Opioids Using kratom during suboxone WD

[shootingmyself]

I've been on suboxone for a year now and it got too cost prohibitive so I managed to get down to 2mg then jump off. I went through what I would call minor WDs, eased in my belief by neurontin and celexa.

I had made it through day 6 when I was bitching to my GF about WDs and she made a joke about getting kratom. I had heard of, but never tried kratom before, and I got it into my head to 'use it to ease my WDs'. I found some locally, tried it and totally loved it. I guess my tolerance was low enough off the opiates that I got the full effects. I've used it twice a day now for the last 3-4days. I took a higher than usual dose this morning, felt great, then ended up sleeping most the day. When I woke up it felt like I was experiencing minor WD anxiety. Granted I'm on day 10 of no suboxone so it could be from that.

What I'm wondering is if anyone has any experience using kratom to come off suboxone. I am also wondering if there is a cross-dependence, where using kratom for a short period of time would cause me to become addicted faster than usual. I don't want to be off suboxone for 2 weeks, then try to quit kratom after only taking for a short period of time, to find full WDs are back. If anyone can educate me on this subject I'd really appreciate it.

 

[SkagKush]

kratom is good for coming off all opiates or opiods

and there is a cross tolerance yes.....

 

[Cane2theLeft]

There is some cross-tolerance, but kratom doesn't produce nearly the extent of physical dependence that other opioids cause.

As most around here probably would've suggested, you would've been better off had you tapered below 2mg of buprenorphine before jumping off because that is still a rather large dose relative to full agonists.

If the kratom helps then use it but BE CAREFUL. If you like it too much, you're just going to start escalating your doses and likely wind up back where you started. If you want to use kratom, then I'd say use the minimum and keep tapering regularly to ease the transition.

 

[SkagKush]

exactly that....... couldn't have said it better myself..............

 

[shootingmyself]

I guess I'm wondering about how the cross-tolerance works and what I'm in store for. I imagine since I'm still on around day 8 of my WD from suboxone I'd still have some symptoms that the kratom is helping with. I definitely like it. Does my body no longer think I'm WDing from the suboxone? If I stop taking the kratom will my WD start over like when I first get off suboxone or will it be lessened.

Sorry if this is inarticulate, but if anyone is able to go in depth about how these two drugs are affecting my brain and how the cross-tolerance works I'd really appreciate it. Also if anyone has any experience in this issue that'd be great.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^its difficult to answer your questions with any precision because there are so many variables involved.

Kratom works on opioid receptors but has a MUCH weaker affinity for them than buprenorphine, its also a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor so this explains some of the mood lift aside from opioidergic effects and why it has stimulant properties (especially at lower doses where there are weaker opioid effects).

Whether you will w/d after stopping the kratom really depends on how high of a dose and how long you stayed on it, but I am confident in saying your bupe withdrawals will not start over once you stop the kratom... as mentioned above, the kratom just doesn't have the binding affinity that buprenorphine has so at worst you'll be withdrawing from the much milder kratom.

 

[Pegasus]

Yeah, I have done this two or three times in my life, depending on how you count. I'm actually currently roughly two weeks without bupe, taking only kratom in its place.

If you dose once or twice daily, you likely won't have too much of an issue with withdrawal due to the short duration. I try to dose twice a day only, the drawback being that I wake up in withdrawal every morning. Three times a day is what it takes for me to not have the night w/d symptoms but I have found that this builds tolerance very rapidly and I would guess dependence would occur. Dosing twice or less daily though, I have gone a month or longer and not had any w/d symptoms when I quit. Everyone's different obviously, but I think that if you just stick to kratom leaf and don't get the extracts or tinctures and don't dose too often (three or more times a day), you shouldn't have too much of a problem on your hands when you decide to stop.

 

[SkagKush]

word cane

 

[shootingmyself]

Thanks BLers

I try to dose twice a day only, the drawback being that I wake up in withdrawal every morning.

I'm a little confused Pegasus. Are you still waking up in WD from suboxone or from the kratom? When you have tried it in the past how were the kratom WDs after getting over the suboxone WDs?

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Drug testing discussion isn't permitted.

I can't speak for pegasus, but I'd say he really isn't withdrawing from either suboxone or kratom but opioids. He has become dependent on opioids and any opioid will satiate that dependence. Kratom and bupe both work primarily on the same receptors, although in different ways with very different binding affinities.

 

[duneplanet]

so im a littel confused. idk if this willh elp the TC. ive been on bupe now and if i were to stop and say take kratoim once a day for amonth to sleep when I quit would i just be withdrawing from kratom? what confuses me is I assumed another opioid would just prolong withdrawal.

 

[Nib]

I used Kratom to get off Suboxone and now I'm addicted to Kratom again(past addiction). I would say I was addicted to it pretty much right when I made the switch.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I've been reading these threads for an hour now but I just don't see anyone who seems to have the severe WD symptoms that I do. let me explain...in 2003 I began to consume opium pods daily and estimate I was consuming nearly 500mg opium alkaloids daily at the height of my depravity. Needless to say, I had very serious habit and I tried to quit many times over the next 3 years (longest I went was 4 months and I still had withdrawal symptoms...sure they got better but only so better. My symptoms beyond never ending cravings and obsession over opiates were severe restlessness and RLS (that did not exist before I got into pods) and general shitty feeling that was intense enough 4 months later that I said 'fuck this' and went back to pods. Only when it became impossible to get pods did I seek medical help, eventually got on 36mg of suboxone that I gradually weaned down to 8mg/day. 8mg/day was enough to still make me have BAD withdrawal and the last time I tried to quit suboxone (when I could no longer afford it), I went 6 weeks and just wasn't getting better, said 'fuck this' and ordered kratom.

Now I am stuck on thsi misrable kratom that only lasts 4-5 hr before WD comes back. It is severe enough that it wakes me up. I have never tried to quit kratom as I have been in a situation were I simply can't be bedridden, but this kratom addiction is the worst of all because it is so fucking short, I am always either sick, or just above not sick, but fighting sick. I do not take more than 1 Tablespoon at a time because if I consume more, I puke for hours....but now than 6 months have passed it seems like the kratom does less and less and I spend more and more time just feeling horrible.

I know no one can predict what the fuck is up with me, but how long would someone guess in my condition it would take to get past kratom WD? I may have the chance to stop working through June, and I am more than ready to stop this lifestyle. All of the reasons I used to justify opiate addiction are no longer relevant. Now it is just an expensive habit that I spend as much time being sick from as I do feeling better....but going back on suboxone seems counter productive....I want out.

Any advice? Please don't tell me to search engine, I have, and I am hoping that someone will just take the time to share their experiences with me. God knows I've spent years writing my experiences to you. Why does withdrawal last so long for me? I mean 4 months and only partial relief. I cannot fathom going that long again. I cry like a woman at the mess I am in, almost 10 years addicted to opiates. I've lost two loves, friends, nearly lost a roof over my head. Its really bad.