Universe being aware of itself

[vegan]

Yes but wouldn't you agree that it's just a human device, a form of measurement to create an order we all need to abide by to function (as humans), as opposed to living in the constant flux of existence?

the "measurement of time" and time itself are totally independent
time itself has nothing to do with humans or any living creatures

but that should be kept for a thread on the nature of time (if we want to keep it on topic here )

to quickly give my view, i think that time can exist not only independently from life, but from moving matter and even just matter itself

I'm just a sincere believer in the notion that their was no beginning, their will be no end, their just is.

What are your thoughts on this?

i'm convinced that there was a beginning to this universe. mainly because of insights i had on psychedelics
i'm also convinced that time and space appeared at the birth of this universe

was it the beginning of everything, or only of this universe, while there was something else "before", i'm not as certain
did time and/or space or something else exist outside of this universe? i have thoughts about this, but not a real opinion

as for the end, i'm open to all options
i can just as well consider the concept of a never ending universe as that of a universe that will one day stop, as in "space and time will stop existing"

for those who say that we/mankind/the universe is spiritually awakening, that implies a quantitative argument: we're somehow more spiritual than we used to be?

how does one measure spirituality? what does it even mean to be more spiritual?

why would you have to measure it?

if i walk, you can say if i came closer to you, stayed just as far or went further from you without needing to give a measure of the difference


humans evolve from some kind of ape that got lucky
go back a little further and you only find life in water (the same life that will evolve into all the current animals)
go back further and you probably only find sponge-like animals
then eukaryotes
then prokaryotes

i doubt anyone will argue that you need a quantitative argument to propose that humans are more spiritual than prokaryotes

it's an "illusion" to consider humans as they are today independently from their evolution
all animals have kept and will keep evolving
there was not one day on which we became humans and since when our dna hasn't changed

humans today are the descendents of less developped animals before

so except for those who think that some god put adam and eve on earth, it's obvious that life (humans included) has evolved both physically, and spiritually

 

[alasdairm]

why would you have to measure it?

if i walk, you can say if i came closer to you, stayed just as far or went further from you without needing to give a measure of the difference

in that example, neither of us know an exact measure of the differential but we both undoubtedly measured the before and after states - visually and not particularly accurately - and know that one is bigger/smaller than the other.

if you're arguing that something is greater than it was before, then there has to be some kind of measure otherwise you can't make the argument that there has been any change at all.

if your statement is: we're more spiritual now. what does it even mean to be more spiritual?

for me "it's obvious" doesn't cut it as an answer

alasdair

 

[swilow]

what does it even mean to be more spiritual

Less focus on materials and more intent on the inner world of the self. Even a radio wave is, in essence, in the material domain. At least, it manifests in the material domain; if it didn't we would most likely be unaware of it. But yeah, I don't believe the world is becoming more spiritual, maybe more diverse in spirituality, but not more inwards-looking. That said, we could be wrong and life simply is more spiritual, but because it simply is, we don;t know better. Great huh?

 

[swilow]

universe....no
DNA yes. I believe DNA is a higher being than us humans. It has the ability to pass down collective memories through neural DNA. It is DNA becoming ever more complex as novelity in the unviverse is constantly on the rise. Perhaps DNA uses all living animals to experience different "realities/perspectives", and further its knowlage of understanding, by having us do all the work.

Im not saying DNA is bad, in fact maybee we will achieve unity with it and master space and time. by using other organisms to do all the computations for us. appearently we can manipulate DNA to create flys with legs where their wings should be. DNA may not have been aware of this abitlty, until we discovered it.
rambling, forgot where Im even going with this.

So DNA is self-aware....? Humans pass down memories, through song, art, dance, storytelling. Very very complete memories too. We are created by our DNA, but without us, the DNA is neither here nor there, like a telephone with no-one to ever answer it ie. useless.

Anyway, what do you mean by novelty increasing? What s novelty? How do you measure it, what did it used to be and, finally, why are you regurgitating Terence McKennas mathematically disporven ideas as your own?

 

[endlesseulogy]

I think psychedelic drugs are our sacred tool to unearthing the great
primordial secrets of the universe.

I agree that psychedelics enable us to reach lofty hights of conciousness, but if they were the sacred (implying that they were created by god) tool to unearthing secrets about the universe, why are they not palitable to certain people, and why do species of organic psychedelics have such a long natural history on the planet, before the arrival of humans?

I think that we are on the verge of a spiritual awakening, it is evident everywhere.

Where is Everywhere? Keep in mind that the majority of the world's population lives outside the guise of the popular press and culture, meaning we would have no way in measuring the amplitude of "spritual awakening". Additionally, every generation through time and space sees it's as significant in some way in comparison to previous generations. I'm sure the moorish invasion of Spain and the Conquistadors of Latin America saw themselves in a time of great upheval.

Religion is prominent anywhere in the world, all seven billion of us are mystified at how we truly got here, one day we existed, and our consciousness evolved from there.

Is religion everywhere? Also, how do you know "all seven billion" of us are mystified? Most people I know or know through other people couldn't give a toss and are too busy engorged in their self-absorbed lives to care.

Do you think the universe is slowly becoming aware of itself?
Are drugs a tool put here by some sort of divinity?
Is humanity spiritually awakening?

The universe is beyond our concepts of awareness. This is an extremely "species-centric" view as you must keep in mind that the earth (and possibly the universe) is littered with life that may have no concept of "awareness". Maybe "awareness" is something our middle-world brains only conceptualize.

 

[spaceyourbass]

I would say bluelight's members as being a huge indicator that people are awakening and realizing the true nature of mind and awakening to the fact that we are all one interconnected web of consciousness.

Why are you so sure of this? Are you sure that we are not all organisms competing for energy (food) and water? I think that we all have a very seperate and unique consciousness. If I misunderstood your statement, please don't get mad at me, but please do elaborate.


As for the original post, you must remember that there are many religions that use drugs to discover universal truth-type things. I think that many people, religious or not, don't use drugs because they might be bad for the body. I also feel that many religions are a lot about family gathering and being social, as is with small Christian communities.

-------
This thread reminds me of the theory that the universe evolved organisms with consciousness (humans and other humanoids that couldn't compete with humans and died out) so that the conscious beings would one day help save the universe, as opposed to hurt it with global warming/cutting down rainforests, etc. Then again, the universe is going to exist even if our sun dies tomorrow.
-------

I also hold the belief that discovering universal truths does not change the universe, only the individual that discovers them. Therefore, discovering these things is for selfish desire - though not bad or wrong by any means. The truths help the individual, not the universe.


There will never be total peace on earth until every single person is well-fed and has a comfortable place to sleep at night. Obviously there are tons of other factors that would contribute to this peace, like being able to believe whatever you want without persecution...whether one believes that God's son was sent to earth 2000 years ago to save mankind (quite silly IMO) or not

 

[vegan]

if you're arguing that something is greater than it was before, then there has to be some kind of measure otherwise you can't make the argument that there has been any change at all.

is a human more spiritual than a prokaryote?
yes / no

if you answered yes, what measure did you use to answer?
if you answered no... err did you really mean it?


(i wouldn't use the word 'greater' here as it carries a notion of quality rather than quantity, that could be argued against)

in that example, neither of us know an exact measure of the differential but we both undoubtedly measured the before and after states - visually and not particularly accurately - and know that one is bigger/smaller than the other.

we can do the same with human spirituality

you don't have to go back in time and be there to compare, but just to look at other species today

several others species are representative of what level of spirituality humans must have had before

if you want to compare with a state very far back, look at bacteria

if you want to compare with a recent state, look at other apes



as for the future state of spirituality :

- that there is no a priori reason for something that has been evolving all along the history of the universe to suddenly stop because we're having this conversation

humans are not in a stable state that has stayed and will stay the same for a while

the time at which we exist is special in that many things are at the turning point of their exponential evolution
but it is not special as in "we have reached a certain plateau that we can analyse independently from the rest of evolution"

- personal experiences of spiritual awakening abond today

it may only be due to the evolution of comunication (ie there were as many before, but we were not aware of them because of lesser communication)

but i think that rather, the evolution of communication allows for awarness and spirituality to evolve

just to take the examples of the many people who testify here of having felt they were the universe on psychedelic drugs
many of them took those drugs after reading information on the internet

many of them would probably have followed their own way to spirituality without drugs, but i doubt that many of them would have tried the 20 or so years of meditation that you may need to reach the realizations to which ayahuasca can bring you in 2 hours

- spirituality at least partly relies on thinking, analizing, etc.
as far as we know those come mainly from the brain
the human brain is in constant evolution
so it's logical to suggest that what it creates will evolve consequently

 

[swilow]

Conciousness=spirituality? or vice versa?

 

[alasdairm]

is a human more spiritual than a prokaryote?
yes / no

if you answered yes, what measure did you use to answer?
if you answered no... err did you really mean it?

you've made your mind up already so there's no real value to my answering the question.

my answer to this question would not be yes but there's little point expanding on that as you've already started mocking my answer

i've asked a couple of times but you've missed it or ignored it: what does it mean to be more spiritual?

alasdair

 

[ControlDenied]

I'm not sure if it means anything, really. people have been telling themselves that "the world is awakening" for a long time, look at theosophy and all that crazy crap. who knows what the ancients were experiencing. all we can know is that we are in this world and this is how it is. so shut up and eat your greens.

its just that there are more people now and more advanced technology. so that means, for example, more people taking mind-opening drugs and talking to each other about it. it doesn't mean that buildings, trees, and nimbus clouds will start talking to each other.

 

[stonerfromohio]

I'm not sure if it means anything, really. people have been telling themselves that "the world is awakening" for a long time, look at theosophy and all that crazy crap. who knows what the ancients were experiencing. all we can know is that we are in this world and this is how it is. so shut up and eat your greens.

its just that there are more people now and more advanced technology. so that means, for example, more people taking mind-opening drugs and talking to each other about it. it doesn't mean that buildings, trees, and nimbus clouds will start talking to each other.

I love my greens but id rather not shut-up and keep trying to generate discussion I know this is our world and this is how it is but that doesnt stop me from questioning, analyzing and trying to make it better.

I think that communication certainly allows for evolution of the mind, the internet connects the world so that ideas can be tossed around, added onto and evolved. And psychadelic use has been prominent since the 60's but I think with the internet we have a place to discuss them and analyze them. I never claimed that clouds or trees talk to eachother but I dont think that trees being somewhat conscious entities is really that out of the question.

What is novelty? My definition would be manifestations of originality a new piece of the infinity that manifested into the physical world.. at least in the context I used in my quick freewrite.

I made some mass generalizations for the sake of optimism though considering them possible during the intoxicated free-write after reading some intense ayahuasca reports that certainly influenced the theme of the writing.

 

[vegan]

you've made your mind up already so there's no real value to my answering the question.

my answer to this question would not be yes but there's little point expanding on that as you've already started mocking my answer

i've asked a couple of times but you've missed it or ignored it: what does it mean to be more spiritual?

it's not very nifty not to answer my question and then tell me i'm avoiding yours in the same post

anyway, to clear things up : i don't ignore questions that are addressed to me. ever (except in situations such as obvious trolling)

i just honestly missed it (you asked me once. the other time was not directed to anyone in particular, and i limit my time on BL so i often don't/can't read all the posts)

i've been kind of tricked into using the word "spiritual" in this thread as others use it, but in any other post on this subject in other threads, you can check that i speak about awareness and not spirituality (as a bigot can pretend to be spiritual without actually being aware)

so i allowed a short-cut between spirituality and awareness while i shouldn't have

the point i'm interested in defending is that the universe is becoming more aware of itself, through its components, such as us

spirituality is a consequence of awareness, but i'll let someone who cares more about it answer instead


as several others here, we haven't felt the need to define awareness because we've felt it, and that we've felt it in a way that went passed the capacities of definition of our language

our language is still evolving too
10 000 years ago, you couldn't use our language to describe many concepts that are common today
100 000 ago, you probably couldn't even describe a basic feeling such as love with words

well, today, it's quite hard to describe the kind of awareness that several of us are talking about

one way to see it is that the more you include inside the "I", the more aware you are of the universe

a cell probably isn't conscious of it own existence
a cat is conscious of its existence but unable to reflect on it
some humans are only aware of their own desires
other humans have a lot of empathy for others and are more aware of belonging to a group
other humans care a lot about the environment and are then more aware of being part of an ecosystem
and so on...
then, other people have experienced universal consiousness and are aware that they are not entities independent from anything else in the universe. they are aware of being a part of the whole, not an element from a group of elements

a parallel way to look at awareness is through consciousness
are you conscious of being?
are you conscious of being thinking?
are you thinking about being?
are you thinking about consciousness?
are you conscious of being a human?
are you conscious of being sharing the same consciousness with other humans?
are you conscious that all humans share the same consciousness?
are you conscious that all animals share the same consciousness?
are you conscious that all living beings share the same consciousness?
are you conscious that all matter share the same consciousness?
are you conscious that maybe everything, even "empty space" shares the same consciousness?


so to go back to the problem of measurement
we don't need a quantitative measurement
only a comparative measurement

and to go back to the question "is a human more spiritual than a prokaryote?"

the way i formulated my post shows that i was expecting a "yes, and i didn't need a quantitative measurement to answer"

but you're wrong if you think i was mocking a possible no
i'm just genuinely surprised and interested in the answer

i've only made up my mind until someone else comes with another interesting argument

if you explain why you think that a human is not more spiritual than a prokaryote, i'll be the first happy to learn something

I'm not sure if it means anything, really. people have been telling themselves that "the world is awakening" for a long time

what is a long time for you?
a 100 years?
a 1000 years?
50 000 years?
how much is that compared to the 14 000 000 000 years of the universe?
pretty much nothing

and as a matter of fact, at any time during those 14 or so billion years, it would have been right to say "the world is awakening" as it's been continuously awakening since it's birth (adjust the age if you mean the "world=the earth" rather than "the universe")

it doesn't mean that buildings, trees, and nimbus clouds will start talking to each other.

i don't know if it will happen

but i'm quite sure that with the same reasoning, 100 000 years ago you would have said "there's not way that those big monkeys will one day be discussing spirituality on their laptop through a wireless internet connection"

 

[Thou]

i'm convinced that there was a beginning to this universe. mainly because of insights i had on psychedelics

I share an opposite view, based on what I've seen on psychedelics.

what is a long time for you?
a 100 years?
a 1000 years?
50 000 years?
how much is that compared to the 14 000 000 000 years of the universe?
pretty much nothing

I highly doubt we as a species are smart enough to accurately say with conviction how old any of this is, it's all speculation (although intelligent speculation based on scientific research). We're nothing, we're a speck of dust in an endless ocean larger than our percieved size of this "universe."

I do believe, endless or not, that the universe is indeed a sentient entity whom we're all connected with.

 

[ControlDenied]

vegan, i cant stand those ass-long dink-posts, sorry I hafta sayit.

Sure the universe is "alive", everything is alive, even lifeless objets (as life uses them to interact with itself), I didn't mean trees weren't alive. obviously, they are. I just meant that the "spirital awakening" quality of the universe doesn't mean you'll suddenly NOTICE things being progressively more "awake", i.e. trees suddenly talking out loud. i believe "progress" is a very human, even industrial, concept. I think all this activity has more to do with some kind of unconscious desires or goals than a steady, measurable progress from ignorance to enlightenment, although that idea also has a lot of basis in truth, sure. id love to believe it but it doesn't explain the paradoxically increasing corruption of the world

 

[diche]

why are you regurgitating Terence McKennas mathematically disporven ideas as your own?

cause they sound so awseome when you're stoned!

 

[swilow]

^Hell, fair enough. You should have said

 

[diche]

well, I been really into a couple of his audiobooks. and with every book i read, my topic of converstions I start are usually based on the concepts/ideas of the book for some time after.

I wasnt trying to plagerize him (if thats what you were getting at) just trying to encorporate his ideas into my collective knowlage.

 

[stonerfromohio]

vegan, i cant stand those ass-long dink-posts, sorry I hafta sayit.

Im not sure why its relavent that you cant stand larger posts... you have the ability to skip them or ignore them... he was adressing questions aimed at him... how was it a "dink" post?

 

[ControlDenied]

cuz it seems like just lines upon lines of babble. ive noticed this "style" before constantly coming out of the same poster (not him, someone else). so i am respectfully suggesting that he retract his Dink and simply write exactly what he means

 

[stonerfromohio]

cuz it seems like just lines upon lines of babble. ive noticed this "style" before constantly coming out of the same poster (not him, someone else). so i am respectfully suggesting that he retract his Dink and simply write exactly what he means

fair enough