• 🇬🇧󠁿 🇸🇪 🇿🇦 🇮🇪 🇬🇭 🇩🇪 🇪🇺
    European & African
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • EADD Moderators: Shambles

Ukip MP

Shambles: ...Leftist groups blocking (or trying to block) other people's rights to free speech...

I agree up to a point. There are laws about inciting violence/racism and such, so that's not 'free' speech anyway (unless we want to change those laws). When EDL type groups organise a march to intimidate a community (like marching on mosques etc), that doesn't seem enough like free speech for me not to cheer on the anti fascist crowd that comes down and exercises their 'free speech' by chasing them away (possibly dishing out some beatings, just as the EDLers would have if they were in the majority).

i'm a lack-of-physical-assets-based pacifist, so don't agree with violence largely, on pragmatic grounds. But the idea of 100 people who individually would likely be physically strong and aggressive more often than most (a stereotype of a fascist) getting chased off by a thousand people who individually are probably weedy, thin-armed, spotty intellectuals who would be snapped like a twig one on one (a stereotype of the trot) just appeals to my underdog mentality (or it's like the nerds/geeks revolution! i'm nerdicus!)
 
I have a rather mixed opinion of stuff like Leftist groups blocking (or trying to block) other people's rights to free speech. I cannot stand groups like EDL and the like... but they do have as much right to say what they believe as anybody else does. If a group tries to suppress them rather than to affect change in less oppressive ways they are acting like the very thing they are trying to stand against. It's counter-productive however satisfying it may be. It's like trying to stamp out football hooliganism by hospitalising hooligans. It may be effective but you lose the idealogical argument by becoming what you are ostensibly against.

Well said, totally agree with you. Some of these anti-fascist groups do seem to act in a fascist way themselves.
 
^ It bugs me cos I would generally be very sympathetic to what said Leftist groups are wanting but when they act like thugs they lose all credibility and only make the rest of us look bad. It's no different from the way the National Front make the more moderate (in terms of actual violence) right wing look bad. It is possible to have odious views without resorting to acting on them. I presume the right finds the left's views as odious as all sane people find theirs. It's a double standard and both are wrong. There are better ways to deal with differences of opinion even if they are much harder to utilise than simple aggression and intimidation.

I agree up to a point. There are laws about inciting violence/racism and such, so that's not 'free' speech anyway (unless we want to change those laws). When EDL type groups organise a march to intimidate a community (like marching on mosques etc), that doesn't seem enough like free speech for me not to cheer on the anti fascist crowd that comes down and exercises their 'free speech' by chasing them away (possibly dishing out some beatings, just as the EDLers would have if they were in the majority).

i'm a lack-of-physical-assets-based pacifist, so don't agree with violence largely, on pragmatic grounds. But the idea of 100 people who individually would likely be physically strong and aggressive more often than most (a stereotype of a fascist) getting chased off by a thousand people who individually are probably weedy, thin-armed, spotty intellectuals who would be snapped like a twig one on one (a stereotype of the trot) just appeals to my underdog mentality (or it's like the nerds/geeks revolution! i'm nerdicus!)

I do find EDL and similar groups to be abhorrent and there's no doubt a certain percentage of their membership are outright thugs who do want to intimidate and indulge in acts of violence. They can't all be thugs though. There are kids on those marches too - maybe they don't get much choice in being there either - and I can imagine it being quite terrifying (intimidating even) to be faced with hardcore Leftist groups hurling abuse - and indeed missiles - at them. As you say, there are laws against inciting racial hatred and against acts of violence. What gives a self-appointed group of political ideologues the right to act as vigilantes?
 
Shambles: I do find EDL and similar groups to be abhorrent and there's no doubt a certain percentage of their membership are outright thugs who do want to intimidate and indulge in acts of violence. They can't all be thugs though. There are kids on those marches too - maybe they don't get much choice in being there either - and I can imagine it being quite terrifying (intimidating even) to be faced with hardcore Leftist groups hurling abuse - and indeed missiles - at them. As you say, there are laws against inciting racial hatred and against acts of violence. What gives a self-appointed group of political ideologues the right to act as vigilantes?

i did indicate they were stereotypes; but there is some truth in it on average - i can certainly attest to the trot stereotype having some reality, though i have met strong-armed thuggish trots (and the weedy intellectual facsists are the worst (like hitler and goebels)). But i take your point.

I agree with violence being politically counter productive in most circumstances - except maybe self defense, which you could argue the counter-demo example i gave is. But i prefer politics without violence, which is partly why i don't (usually) like 'vanguardist' groups like the trots (who appoints the vanguard? how do we know they won't be another stalin? it's all a bit Plato's republic) - but as i said i still tribally recognise my own (cept livingmarxism offshoots (judean people's front!!).

Non-violent politics is often more effective cos it can claim the moral high ground. Eg, the palestinian rights movement has got more sympathy worldwide since it started adopting peaceful resistance models (if no more actual progress). It'd be nice to hope that we could have meaningful revolution without violence (like russel brand wants), but history says that any proper attempt to reorganise the system in the interests of the majority will ultimately be met with violence by the people who most benefit from that system (and who own all the weapons/justice system) - so the violence is probably going to happen, however pacifist i say i am. (in our current state, violence isn't even needed though - the population are easily kept passive with consumption (Panem et iPhonus), media propaganda/brainwashing, and divisive political ideas (whether class or race) - which all still works, even after they had to get rid of the lead in petrol which helped keep us moronic in the past (they've still got the flouride though (conspiracy alert ;))).
 
Last edited:
People's Front of Judea ftw.

Other than that I agree with more or less all you say. I just don't like violence and don't see that it is usually actually beneficial over the long term even if it may have some instant effect sometimes. When groups from both sides of the political divide feel the need to resort to extremist and oppressive methods to try to get whatever it is they want they automatically lose the argument and as it is both sides doing it it simply makes it an even more deeply entrenched divide, brings about yet more suspicion, hatred and bitterness towards each other, turns the whole thing into an endless cycle of tit for tat bullshit. Nobody wins and we end up going nowhere very, very slowly.

I wouldn't for one moment suggest it's easy to bring about change - whatever change any particular group feels necessary - purely through discussion, debate and other non-violent means, but I honestly don't think violence ever really helps a cause. It may work sometimes but will only ever be successful in the short term cos it brings about resentment. Even if the change is actually a beneficial one people will resent being forced into things through oppression and aggression. The counter-revolution is but a matter of time and round and round it goes.
 
Well im gonna join ukip and get myself a job as an mep or farages bit of fluff. Trips to europe at the tax payers expense and noone gives a fuck. Ive just lost my foreigner funded job. Onwards and upwards
 
@Shambles: We agree i think about violence in politics - whenever any one i know (or me) watches some politics and says 'i wish someone would just shoot that cunt michael gove/gideon osbourne/david camera on/iritable duncan syndrome/niggle farridge/tony blair/barracks o'bomber' etc (which is pretty frequent), i just think that it's like a hydra: killing them would make two grow back in its place, even more foaming at the mouth with hate for their class enemies, only this time with more public sympathy for their position (plus i can't even kill spiders, so humans are out).

And while i think the violence would be inevitable, doesn't mean i/we have to start it - go ghandi (or occupy) style, and it's so much harder for the authorities to use their propaganda against you (though they still make shit up, or just get one of their thugs to dress as a hippy and try to get some other hippies to bomb a bridge (like they did in occupy)).

I agree with Mikail Bakunin when talking about whether the 'ends justify the means' in relation to the marxist 'dictatorship of the proletariat' idea (which is supposed to be temporary to keep stuff together until the socialist state is ready (the 'ends')); he warned 'the means become the end', which turned out to be very prophetic about how the bolshevik's version turned out to just be a dictatorship. In the end i think you have to keep the option of violent resistance of some sort somewhere in the back of your mind, even if only weathermen-style with no deaths (except your own inept bombmakers), just as the state has the ever present threat of police violence (and if they don't cut it they can send the army in to 'peterloo' yo ass).

I don't really put much trust in 'reformism' to magically make the state fairer over time; there still needs to constant pressure or things just get unreformed again - and sometimes that involves 'violent' resistance of some sort (like the suffragettes or the poll tax riots (the easy examples)). Where the state has been incrementally reformed over the last 100 years, seems like the big changes have only really come when there's been a real threat of uprising and revolution in the background (post war social democracy, civil rights movement, poll tax, etc) - and the changes have pretty soon started to be reversed when the 'threat' goes away (like the post war welfare state starting to be dismantled about the time the soviets collapsed)


....

Aaaaanyway... On the topic: i think this is just an example of how the ruling neoliberal elite (which ukip represents, despite banker-niggle trying to appear a 'man of the people' (ha!)) will use 'libertarian' positions to forward their stated agenda of dismantling government and public services and replacing it with the economic democracy of international corporate power (one dollar one vote). I'm very distrustful of straight up libertarian positions (in the modern american incarnation), as they're an obvious trojan horse to me - Even though i'd probably (sometimes) call myself anarchist, the endless mantra of 'get rid of gubberment' would at this point get rid of many more hard-won state protections from captial for normal people than it would give liberties - the rich sponsors of libertarianism don't need the state protections, so they just see the liberty ('freedom to keep my money' which they inherited or extracted from someone else's sweat). We can sort out the government later, after we sort out the international oligarchic power above the governments (and there seems no way to do that currently without the gubberment)
 
But i know which side of the barricades i'd be on comrade :sus:

Me too.

Love the characterization of the Left on these last few posts, 'goons', 'thugs', 'fascists'. While only a 'certain percentage' of the EDL are, y'know, outright fucking psychopaths basing ideology on hatred of someone's colour. Just a certain percentage.

Some of you wouldn't know fascism if it marched down your road beating and killing the undesirables. Y'know, drug takers and the like.

Yeah I know what side of the barricade I'm on. Yours. Let's hope you never have to be grateful to people like me. Y'know. Goons.

8(
 
Head above the parapet time.

I actually think a lot of what UKIP say is spot on.

Do I think the UK should have an open door policy to semi-thrid world countries like Romania and Bulgaria? - Do I fuck. Sure we should have an open door policy for countries with similar living standards like France Germany Holland etc.

We should be cherry picking folk from these lower standard of living countries on what they can offer the UK. Not welcome some retarded, uneducated pick pocket and shower them with houses and JSA or whatever fucking benefit they're entitled too. Australia have got a better approach to immigration. The Uk have been caught with our pants down and we're getting royal fucked .


Does this make me a cunt? (In The Spades absence there was a gap to fill)
 
Well im gonna join ukip and get myself a job as an mep or farages bit of fluff. Trips to europe at the tax payers expense and noone gives a fuck. Ive just lost my foreigner funded job. Onwards and upwards

Absurdly, I think he employs his German wife as his PA. Nothing quite like leading by example and being true to yourself and your policies. IMO almost all politicians of all parties are all as bad as each other, they are all fucking hypocrits and full of double standards. Apart from the ex-leader of the Lib Dems, Charles Kennedy, that Scottish guy with the drink problem. Apparently he was one of the very few MPs who did not claim ANY unreasonable expenses, and seems to be one of the very few with any integrity at all.
 
@swedger - Fair dos, you can certainly worry about these issues without being a cunt necesarrily, just don't trust that ukip really care about how it affects the little people. Niggle and his mates don't care about people like us. Don't be fooled by them when they say they're standing up to the establishment - they are very much the establishment (just one of the many faces they put on to more effectively fuck us). Niggle 'man-of-the-people' farridge is a banker-friendly, hedge fund-working, public school educated, tax-shy establishment cunt who's looking out for his class; as shown by his non-immigration-related policies, which are exactly what the tories would do if they could get away with it without loosing their more sensible members (eg flat tax).

Seems to me when most people complain about immigration, when it comes down to it they're actually complaining about capitalism/neo-liberalism (after all why does anyone economically migrate except as a result of the world's wealth being unequally distributed) - at least focus on the corporate cunts that get all the cash from cheap labour (who are the exact class that niggle is standing for)
 
Last edited:
Fuck yer non-violence.

malcolmX1d.jpg


;)
 
Apart from the ex-leader of the Lib Dems, Charles Kennedy, that Scottish guy with the drink problem. Apparently he was one of the very few MPs who did not claim ANY unreasonable expenses, and seems to be one of the very few with any integrity at all.

He comes accross as a really sound guy. Always seems to have sesible things to say. Shame he's attached to the Lib-Dems.

Cant wait to see what happens to their share of the vote in the next general election.......no students thats for sure =D
 
Love the characterization of the Left on these last few posts, 'goons', 'thugs', 'fascists'. While only a 'certain percentage' of the EDL are, y'know, outright fucking psychopaths basing ideology on hatred of someone's colour. Just a certain percentage.

Given how heavily left-biased I am it only seems fair to add a lil balance. I said extremism to the point of violence is wrong on both sides. I can't really see how that could be argued against without accepting the "thugs" and "goons" tag alongside it. Political violence and oppression is equally as repellent whatever the cause happens to be. Is it really all that morally superior to have an ideology of hate towards people who think differently to you than it is to base it on who looks different to you? Are you really saying we should just beat people into agreement? You know damn well that I'm a very long way from being some right-wing apologist but I don't see what point you're trying to make here. I'm criticising violence - I happen to regard it as equally mindless whether it's "my side" doing it or "them" doing it.
 
What's your views on the EDL then SHM?

Shambles - I don't think I've ever heard Tommy Robinson being racist.
 
Oh right i misread your post

But yes.. sometimes some ways of thinking are harmful for society.. especially when those thoughts are put into practise.
 
Given how heavily left-biased I am it only seems fair to add a lil balance. I said extremism to the point of violence is wrong on both sides. I can't really see how that could be argued against without accepting the "thugs" and "goons" tag alongside it. Political violence and oppression is equally as repellent whatever the cause happens to be. Is it really all that morally superior to have an ideology of hate towards people who think differently to you than it is to base it on who looks different to you? Are you really saying we should just beat people into agreement? You know damn well that I'm a very long way from being some right-wing apologist but I don't see what point you're trying to make here. I'm criticising violence - I happen to regard it as equally mindless whether it's "my side" doing it or "them" doing it.

What experience of 'left-wing violence' do you have then? Anything outside of what you've read in the Daily Mail? I doubt it. You don't believe a word of their drug stories but you'll swallow hook, line and sinker all the crap they write about the SWP. Or whoever. Me.

I'm talking about defence of minorities. Ever been in a van with an Asian driver and had bricks put through the window and the driver hospitalized? What's your reply to this? Ask them to please stop politely? Ever been to Brick Lane for anything other than a curry? Ever even been there for a curry? Ever seen the NF/BNP running down the Lane smashing every shop window? What's your answer to them? What did you ever do? I've helped defend Brick Lane. And purely for the purposes of this debate, and nothing else, I'll tell you I've had many many thanks expressed for doing so by the people who live there. Who joined in defending themselves. With baseball bats. Because they had to. But I suppose you'd have written an angry post of condemnation on BL eh? And called the Asian people of Brick Lane 'goons' and 'fascists' for defending themselves. What did you do? What would you do? When they come for the druggies?

You know nothing.

What's your views on the EDL then SHM?

Smash their brains in coz they ain't got nothing in them - Linton Kwesi Johnson
 
I never claimed to have direct experience of left-wing violence. Got no direct experience of right-wing violence either but I don't doubt that exists either. I don't read the Heil - nor any other paper - so have no idea what their opinion is on the matter but I can imagine. I have seen plenty of footage of both left and right wing groups engaging in violent acts towards unarmed protesters or people on EDL marches or whatever. Unarmed people. They may or may not be complete scumbag arseholes with abhorrent views but nobody has the right to be lobbing bricks at unarmed people exercising their right to free speech. If it's okay for the left to do it it has to be okay for the right. We would agree it's not okay for the right so once again I don't see what point you're trying to make here.

The situations you describe are responses to actual violence - that's a whole other matter. I never said anything about defending oneself or one's fellow man from actual violence. That is not the same thing as kicking off because you find somebody's views odious though.
 
Top