Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[Foreigner]

Missing the point perhaps, but not deliberately.
So what is the point? Please explain it to me like you would for a 6 y/old.

I don't think many genders are possible, nor do I think that ignoring the gender division of labour from the past few thousand years can be done overnight. That said, trans people exist, so you should just deal with it.

The thing above about the "man" who got pregnant and had a baby... total cognitive dissonance. He's a biological female who calls himself a man. I see no problem with this, but I don't like it when the media disingenuously makes headlines like, "Man has baby!" He doesn't have a penis... he has female reproductive organs. Genetically he is female. They can't just act like he's the same kind of man as every other man. A person who calls himself a man and a male are two different things.

Like, how hard is it? I'm a biological male but I call myself a pineapple. I really see myself as a pineapple. If I go and donate sperm to make a baby, it doesn't mean that pineapples everywhere are now able to produce humans. lolol We don't have to reclassify pineapples now, do we?

 

[swilow]

Agreed. Gender among mammalian species refers to the being of male or female. Sex refers to copulation.

Gender amongst humans- cos that's what we are talking about and humans are the 'inventors' of the concept of gender- can also refer to the social construct we add on top of the biological aspect.

It's a semantic debate in that sense, but when I say sex above, I am referring to the primary or secondary sexual characteristics. Gender is related but in general refers to the social construct- masculinity or femininity. Not everything aesthetically masculine has a cock n balls.

If something is a social construction, I'm thinking the definition of it is going to be as malleable as any other social constuction. It's gonna change over time. The more I age, the more I realise we are playing make believe dress ups anyway. I wanna be the robber!

Maybe you mean there are only 2 biological sexes. Either way, if someone told me there was a 3rd, 4th, whatever biological sex, I wouldn't agree.

Not obsessed. I thought this thread is a conversation about such topics. Others here seem to care.

Fair enough, it's just that you've gone on about this definition of gender for literally weeks. It seems to be a bugbear of yours.

Can you explain why it matters if some people think there are more than 2 genders? What is the worst consequence of this?

 

[w01fg4ng]

The thing above about the "man" who got pregnant and had a baby... total cognitive dissonance. He's a biological female who calls himself a man. I see no problem with this, but I don't like it when the media disingenuously makes headlines like, "Man has baby!"

You are misquoting the title. I didn't think a title would be that hard to read, but I guess I need to repost it for you.

The dad who gave birth: ‘Being pregnant doesn't change me being a trans man’

if someone told me there was a 3rd, 4th, whatever biological sex, I wouldn't agree.

Farmers and scientists disagree with you.


The Six Most Common Karyotypes
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:

• X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
• XX – Most common form of female
• XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
• XY – Most common form of male
• XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
• XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

 

[swilow]

^Interesting, however I'm not so sure that chromosomal disorders like Turners indicates a unique sex so to speak.

 

[w01fg4ng]

What does?

 

[alasdairm]

So what is the point? Please explain it to me like you would for a 6 y/old.

if i thought you were engaging in good faith i would...

alasdair

 

[Foreigner]

You are misquoting the title. I didn't think a title would be that hard to read, but I guess I need to repost it for you.

The dad who gave birth: ‘Being pregnant doesn't change me being a trans man’



Farmers and scientists disagree with you.


The Six Most Common Karyotypes
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:

• X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
• XX – Most common form of female
• XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
• XY – Most common form of male
• XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
• XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

The statistics speak for themselves. Those are deviations from norm. They also have nothing to do with gender construct.

 

[Factualist]

The efforts by well-funded scientists to create a relatively simple single-cell organism, such as a yeast cell for example, have been considerable. The results to this day are totally lame.
As for creating a new gender lol...not in our lifetime.

There is a very well established difference between sex and gender, that is completely uncontroversial among biologists, psychologists, and sociologists, which has been elucidated many, many, many times in this very thread.

Lol at the wording of "creating a new gender", what? To surpass metal gear? What does this even mean lls

You truly have no idea what you're talking about and clearly have no interest in debating this issue in good faith.

 

[swilow]

What does?

Honesty, I don't know if anything does, but incredibly rare chromosomal disorders don't seem a very good candidate. It also doesn't particularly matter because my original statement was to try and separate biological sex from the gender debate. I think they are relatively distinct things.

 

[Derschieber]

I see everyone above agrees with me. 2 genders, 2 sexes, male and female.
Bruce is a man, Caitlin is a man, dressed as a woman - a social construction called "trans", which is the lasted word for what was traditionally called "tranny" (now considered rude). Gender dysphoria.
Trans people try to be and look like the opposite sex.
I am rather fond of Trans people, as they play the important role of simply exposing the SJW ideology for what it is. Namely: (Self-Snipped)
The rabidly insane Marxists pushing this crap are going after our children. Predictably.
In simpler times, we would simply cut their heads off. With a sword. Or strip them naked and walk them through Kings Landing.
Since this is not a viable option, here we are, talking.

Male is for men and boys.
Female is for women and girls.
Malformation is not a gender.

It's perfectly fine to disagree. As others have said already.
Leave the children out of it.

 

[Factualist]

I see everyone above agrees with me. 2 genders, 2 sexes, male and female.
Bruce is a man, Caitlin is a man, dressed as a woman - a social construction called "trans", which is the lasted word for what was traditionally called "tranny" (now considered rude). Gender dysphoria.
Trans people try to be and look like the opposite sex.
I am rather fond of Trans people, as they play the important role of simply exposing the SJW ideology for what it is. Namely: (Self-Snipped)
The rabidly insane Marxists pushing this crap are going after our children. Predictably.
In simpler times, we would simply cut their heads off. With a sword. Or strip them naked and walk them through Kings Landing.
Since this is not a viable option, here we are, talking.

Male is for men and boys.
Female is for women and girls.
Malformation is not a gender.

It's perfectly fine to disagree. As others have said already.
Leave the children out of it.

>Marxists

Theeeere it is. Marx didn't have a whole lot to say about trans people, surprisingly. Are trans people using dialectical materialism to turn the frogs gay? What does any of this have to do with Karl Marx? Or are you talking about "cultural marxism", invented by the Frankfurt School of Witchcraft and Wizardy? Tell me about how these people are "post-modernists" despite being directly opposed to most post-modern theory as materialists.

>SJW ideology

Somehow I never encountered this in any of my political theory classes. Can you break it down for me?

 

[swilow]

2 genders, 2 sexes, male and female.

You could at least pretend to argue in good faith. I can see almost nobody agreeing with your binary description of gender. Sex and gender are not the same thing. Do we really need to explain it again?

Your ranting about Marxists is exactly what I'd expect from a fascist I'm not sure what Marx wrote about gender dysphoria, I don't think he did but I have never read his writing.

 

[Factualist]

You could at least pretend to argue in good faith. I can see almost nobody agreeing with your binary description of gender. Sex and gender are not the same thing. Do we really need to explain it again?

Your ranting about Marxists is exactly what I'd expect from a fascist I'm not sure what Marx wrote about gender dysphoria, I don't think he did but I have never read his writing.

Well if you knew your FACTS libtard, you'd have heard about this quote, pretty damning imo

 

[swilow]

Fuck. So all Marxists are transgender? I see.

Life is getting so simple isn't it?

 

[Derschieber]

Why is my good faith being questioned? Isn't this just another way saying: "You are a troll" ?
I already agreed with you swilow. Sex and gender are not the same thing. Agreed Agreed Agreed.

Ranting about Marxists ? Ranting? Where is the ranting? Where is your good faith?
Did I imagine all those Hammer & Sickle Flags at the gender march? Or was it the pride parade? Climate rally?
Do we really need pictures to show what everyone already knows?

 

[Foreigner]

Radical leftism is neo-Marxism (not Marxism), but not all trans people are neo-Marxists. I think that's a misattribution.

 

[JessFR]

^Interesting, however I'm not so sure that chromosomal disorders like Turners indicates a unique sex so to speak.

Indeed, in fact I would argue that it absolutely does not.

I would argue that on the grounds that considering xx to be female and xy to be male is totally arbitrary. It's certainly simple, and it is usually accurate. But so is defining pi to 3.

It would be much more accurate to say that what differentiate males and female as far as chromosomes go. Is the presence of sex determining region y. Also known simply as SRY. For anyone who doesn't know, it's the crucial portion of the Y chromosome that causes a fetus on the path to developing female, to develop male instead.

If it's defective you can be born apparently female yet appear XY on a chromosome test.

 

[Factualist]

Indeed, in fact I would argue that it absolutely does not.

I would argue that on the grounds that considering xx to be female and xy to be male is totally arbitrary. It's certainly simple, and it is usually accurate. But so is defining pi to 3.

It would be much more accurate to say that what differentiate males and female as far as chromosomes go. Is the presence of sex determining region y. Also known simply as SRY. For anyone who doesn't know, it's the crucial portion of the Y chromosome that causes a fetus on the path to developing female, to develop male instead.

If it's defective you can be born apparently female yet appear XY on a chromosome test.

Each individual condition does not represent a unique "sex" but they all fall under the category of "intersex", which includes a lot of other conditions and is not itself a sex per say but represents a shortcoming of our traditional understanding of what defines sex. The point of bringing intersex people up in the context of this debate is to demonstrate that these aren't rigid, black or white concepts we're dealing with. They're the sum of many different characteristics, not a single discrete characteristic.

Radical leftism is neo-Marxism (not Marxism)

There are a lot of anarchists, orthodox Marxists, left-communists, democratic socialists, Trotskyists, etc. etc. who would vehemently disagree with this. Especially anarchists, since anarchism was developed before and is almost entirely distinct from Marxism, although they certainly influenced each other and there are some currents of thought which attempt to reconcile the differences between Marxism and anarchism. All these words you guys keep using very liberally have specific meanings that matter. "Neo-marxism" is a specific thing, so is post-modernism, so is communism, etc. The way some people use these words interchangeably kind of suggests they don't know what these things actually mean. There's also no such thing as "leftism" in any meaningful sense because there are so many different schools of thought, many of them fundamentally incompatible. Make it clearer and just say "the bad guys".

Climate rally?

Hot damn we're getting into climate change? Let's gooo

 

[JessFR]

Each individual condition does not represent a unique "sex" but they all fall under the category of "intersex", which includes a lot of other conditions and is not itself a sex per say but represents a shortcoming of our traditional understanding of what defines sex. The point of bringing intersex people up in the context of this debate is to demonstrate that these aren't rigid, black or white concepts we're dealing with. They're the sum of many different characteristics, not a single discrete characteristic.

I agree. That's kinda what I was saying. That biologically and genetically, sex isn't an easy binary state.

Wanting to simply things is a pretty normal human behavior, but this shit is not simple.

 

[Foreigner]

There are a lot of anarchists, orthodox Marxists, left-communists, democratic socialists, Trotskyists, etc. etc. who would vehemently disagree with this. Especially anarchists, since anarchism was developed before and is almost entirely distinct from Marxism, although they certainly influenced each other and there are some currents of thought which attempt to reconcile the differences between Marxism and anarchism. All these words you guys keep using very liberally have specific meanings that matter. "Neo-marxism" is a specific thing, so is post-modernism, so is communism, etc. The way some people use these words interchangeably kind of suggests they don't know what these things actually mean. There's also no such thing as "leftism" in any meaningful sense because there are so many different schools of thought, many of them fundamentally incompatible. Make it clearer and just say "the bad guys".

Who is "you guys"? Who was using words interchangeably? Not I.

Modern radical leftism is neo-Marxism. I can expound upon why if you wish.

I am very specific about my word choices. If you have something specific you want to talk about, then please refer to it directly instead of writing a big semantic paragraph that really points to nothing at all.