Today I learned why a scale is absolutely necessary..

[webbykevin]

you only yolo once

Can you prove that ?

 

[Deinonychus]

Volumes of powder can be visually misleading. I made a fool of myself my second or third RC buy by being skeptical of the weight of a vial of 2C-E in reference to a vial of 2C-I. They were both ordered as grams.

Well it turns out there was actually 1.75 grams of 2C-E and 1.2 of 2C-I, even though the 2C-E looked to be about half as full (vial filled halfway as opposed to vial filled to the brim). Oops.

And then much later I got a shipment of 2C-E in that was the exact opposite, fluffy as all hell. It was more accurately *pillowy*, not fluffy. Or maybe fluffy but clumpy all at once. Whevever you shifted the bag around instead of the powder moving like a powder it would form into pillow-shaped bits that were maybe one to three millimeters in diameter, and a proper dose looked HUGE.

Lesson is to not judge weight, or molar weight for that matter, by density, as density is usually a function of the microscopic (not molecular-scale though) shape of the crystals as well as the size of those crystals. So something that is fluffy may actually be made of spiky crystals that hold one another apart with their protrusions leaving a lot of empty space in the mix, or something dense may be made up of mostly smooth crystalline conglomerations so there's not much room for air. Then the fine or course nature of the powder, independent of the shape of the microscale structure, is more dependent on particle size.

 

[Incunabula]

Amen

 

[bloodshed344]

Volumes of powder can be visually misleading. I made a fool of myself my second or third RC buy by being skeptical of the weight of a vial of 2C-E in reference to a vial of 2C-I. They were both ordered as grams.

Well it turns out there was actually 1.75 grams of 2C-E and 1.2 of 2C-I, even though the 2C-E looked to be about half as full (vial filled halfway as opposed to vial filled to the brim). Oops.

And then much later I got a shipment of 2C-E in that was the exact opposite, fluffy as all hell. It was more accurately *pillowy*, not fluffy. Or maybe fluffy but clumpy all at once. Whevever you shifted the bag around instead of the powder moving like a powder it would form into pillow-shaped bits that were maybe one to three millimeters in diameter, and a proper dose looked HUGE.

Lesson is to not judge weight, or molar weight for that matter, by density, as density is usually a function of the microscopic (not molecular-scale though) shape of the crystals as well as the size of those crystals. So something that is fluffy may actually be made of spiky crystals that hold one another apart with their protrusions leaving a lot of empty space in the mix, or something dense may be made up of mostly smooth crystalline conglomerations so there's not much room for air. Then the fine or course nature of the powder, independent of the shape of the microscale structure, is more dependent on particle size.

Very intelligent and useful information for anyone dealing with these chemicals. As someone who has had a few different batches of 2C-E I've only seen it when it was fluffy and so I would figure it was all like that, but now I know better.

 

[electrodevo]

And I don't know what kind of "milligram scale" you ordered, but the only scales I would trust to be accurate to within one or two mgs cost about 5000 dollars or more. So I would re-evaluate what you are planning to do to dose yourself when you get that scale...unless you spend more than 5K on it and it is the real deal.

Well, you can find used .0001g good quality analytical balances for a lot less than that price (about 1/5th to 1/10th that, I reckon). But you probably really need that only for 1-5mg active compounds (like the 5-MEOs). (Maybe even the ng compounds too, but those would be rather tough to measure out, I'd think...)

A long time ago I tested one el cheapo jewelry scale (.001mg, it might have been the Gem-pro) using NIST calibration weights, and found that it was surprisingly pretty accurate above 5mg-10mg. I'm not sure I'd trust these scales for very exact measurements without some reference weights because I don't trust the construction *that* much, but it'd be more cost effective than the analytical balance, and would far outperform eyeballing.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Shit, just glad you got the memo before you carved out lines of each and starting snorting multiple over-dosages like far too many others! Seriously, you are awesome for coming to the right conclusions about psychedelic research chemicals before you killed yourself or somebody else. You are on the 'cool' list!

PS...volumetric is fine. My scale seems pretty accurate (ohaus reference weights to be sure) and weighs down to 1mg...but I am now in the habit of using volumetric techniques for any psychedelic active at less than 50mg...and I must add that with 2C-E (where every extra 2mg makes a difference and every 4mg seems to double the intensity) and others of that power....you simply cannot be too careful.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Hmm good idea.. except for the fact that I know you can't accurately measure 1mg unless you've got an analytical balance worth a few grand.. even weighing 10mg on anything less is not going to be all that accurate from everything I read in the scale/balance thread.

Well, that's why you need to weigh an appropriate quantity for your scale's accuracy. If your scale is accurate +/- 2 mg, then for +/- 5% accuracy liquid concentration, you need to weigh out at least 40 mg of 25X-NBOMe. That way, if you attempt to dose 500 mcg, you would get anything between 475 and 525 mcg. Not bad.

 

[kidklmx]

Btw, I totally forgot to tell you that if you're going to dose 25i-NBOMe nasally (and you will once you get how annoying sublingual is when a substance is not orally active) then you should dilute the vodka with (distilled) water until the alcohol is at about 10%. Otherwise it will hurt, even with such a small amount

 

[infantannihilator]

Well, that's why you need to weigh an appropriate quantity for your scale's accuracy. If your scale is accurate +/- 2 mg, then for +/- 5% accuracy liquid concentration, you need to weigh out at least 40 mg of 25X-NBOMe. That way, if you attempt to dose 500 mcg, you would get anything between 475 and 525 mcg. Not bad.

Yeah, I know, I was just saying in reference to using a capsule and then putting 1mg in that. As you said you need to measure something appropriate for your scale so that the % of error is minimized.

I only have 10mg of nbome on the way, which in theory should be 20 doses.. which is more than enough for me, depending on how my natural tolerance ends up being. I know some people trip multiple times a week or weekly, but I'm just not that kind of person, tripping is a planned excursion that takes a considerable amount of time, I have a life outside of drug use which I must attend to in order to keep the ball rolling so to speak, and with other compounds I am interested in, this 10mg of 25i should last me a very, very long time, Im talking years. So with that I'm going to have to play a little russian roulette both hoping my scale is accurate enough and that my vendor accurately weighed the amount as well. I'll use the 'quarter' or the 'no tare' trick and measure a few times. Since ill be taking that nasally within a solution (vodka at that) I have to have it relatively concentrated or else I risk wasting it.. so there is another element of 'danger' so to speak, but I am confident that I am doing everything in my power to minimize this as much as I can.

The person who initially turned me onto 25i told me, and I quote "just eye out 1-2mg and snort it, good luck" so I mean.. some people out there really dont give a fuck at all

Btw, I totally forgot to tell you that if you're going to dose 25i-NBOMe nasally (and you will once you get how annoying sublingual is when a substance is not orally active) then you should dilute the vodka with (distilled) water until the alcohol is at about 10%. Otherwise it will hurt, even with such a small amount

Ah yeah, I had thought of that, was considering a 50/50 40%abv vodka/dist.water mix, or whatever it would take to bring it down around 20 or below (I can do the math just not off the top of my head here lol) but saw that a number of people just didnt bother

 

[Solipsis]

Yeah, people eyeballing NBOMe compounds should be ashamed of themselves...

Also, powders differ in volumetric appearance because they can crystallize under different circumstances and turn very fluffy or not, or microcrystalline, etc. If they happen to be put under great pressure because there are large quantities being stacked the powder may clump together and become dense. Some compounds attract water from the air more than others which can also change the consistency. There are so many factors...
You cannot judge such things properly by looking at it. Get a microgram scale, all of you.

I would be very surprised if your vendor got you the wrong amount of 25I-NBOMe but your scale corrects that wrong weight to appear right and all of that would happen with a margin that results in physical danger.
I applied a technique putting NBOMe compounds on solid carriers which is risky because even though I dissolved both first it may result in local concentrations of the drug. That is why I did it only with amounts so small that I could afford a pretty ridiculous error margin and still be reasonably safe. And that is why I doubt you need to worry.

But do the calculations right with volumetric measurement and stuff like that, and don't fool yourself by dosing with tolerance and thinking that you are immune.

 

[infantannihilator]

Microgram, you mean milligram? Honestly, I realize that its the best course of action but the costs are just too obscene.. Yeah there is the element of if you cant afford it then don't do it but even a used microgram scale will run you over a thousand.. I'm not poor by any means but at the same time it doesnt make sense to shell out that much to do a compound that costs me literally a dollar a dose. I guess its a give and take, but yeah.

Like I said with the nbome Ive got an insulin syringe and I chopped the end of the cap off so I can insert it in my nose and administer as little as 2ius (.02ml) so I can be very accurate with the volumetric dose. To be honest I had considered buying a sheet of blotter and using isopropyl to lay individual blotters since I plan to have the stuff around for a long time and I cannot be certain about the vodka solution staying good for a year or two or more (though it should). Either way I am going to do the vodka solution and freeze it.

The part about you being surprised if the vendor gave the wrong amount but my scale corrects it to be right.. Im not sure I follow you, the margin of error shouldnt be that bad, +/-2mg so if my vendor gave me say 12mg and my scale said 10, and I diluted in 2ml of solute so .5mg/.1ml the worst it would be is .6mg/.1ml which, I realize can be a significant shift in what this compound could do, but so long as I start low I can learn what my tolerance is.. and yes I well know that attempting to account for tolerance is the stupidest idea ever because you never know.. there are so many physiological variables that you cant even begin to take into account

 

[Thomas Davie]

Microgram, you mean milligram? Honestly, I realize that its the best course of action but the costs are just too obscene.. Yeah there is the element of if you cant afford it then don't do it but even a used microgram scale will run you over a thousand.. I'm not poor by any means but at the same time it doesnt make sense to shell out that much to do a compound that costs me literally a dollar a dose. I guess its a give and take, but yeah.

The standard balance I use is a Denver Instruments (DI-24?) +/- 100ug. Cost was a flat $1000 on a system contract. I've got access to a Mettler +/- 10ug, but refuse to use it and fuck up people's work (potentially). You can buy refurbished balances from Fisher Scientific that are ~$500 w/o a system contract. A good set of certified weights will run about $1000.

My personal rule of thumb is that if I can't weigh it, I won't try it. I make the exception with weed and home grown mushrooms. As far as volumetric measurement goes, I'm all for it. either marked microcentrifuge tubes or a micro pipette.

Tom

 

[infantannihilator]

Well, eventually perhaps I will upgrade my measurement techniques, but for now I believe them to be more than adequate for myself.

I recieved my 25i and they sent 14mg instead of 10 Pretty pleased in this regard haha, also good to know that they wrote it down.