birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
Zephyn said:I did mention it, however most often stem cells are derived by insemination donated eggs in a lab, not from abortions
I was not aware of that.
Zephyn said:I did mention it, however most often stem cells are derived by insemination donated eggs in a lab, not from abortions
Sorry, Jess, but if you have had to fight every, second of everyday to have the right to your own body you may understand the pro-choice side. You live by and respect your beliefs, I am fine with that. But please Do Not inflick them on everyone else who may not follow your High and Mighty position?. You are on the side that is doing all the oppression ,Another reason this frustrates me, is I feel I understand where pro choicers are coming from. I respect that they believe in good faith that the fetus doesn't have a right to continued existence for reasons they agree with.
I don't begrudge pro choicers for fighting for what they think is right, I just wish that respect were more frequently reciprocated.
JessFR said:Iceman1216 said:Do Not inflick them on everyone else who may not follow your High and Mighty position?
Since we’re parsing terms, for a pregnancy to be successful, the fertilized egg has to implant in the uterus. If it doesn’t, it’s just expelled and it’s estimated that this happens about 1/3 of the time (some estimates are higher) after an egg is fertilized.
Implantation in the uterus happens six to twelve days after fertilization. Many of you are likely family with ectopic pregnancy, which is where a fertilized implants outside the uterus, like in the Fallopian tube. The fetus is removed because it is highly unlikely to survive and very likely to kill the mother by causing her to hemorrhage.
So this whole idea that viable life begins when sperm hits an egg is inaccurate and somewhat dramatic to me.
I think you’re applying it incorrectly. A miscarriage is defined as “the spontaneous, premature expulsion of a nonviable embryo or fetus from the uterus.”I am aware of this. But a fertilized egg failing to implant is little different to a miscarriage, other than that it's more common. It is out of our control.
People also often die of cancers and other diseases out of out control.
That people die and we can't prevent it does not invalidate the value of life. This is already pretty widely accepted among pro choicers for humans after they're born, I'm just applying it earlier.
I think you’re applying it incorrectly. A miscarriage is defined as “the spontaneous, premature expulsion of a nonviable embryo or fetus from the uterus.”
A non-implanted fertilized egg passes through the uterus, but it’s not expelled from it. Miscarriage implies implantation has occurred.
I do comprehend it.Please, one you guys on the pro choice side, at least tell me you comprehend what I'm getting at here?
I don’t particularly find being pro choice to be a moral position. I think science supports it as a viable (bad pun unintentionalYou build moral positions on top of a few basic assumptions.
I believe the rights of the woman who is pregnant supersede the rights of the fetus. I don’t believe this because of a moral value, I believe because of neuroscience and developmental biology."I don't believe the fetus has rights because the fetus doesn't have rights" essentially is.
I agree that there are too many people, and that there are so many kids no one wants. It’s why the foster care system is alive and well in America.There are so many humans, too many. And there are already far too many unwanted children for them to all be adopted. Anyone who doesn't feel like they could raise a child effectively, and decides to get an abortion, is being responsible, IMO. There are already SO many kids born who no one wants
I believe it is not until it successfully implants and even then it isn’t independently alive. It’s alive the way a virus that has infected a cell is alive, to me.You're saying a fertilized embryo isn't alive?
Well, in the case of rape, who gets pushed in the water?You can't be forced to render aid to someone drowning (at least in most American jurisprudence, there are other countries with different views), but you can be held responsible if you pushed them in the water to start with.
I really don’t see abortion as a moral issue until the fetus is independently viable, and even then I think the woman’s rights supersede the rights of the fetus. But I could be convinced that third trimester abortion should not be allowed in most cases (although most cases of third trimester abortion have to with fetuses that are not viable and sparing the parents some agony. I’ve posted extensively about this before, so I’m not going through it again).My point is that you can't say you don't think the fetus being a life or not is relevant, because regardless of if you realize it its virtually certain that you are basing your moral beliefs off that underlying opinion.
On a lighter note, I was actually forced to defend the position that using stem cells derived from frozen fertilized embryos (which I don’t consider alive) is immoral. We had a debate in class, and I had to defend this position to a bunch of uber liberals. I didn’t win but I got over 1/3 of the votes, which no one expected.Which is a whole issue of its own for people to debate.
I believe the rights of the woman who is pregnant supersede the rights of the fetus. I don’t believe this because of a moral value, I believe because of neuroscience and developmental biology.
Science does say one is far more neurologically developed and able to live a non-parasitic existence. The idea that an adult has more rights than a fetus could be considered a moral position, I guess. But there’s one hell of a good objective case for it.
It seems to me that using the extent of neurological development (almost none vs highly advanced) as an objective determinant makes more sense scientifically, whereas using a somewhat vague definition of “living” is much more subjective.
But the fetus isn’t autonomous. Even at 22 weeks + until birth it’s not self-sufficient. It depends on the woman entirely for oxygen and nutrients and a protective environment.