Tram to Sub - Please help!

[Trek83]

Need advice about sub, please help!

Hi all, 1st official post for me so please be gentle! Lol

I'm aware I could have searched for this, I don't have the energy to do that right now. Please, no patronising, 'use the search function' replies - I need help, not a smart ass.

Firstly, thank you in advance for any responses I get, I've been referring to bl for years and have only recently signed up. I know there are some very experienced and helpful people on here. Anyway;

I've had a bit of a nightmare with opioid meds over the last few years. I worked as a civil engineer for 6 years and as a result of long days on my feet in boots and walking several kilometers a day & weight gain (which I've now lost), I developed bad foot pain and was initially prescribed different NSAIDs over a few months until finding one that didn't trigger my asthma, or was ineffective. These had minimal effect on my level of pain and I was eventually prescribed codeine phosphate 30mg x 8 daily. I've always been someone who seems to have a naturally high tolerance to alcohol and/or drugs, recreational or not. As a result of this, my Dr changed me over to DHC - inevitably the same thing happened and within a month I was eating them like smarties, lol. After lots of trial and error I settled with slow release Tramadol @ 200mg twice daily.

That was 2 years ago. I've recently had cortisone shots in the soles of my feet and I'm actually enjoying being relatively pain free for the first time in far too long - such a relief.

I've tried so many times to come off of the Tramadol, eg, switching to, and tapering off of another opioid, cold turkey, instant release Tram, It's just not been working. I'm not a strong willed person and as soon as I reduce my dose even a little, I get the most horrific wd symptoms, cold sweats, hot flashes, weird NASTY brain zaps, no energy, I don't need to tell you guys the rest, you know exactly what I mean & there are people who have it far worse than me, on far worse things -I'm aware of this. I just feel dreadful, which is not good at all as I have a wife and 3 kids to be attentive for, plus I work all week and do disco hire/djing when the work is there.

Anyway, on to my predicament;
I went to see my doctor on weds of this week and he suggested trying Subutex. I've been more than happy to try anything, I just want the normal me back! So I went to pick up my Sub on Thursday. I took my normal 200mg Tram on Friday morning @ 8am and 50mg Friday eve @ around 6.30pm, as if I hadn't taken any Tram I wouldn't have slept all night due to wd's and I had work in the morning. So the morning came after a sketchy night sleep and I started on a 2mg dose of Sub @ 7:10am, by 8:00am I felt fantastic! Did my shift at work and by 3pm was starting to feel a bit 'down', so I took a further 2mg of Sub. This fucked me up & not in a good way. I felt very drowsy, dizzy, hearing went very sensitive to my kids playing etc, luckily my Mrs was here so I laid down for a couple of hours and felt ok afterwards, just tired for the rest of the day and evening.

To be expected, I felt a little withdraw-ish this morning and took 2mg of sub at 8:30am. It's now 11:40am and I'm still feeling mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms. I don't know what to do now though, I took more yesterday and it messed me up for a while. I've been on Tram for a while and not expecting to be clean overnight. I could just do with advice from someone more experienced than myself. Was it normal to feel what I felt yesterday afternoon? Should I take 4mg in 1 hit each morning? Should I take more sub now? Or just ride it out? I understand it's a balancing act with Sub to increase/decrease the dose until I'm comfortable, but I'm worried now. My Dr told me that I may have to adjust the dose a bit to find where I'm happy & he's given me enough to do that with.

If anyone could offer some knowledge on this matter I'd be very grateful.

Thanks for taking the time to read my essay! lol

Pete

 

[sickofthisshiz]

You are better off to just taper off of the trams. There are a million people on this site who will attest to the fact that Suboxone is one of the hardest, longest opiods to detox from. l know tramadol can be a bitch too, it has the snri activity as well, so it is kind of like withdrawals from an opiate and an antidepressant. Doctor's just love prescribing it because it's not a controlled substance.

 

[Trek83]

Thanks for your response. I'll certainly take that on board and if I'm not feeling any better by tomorrow evening I'll be going back to my dr. Do you think it'd be easier to taper off the instant release tram? I'm sure this is down to the individual, but do you think I would get hooked on sub if I was on it for 2 weeks @ 4mg daily and reduced it gradually over the following 2-3 weeks so I'd only have been on it for 5-6 weeks top by the time I stopped? I've just tried to reduce my tram so many times and I just can't seem to do it. It's the depression that gets me more than anything. I've always been a very strong person mentally, tramadol just reduces me to a mental wreck though :-(

 

[twotoomany]

4 mg is way too much. I came off a 40+mg oxy habit (small, I know) with .5mg for two days, then .25.

The subs aren't going to help with the snri aspect of tram WD. I don't think it's a good option, and I'd begin tapering now.

If its still rough when you jump off subs, taper with the trams.

 

[Trek83]

Thanks twotoomany. Bad timing that my dr was on leave on Friday and this has happened over the wk end. I think that I felt so awful on Sat as a result of too much sub (unintentionally).
I don't know a lot about opioids but I know enough to get by. I was expecting to have to deal with the snri wds of the trams, from my understanding that's where it differs from other opioids (is that right?) .
I was hoping 2-3 weeks of sub would help me get over the jitters/brain zaps/restlessness/insomnia and any other 'physical' wd symptoms.
Sadly, tapering with tram has never worked for me....I've attempted it at least 10 times over the last 2 years and only ever managed to get down to 350mg daily; I then bounce back the other way and end up taking 500-600mg for the following few days to feel somewhat normal again.
Since I started the tram I've tried switching to codeine, meptid (awful), dhc, and every time I've ended up back on tramadol to avoid feeling shit. My body must have some weird affinity with it, lol. It's a tough nut to crack.

 

[Toz]

You are replacing an addiction to one of the easier opiates to come off with one of the hardest. Please for your own sake do not keep taking the subutex and switch back to tramadol immediately and taper your dose. Subutex will only help with the opiate part of tramadol withdrawal anyway, so in essence you'll get two different addictions you will have to get rid of instead of one (due to tramadol's serotonin effect). Switching to another opiate will not help with brain zaps and the like.

I've quit both subs and tramadol cold turkey and the subs was alot harder to come off. Withdrawal from subutex lasts 2x-3x as long as tramadol, you don't want that.

 

[Trek83]

I've not taken any tram since Friday pm....I know it's all down to the individual, but do you think if I stopped both tomorrow I'd feel really shit? I'm obviously not going to feel great, nor am I naive enough to think 2 days is enough to be home free after 2 years at 400mg+ daily. You sound a lot more experienced than myself and I'm at the point where I'll try anything....it's ruining my life and I want to be the happy, good father, chilled out, easy going me again.

 

[mrflowers00]

tram wds are much more mild than sub wds and you may have felt i'll when starting the subs because most people have to wait 24 to 72 hours after taking an opiate/opioid before taking subs or they can get sent into precipitated withdrawals which are way worse than your average run of the meal opiate withdrawals