, I just found something that conveys that in vitro IC50 values don't tell us everything we need to know about MAOI capability. Indeed, I came across another study that says that moclobemide's IC50 is almost equal to cocaine's and greater than fluoxetine, citalopram, and tianeptine's (again, greater means weaker) (see below).

This study presents additional information to consider in understanding the relation between affinity and occupancy among antidepressants. In considering the SSRI alone, whereas there was no relation between affinity (which varied 100-fold) and occupancy, there was a common property among frequently prescribed SSRIs: they were about 10-fold greater or less than nanomolar affinity. This suggests that nanomolar affinity is related to substantial occupancy. The occupancy of bupropion seemed consistent with this perspective, as bupropion has near micromolar affinity (Ki = 630 nM) and minimal to nondetectable occupancy.^12,51 Given these results, it may have been expected that neither St. John’s wort (which contains substances that have micromolar to millimolar IC50 levels) nor moclobemide (micromolar IC50 in vitro) should have substantial occupancy. The present study demonstrates that an antidepressant, moclobemide, with modest affinity for its primary target still has high occupancy in vivo in humans. Whereas in vitro affinity and IC50 inhibitory values are important for characterizing novel antidepressants, in vivo occupancy results clearly add information not otherwise obtainable in humans.⁵²

Monoamine oxidase A inhibitor occupancy during treatment of major depressive episodes with moclobemide or St. John's wort: an [11C]-harmine PET study. Sacher J, Houle S, Parkes J, Rusjan P, Sagrati S, Wilson AA, Meyer JH. J Psychiatry Neurosci. 2011 Nov;36(6):375-82. doi: 10.1503/jpn.100117 (Discussion)

Interestingly, this study used radiolabeled harmine for their procedure, even though they didn't study it (see the 'Data analysis' section for more info).

The one that mentions cocaine. See table 1 on page 650.

Inhibition of monoamine oxidase activity by antidepressants and mood stabilizers. Fisar Z, Hroudová J, Raboch J. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2010;31(5):645-56. PMID: 21200377

I didn't experience any stimulation from THH, it actually had that classic "harmala dreaminess" where it would put me in half-awake trances and shit.

In one person tetrahydroharmine was similarly hallucinogenic when given in three times the dose of harmaline.

β-carbolines, psychoactive compounds in the mammalian body. Airaksinen MM, Kari I. Part II: Effects. Med Biol. 59(4):190-211. 1981 (Studies on the hallucinogenic and other CNS effects)

See this page for the full article. Part 1 is also on this page: https://samorini.it/documentazione/biblioteca/argomento/substances/beta-carbolines/

 

[red22]

Beta-Carboline Potentiation of LSD

We have also experimented with potentiation of LSD by beta-carboline containing plants. Generically, the effects follow the same patterns. Subjectively, the dose feels three to four times more potent than it actually is. The closed eye imagery is greatly enhanced with circular highly detailed bright imagery visible on only 25 micrograms. On higher doses (150-200 micrograms) there was a feeling of an ancestral presence (we have never felt an outside presence on LSD alone in over several hundred acid trips but we have found it quite common when LSD is combined with another psychedelic).

The closed-eye patterns were “almost visions”. That is to say they were clearer than hypnagogic imagery but not as overwhelming or clear as DMT visions. The visuals were more like clear dream imagery. The mood elevation was quite astounding. At one point one of us shouted “You couldn’t possibly have a bad trip on this stuff.” There were no mood swings and the buoyant elation slowly receded to baseline over the course of the trip.

Notes from Underground: A “Gracie and Zarkov” Reader, vol. II. Gracie and Zarkov Productions, 1985 (Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants as Potentiators of Synthetic DMT and Other Indole Psychedelics (#7))

See this page for the PDF: Erowid Gracie and Zarkov Vault

Note that the original version of this article said 25-50 mcg. This was changed in a revised version that is seen under 'Some Excerpted Individual Notes'. "B-Carboline" was changed to "Beta-Carboline" too.

 

[red22]

for me harmalas make LSD likeable. LSD by itself for me gives way too much anxiety, even in micro amounts. but as they do for everything else with me, harmalas makes LSD warm and peaceful but then also has the focus & creativity that comes to most LSD users.

tbh I will not use anything psychedelics wise again without harmalas as a base. of course this means no MDMA nor 5meo for me anymore, but I'm more than fine with those being gone. harmalas for me are what work so well and there's no reason to deviate any further from them.

adenovirusss, Dec 18, 2024, reddit

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Rhodiola rosea MAO-b 5.4, was that the reason my GF loved it.
And i, prescribed d-Amphetamine disliked it, seemed to interact.

MAO-b [acc WIKI] contradictory inhibits Dopamin and PEA.
Ime s bad interaction, same with st. Johns Worth and Methylphenidate.
Though Passiflora Incarnata, the so called MAO,
never interacted with a substance as far as i felt, certainly not in a bad way.

Nor enhanced it, or potentiated.

 

[red22]

Though Passiflora Incarnata, the so called MAO,
never interacted with a substance as far as i felt, certainly not in a bad way.

Nor enhanced it, or potentiated.

notice: passion flower only contains trace amounts of ‘harmalas’

 

[Ismene2]

I did eventually try LSD and moclobemide but didnt notice any effect. Only tried it once tho.

Vaping DMT on LSD is nice.

 

[JackARoe]

for me harmalas make LSD likeable. LSD by itself for me gives way too much anxiety, even in micro amounts. but as they do for everything else with me, harmalas makes LSD warm and peaceful but then also has the focus & creativity that comes to most LSD users

I have smoked harmala a few times on LSD and there is a nice peaceful effect.

I really think LSD being unleashed in open society was as important as ayahuasca. In fact stronger and no Shaman needed. The whole shaman thing has been warped. Shamanism was about healing, not giving people psychedelics. But as I said in another thread give a genuine South American shaman LSD instead of ayahuasca. I am sure a mind would be as blown if not more.

 

[Ismene2]

I have smoked harmala a few times on LSD and there is a nice peaceful effect.

I really think LSD being unleashed in open society was as important as ayahuasca. In fact stronger and no Shaman needed. The whole shaman thing has been warped. Shamanism was about healing, not giving people psychedelics. But as I said in another thread give a genuine South American shaman LSD instead of ayahuasca. I am sure a mind would be as blown if not more.

Joey Diaz said "Fuck ayahuasca - you take acid and put black sabbath on and you will find the answers you seek"

 

[brokedownpalace10]

It's all about intent. Have an LSD ceremony with fasting, intent and seeking healing and you will have a different experience than if you go hang gliding.

I also have the cockamamie theory that psychedelics can develop a "gestalt" of all the experiences ever on them. Acid might have more bad trips because more people have taken it irresponsibly over the years and had bad trips. Yadda.
But, ne'mind.

 

[JackARoe]

Joey Diaz said "Fuck ayahuasca - you take acid and put black sabbath on and you will find the answers you seek"

LOL I believe it. All one has to do is listen to Master of Reality and they will get wise. I loved Black Sabbath in the 70s. That album gave me more wisdom than any church ever could.

“ tell me people am I going insane…”

 

[Ismene2]

LOL I believe it. All one has to do is listen to Master of Reality and they will get wise. I loved Black Sabbath in the 70s. That album gave me more wisdom than any church ever could.

“ tell me people am I going insane…”

I always liked After Forever - I used to have it blasting on the walkman when I was walking to school - when I walked past the church I felt like shaking my fist at it

"Would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope.."

Henry Rollins said "Who can you trust but yourself and the first five black sabbath albums"