Today I learned why a scale is absolutely necessary..

[infantannihilator]

Today I came home to a mysterious yellow package from an unknown printing company.
Opened it up to find two 250mg quantites of 2c-i and 2c-e. I am delighted as I only made the order Thursday night.

I had VERY little idea of just how much 250mg actually looked like, but I can tell you, this amount is pretty small. I've known people into coke who would balk at the size of the lines I could make.. and this is 250mg. I can only imagine what the 10mg of 25i will look like when I get it. I had semi-entertained the idea of eyeing out 15-20mg but no way is it going to happen.

Now the odd thing I noticed is that there appears to be more 2c-e, 1.5x the amount of 2c-i in fact.. now my chem is really, really rusty and I only took it up to grade 12 but these are the apparent molar masses: 2c-i 307.13 g/mol, 2c-e 209.2859 g/mol. They should be the HCl form, so I know that changes the masses slightly, but it should be an even change for both no?

Now I really need to reread how mols work but the numbers are the reverse of what I see in the bags, with 2c-i's g/mol being ~1.5x higher than 2c-e's. How does this affect the density of the powder?

In any case, the sciency stuff aside, it is apparent that there should probably be a difference in the visual quantity of the powders, but it is also apparent that I need a scale to verify that this is the case.. and it is also very apparent that attempting to eye out any quantity would be foolish if not futile. I've noticed the 2c-e really likes to stick to the bag, so that brings up another little question: just how do you guys go about handling these substances? Since they stick to anything they touch, it seems losses could add up.. its the sticky tape effect, touch it with one utensil and use another to scrape the first utensil off and you go back and forth.. This is actually a glaring problem in my head for when it comes to handling the 25i - yes I plan a volumetric approach, but I know 1mg is supposedly what fits on a pin head if that (and I believe it now).. if any of that sticks to the bags then yikes.. major losses :s

 

[sekio]

molar mass and density are unrelated. don't get fooled into thinking a heavier m.w. = more dense because it just isn't.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Here's what I did to get around the problem of losing sticky NBOMe powder to my measurement equipment:

1. Load NBOMe sample into gelatin capsule.
2. Weigh capsule.
3. Empty capsule directly into vial, in which liquid solution will be made. Some will inevitably stick to the inside of the capsule.
4. Weigh capsule again.
5. Subtract second weight from first weight, and you now know exactly how much NBOMe made it into your vial.

 

[infantannihilator]

molar mass and density are unrelated. don't get fooled into thinking a heavier m.w. = more dense because it just isn't.

I realized this would be the case after I began digging into it (not the powder lol).

That said has anyone noticed a difference in the densities of each? I honestly assumed they would be similar. There are chances I got "hooked up" I suppose.. but at this point I have no idea. Like I said I had somewhat entertained the idea of halving until I was at a ~16mg dose, but thats assuming a perfect 250mg, and with the differences in quantity I know it would be even dumber to make any assumptions. I did notice that the 2c-i appears to be drier and not as sticky.

Here's what I did to get around the problem of losing sticky NBOMe powder to my measurement equipment:

1. Load NBOMe sample into gelatin capsule.
2. Weigh capsule.
3. Empty capsule directly into vial, in which liquid solution will be made. Some will inevitably stick to the inside of the capsule.
4. Weigh capsule again.
5. Subtract second weight from first weight, and you now know exactly how much NBOMe made it into your vial.

Hmm good idea.. except for the fact that I know you can't accurately measure 1mg unless you've got an analytical balance worth a few grand.. even weighing 10mg on anything less is not going to be all that accurate from everything I read in the scale/balance thread.
I think I'll do that though, except Ill just measure the substance in the baggy and then weigh the baggy after.

Thing with the baggies is substance sticking and getting caught on the closure and the sides of the bag. Baggies are really horrible ways of holding powder lol.

 

[GolemGolem]

I did, back when E and I were legal in the US I noticed the exact same thing you're noticing now. My 2C-E is super fluffy too. My MXE has been all over the map, the first time I had crystals I was almost sure I was shorted until I weighed it, and found I actually got ~5% extra.

However, vendors rarely send exactly one gram of anything, sometimes a few mgs short, more often up to 10% extra because they are nice and/or don't want to be accused of shorting a bag. You need scales.
As for tools I use microspatulas (from Amazon) to scoop, the standard weighing pan on my scale and then dump onto a rolling paper/clean glass/mirror depending on ROA, doubt I lose more than a mg every time I go into my bags. Clean your gear after each use though, esp if anything super potent is being used like an nbome.

 

[infantannihilator]

Yeah Im not going to even try until my scale comes in.. I went down to a local store on the weekend that sells scales and vials and gel caps and pretty much anything and everything youd ever need.. but when I told them I needed a milligram scale at first the guy was like "you mean .01?" and when I said "no, .001" his eyes got wide lol. So they didnt have any so I had to order online..

First time customer too so they may have hooked me up, not sure. Either way, I am very impressed with how fast they got the product too.

Im thinking with the NBOMe ill do somewhat like TheAppleCore said and just weight the baggie first, unload the quantity into my mixing vial, and then reweigh the baggy so that Im not transferring the powder between an intermediary holder

 

[Deleted member 290563]

like Seiko said, it has nothing to do with molecular weights of the compound. density of a powder can have do do with issues such as if it has been recrystallized or is "crude crystal", how finely it is chopped up. the existence of mesomorphs or hydrates of the crystals being present or not (this is in line with the first point). mass is mass so a scale will tell you what you have, fluffiness of powders can make them look like different amounts (masses) even though they are not. 2ce.....snort a piece about half the size of a matchead and that should be safe....any more and you might go deeper than you wanted.

 

[Deleted member 290563]

And I don't know what kind of "milligram scale" you ordered, but the only scales I would trust to be accurate to within one or two mgs cost about 5000 dollars or more. So I would re-evaluate what you are planning to do to dose yourself when you get that scale...unless you spend more than 5K on it and it is the real deal.

 

[kidklmx]

Couldn't you do the same with just the bag? NBOMes are sticky so getting it out of the gel-cap might be troublesome

LucidSDreamer, the Gem-pro might not be accurate enough for weighing single doses of the 5-Meo's or DOxes or whatever (you need a 0.0001 scale for that!), but once you get some weight going (above 20mg) then they're fairly accurate given the proper handling. Some use a quarter underneath the pan and others just weigh out a couple of doses and use liquid measurement. Whatever though, a scale is better than none

 

[GolemGolem]

Im thinking with the NBOMe ill do somewhat like TheAppleCore said and just weight the baggie first, unload the quantity into my mixing vial, and then reweigh the baggy so that Im not transferring the powder between an intermediary holder

On that one you're only getting 10mgs, so hopefully the vendor was exact and the sample will be marked something like "10.2" milligrams, a specific weight in micrograms. If they do that I might just trust them and make my solution in the bag it came in to prevent loss by little bits stuck in the corners of the bag, and more importantly it's hard to trust inexpensive milligram scales at that level. Weighing the bag before and after (and after the bag is dry).
I never attempted to make a volumetric solution with less than 30mgs I've weighed myself just because that's about where I trust it enough to get it right within 2mgs. The one time I was blessed with a 20.3mg sample of DOI I just had to trust that the vendor had better scales than I. Find the scale and balance big and dandy and read about proper use of your scale too, they can be finicky.

 

[Thomas Davie]

No No NO NO NO.

I have a chem degree. I've been a lab tech for over 25 years. I've come across very high molecular weight, highly purified lyophillized (freeze dried) enzymes that have a large volume. So large that when compared side by side with an equivalent weight of a low molecular weight salt, it's easily 10x the volume. Please do NOT make the mistake that you can accurately generalize weights or densities from molecular weights. You just can't. Period. Thank you for realizing that you need a scale.

How do I get chems out of a bag? I wear nitrile gloves, a face mask and I work in a low draft humidity controlled environment. Sometimes I use a glove box. I use a ceramic scoopula. And yes, I've made a glovebox for home work.

Please stay safe.

As an example, I weighed out 8 doses of 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate, attempting to eyeball out 15 mg doses (but I weighed out every eyeballed dose). I ended up with 10.0, 13.0, 13.3, 13.3, 13.8, 15.0, 16.2 and 16.2 mg. A wide variation and I've been weighing out milligram and sub milligram doses for years.

Tom

(I ain't ragging on you; and apologize if it seems like that. Take molecular weights into consideration if you need to convert back and forth from salts to free base forms)

 

[infantannihilator]

And I don't know what kind of "milligram scale" you ordered, but the only scales I would trust to be accurate to within one or two mgs cost about 5000 dollars or more. So I would re-evaluate what you are planning to do to dose yourself when you get that scale...unless you spend more than 5K on it and it is the real deal.

Yes I am definitely not going to trust it with anything really > than 20mg

I was going to weigh out 50mg or so and use a volumetic approach to get down to dose levels < 20mg

This does present a problem with the 10mg of nbome, so I will have to put more faith in their judgement, and I know regardless any measurement could be off 1-2mg each way.

The one trick I read is to not tare the pan (or as below, add a coin) so that there is weight on the scale and its not just at 0, this will help give a more accurate measurement.

I don't think ANYONE here has a $5000 scale.

No offence taken Thom. I've read quite a lot on these compounds and am fairly confident in what I am doing. I had always planned on using a scale and a volumetric approach to give as close to accurate dosing as I can without an analytical balance (which Ill never have, lets be realistic). Actually seeing these powders however, truly drove home the necessity of measurement.. there really is so little it is almost unreal.

 

[kidklmx]

If you're not going to lay blotters or anything then it might be a good idea to make a somewhat dilute solution. Only had access to a 0.01g scale at the time and that's what I did for my volumetric measurement, just to be safe. Also note that nasally it sucks much less to dose these chemicals

 

[bloodshed344]

Today I came home to a mysterious yellow package from an unknown printing company.
Opened it up to find two 250mg quantites of 2c-i and 2c-e. I am delighted as I only made the order Thursday night.

I had VERY little idea of just how much 250mg actually looked like, but I can tell you, this amount is pretty small. I've known people into coke who would balk at the size of the lines I could make.. and this is 250mg. I can only imagine what the 10mg of 25i will look like when I get it. I had semi-entertained the idea of eyeing out 15-20mg but no way is it going to happen.

Now the odd thing I noticed is that there appears to be more 2c-e, 1.5x the amount of 2c-i in fact.. now my chem is really, really rusty and I only took it up to grade 12 but these are the apparent molar masses: 2c-i 307.13 g/mol, 2c-e 209.2859 g/mol. They should be the HCl form, so I know that changes the masses slightly, but it should be an even change for both no?

Now I really need to reread how mols work but the numbers are the reverse of what I see in the bags, with 2c-i's g/mol being ~1.5x higher than 2c-e's. How does this affect the density of the powder?

In any case, the sciency stuff aside, it is apparent that there should probably be a difference in the visual quantity of the powders, but it is also apparent that I need a scale to verify that this is the case.. and it is also very apparent that attempting to eye out any quantity would be foolish if not futile. I've noticed the 2c-e really likes to stick to the bag, so that brings up another little question: just how do you guys go about handling these substances? Since they stick to anything they touch, it seems losses could add up.. its the sticky tape effect, touch it with one utensil and use another to scrape the first utensil off and you go back and forth.. This is actually a glaring problem in my head for when it comes to handling the 25i - yes I plan a volumetric approach, but I know 1mg is supposedly what fits on a pin head if that (and I believe it now).. if any of that sticks to the bags then yikes.. major losses :s

You can always lick the bags. #beenthere

(I'm so fucking gay.)

 

[infantannihilator]

If you're not going to lay blotters or anything then it might be a good idea to make a somewhat dilute solution. Only had access to a 0.01g scale at the time and that's what I did for my volumetric measurement, just to be safe. Also note that nasally it sucks much less to dose these chemicals

I'm not going to lay blotters no, however I have insulin syringes I am going to use for dosing so I am as accurate as possible. In another thread a user mentioned to just cut the end off the protective cap so the liquid can shoot out but you wont stab yourself. I tested this weekend with .1 and .2ml quantities of water and experienced no drip. So with the nbome I will dissolve into 2ml of vodka (measured with the syringe) and go from there. Will do similar with the 2c-x's, however I am not as overly concerned to be off 1-2mg either way with them.. theyre pretty well known and I know I wont end up killing myself, and plus they're oral so I dont have to worry about concentrating to ensure I dont get a drip.

You can always lick the bags. #beenthere

(I'm so fucking gay.)

#yolo

 

[bloodshed344]

Oh wait, I just realized you were talking about 25I sticking to the bag. I actually scraped that off the bag with a straw and snorted where it was at. This sounds exceedingly dangerous, but somehow I never got very strong effects doing it this way.

In other words, I don't recommend it. However the texture of these substances is problematic, so there needs to be some kind of method to get it off the sides of the bag. On a somewhat related note I had some 25C once that was only in pebble-like completely perfectly spherical chunks. It was so easy to handle! It didn't stick at all, completely different than the texture of any other substance I've ever seen, including another batch of 25C (which looked the same as 2C-E)

 

[kidklmx]

^With 2C-E a difference of 2mg can mean a world of difference but yeah, your scale should be fine enough

And in case of bloodshed344, you only yolo once

 

[bloodshed344]

^With 2C-E a difference of 2mg can mean a world of difference but yeah, your scale should be fine enough

And in case of bloodshed344, you only yolo once

I so wish there were signatures on this forum, that would go into it. Thanks man.

Also, with me and 2C-E 2 mg makes very little difference... 2C-P however. I think 2C-P for me is how 2C-E is for most people.
But yes, you only YOLO once guys. Don't go trusting your dealers measurements or chemical names or anything. Every new batch should be treated as an unknown chemical, and allergy tested.

I haven't followed this advice, but I will say that you should!

 

[infantannihilator]

^With 2C-E a difference of 2mg can mean a world of difference but yeah, your scale should be fine enough

And in case of bloodshed344, you only yolo once

Yeah, Ive read 2mg can make a world of difference..

With that said, at least with the same scale and attempting to recreate similar conditions during measurement each time, I should be able to keep the doses fairly consistent with each other even if they are all off 2mg one way or the other

as to the you only yolo once - my head is full of fuck

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I always found that the 2c chemicals by weight look larger than most other drugs.
They're very fine light powder.
But with the steep response curve if 2c chemicals a scale or volumetric dosing is a must.
Volumetric is my favourite as snorting 2c chemicals is by far the most uncomfortable thing I've ever done, and that even includes violent diarrhea in public restrooms