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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

If everyone considered what you all do life, stem cell research would fall to the way side. Is it life when an egg is fertilized in the lab?
 
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MsDiz said:
I’m pro choice but after the 12 week mark I really find it hard to see someone go through that procedure. For both the woman and the foetus. I had a miscarriage when I was 20 and I didn’t know I was pregnant and it was absolutely traumatic. Even though it was early term I still had to go through a D&C and I was treated abysmally by the nursing staff. (After a strongly worded letter and long drawn out complaint procedure I got a lengthy apology from the staff/hospital involved.)

I watched my son at 12 weeks on an ultrasound swimming and moving about and he was very real to me. I do find late term abortions hard to accept. After 25 weeks the foetus could survive with medical intervention easily. It’s something I have issue with but if the mother can not carry on with that pregnancy then she should not be forced to. I think more should be done to support women who find out they are pregnant and let them access abortion easier. Ireland has a real issue with this. Women were forced to travel to UK for abortions. The abortion pill was handed out (illegally) by some organisations though. Abortion has just been legalised last year but there is still a big push back. Fuck the Catholic Church is all I can say to that.

In regards to disability though. Where do you draw the line? I believe disabled people add to the world just as much as able bodied people. Probably more in fact when taking into account those with autism. I find it really jarring to read what you write about disabled people @TripSitterNZ. On one side you’re advocating for a foetus that can’t survive outside the mother but saying people with disabilities shouldn’t exist and advocating for genetic engineering. Like fucking hell. Pick a moral and stick to it?
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While I don't agree with you on abortion, at least in so much as I don't think it's morally OK and is something we should try to stop, if not by banning it (and as I've said before I am generally opposed to this as the "solution"), then by trying harder to prevent unwanted pregnancies happening.

That said, you're right, fuck the catholic church. Bunch of hypocrites. They supposedly oppose abortion yet seem to do everything they can to make more people feel they need them.

I find it hard to reconcile how anyone can be both opposed to abortion AND opposed to contraception.

You clearly aren't that opposed to abortion if you deliberately try to create more unintended pregnancies for people to abort.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
If your going to get a abortion for a bullshit reason then you should just get your ovaries cut and never have kids ever. People with such disrespect for life even at its earliest conception imo abortions' should not be performed any later than the 15th week.

The fact some women have such a careless regard to a life they are carrying either shows they never been a mother should never be a mother and should just go get their ovaries cut if they think a fetus deservers no right. Abortion is legalized murder at a certain point.
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Who are you to judge whats a bullshit reason man?
I'm really not tryin to get worked up, but it's not fucking growing inside you, is it?

Sorry. Sorry.
But seriously, what. the. fuck.
Of all the people here, you're one of the last I'd think crusading these oppressive ideals.

It might be that I have sisters.
And respect womens bodies.

If I was a woman I'd make sure to get as many abortions I could, for the Fuck of it.

It takes around 18 months for a child to develop a sense of self.
An abortion is removing growing tissue, like a fucking cancer.


So fucking glad I'm getting a vasectomy in a few weeks, so I'll never have to burden myself with the sin of creating another member to this collective kinship of suffering.


Goddamn, I need another Valium.

Again, please don't take it personal, the shit I just ranted. But the fact that this is somehow still an issue in 2021 is fucking nauseating.

I fucking hate Sweden, but at least here nobody questions each individuals right over their body.
And don't you fucking dare call a beansized blobb a "person". 😶
 
This entire thing boils down to, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Why you feel you can tell others what they can and cannot due based upon admittedly controversial topics and not something cut and dry like homicide.

Not to mention the way a lot of you are presenting your arguments is something that would likely seriously trigger someone who has been traumatized by abortion.
 
pulverstaden said:
But seriously, what. the. fuck.
Of all the people here, you're one of the last I'd think crusading these oppressive ideals.
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Wait what? It doesn't surprise me at all, TripSitterNZ requently states opinions that I think would make nazi Germany blush. :P

Also, I'd hope I'd be up there as someone you'd be among the most surprised to learn is pro life, given I've also gone off on several feminist rants against men and the patriarchy and anti trump anti republican and all sorts of liberal shit. :P
 
JessFR said:
Wait what? It doesn't surprise me at all, TripSitterNZ requently states opinions that I think would make nazi Germany blush. :P

Also, I'd hope I'd be up there as someone you'd be among the most surprised to learn is pro life, given I've also gone off on several feminist rants against men and the patriarchy and anti trump anti republican and all sorts of liberal shit. :P
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I imagine you might be frazzled by the post im planning on toxic feminity then. (And im a feminist)
 
Zephyn said:
This entire thing boils down to, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Why you feel you can tell others what they can and cannot due based upon admittedly controversial topics and not something cut and dry like homicide.
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Again this frustrates me so much.

I mean come on, you wouldn't say "if you don't believe in murdering your 4 year old, don't murder yours, but leave other parents alone!"

If course not. The only difference with abortion is that you don't believe the fetus has rights while a 4 year old does.

Don't get me wrong here you're certainly allowed to believe that and argue for that position. But please try and see why those of us who don't hold that belief can't accept the argument of "if you don't like abortions just don't get one". Anymore than you could the above hypothetical involving 4 year Olds.

Again it's arguing your position by already presuming the correctness of your position. That is not in any way persuasive.

For us to accept the "just don't get one if you think a fetus life has a right to live" argument would require us already believing that it does NOT have that right. It's a circular argument. Arguing itself using its existing premise.

I've said before that I'm not interested in fighting to ban abortion. That said I can understand why other prolifers feel compelled to. In truth taking the position not to ban it is something I continue to struggle with.
 
Consciousness. I don't see how someone seemingly intelligent like yourself can't see that the lack of self awareness is a HUGE difference between a 4 year old and a fetus. Its why some users mentioned its more wrong for us to eat meat like veal, or to squish a spider. Why is developing human (pre-)life more inherently valuable than other actually sentient beings?

And didn't you already mention murder is the wrong word? Seems your opinion changes depending on who you are talking to, no offense
 
Zephyn said:
Consciousness. I don't see how someone seemingly intelligent like yourself can't see that the lack of self awareness is a HUGE difference between a 4 year old and a fetus. Its why some users mentioned its more wrong for us to eat meat like veal, or to squish a spider.

And didn't you already mention murder is the wrong word? Seems your opinion changes depending on who you are talking to, no offense
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No, if my opinion seems inconsistent I'm probably explaining it poorly. I'm not sure why my saying murder is the wrong word is inconsistent though.

Putting aside for a moment why a fetus should have a right to live, what I'm trying to convey to you and others right now is why the "if you don't like abortions don't get one" argument just doesn't work.

If consciousness were considered the defining characteristic of the right to continued existence, then yes a 4 year old would have it and an early term fertilized embryo would not.

But that is why it is pointless to argue that if you don't agree with abortions don't get one, because we can't do that unless we believe a fetus doesn't have a right to continued life, at least that early. And if we believed that, we would be pro choice anyway.

Your belief system sees a difference between the 4 year old and the fetus, ours doesn't, at least not enough of one.

Because of that, that's why we can't just let everyone decide on their own conscience if they wanna get an abortion or not. For the same reason you wouldn't let a mother kill her 4 year old.

I understand that you consider those different enough that one is OK and the other not, but we don't. That is what we're arguing.

What I'm getting at here is that that argument is not one worth making in an abortion debate because by definition we obviously can't accept it.

If you feel some of my arguments are inconsistent by all means point them out and I'll try and clarify what my position is.
 
Whether or not it is common depends on the circumstances. It is common for any mom hedgehog to eat her babies if there is a significant disturbance in her environment. It is not common for them to eat their babies when it has been quiet and peaceful.

Hedgehogs should not eat their babies at all. They eat their babies when they are disturbed and fear for the babies’ lives—the nutrients being absorbed into her body is better than the nutrients going to a predator, after all.
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This is common even in monkeys. If we are to.follow the order of nature, @TripSitterNZ then even post birth abortions should be legal. (Even i disagree with that)

Did I just win the argument?
 
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Zephyn said:
I imagine you might be frazzled by the post im planning on toxic feminity then. (And im a feminist)
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Well, I'd certainly agree that feminism, like all generally positive political movements, is not so positive or enlightened that it can't be made terrible by extremists.

But extremist feminists don't have a monopoly in defining feminism.
 
Another reason this frustrates me, is I feel I understand where pro choicers are coming from. I respect that they believe in good faith that the fetus doesn't have a right to continued existence for reasons they agree with.

I don't begrudge pro choicers for fighting for what they think is right, I just wish that respect were more frequently reciprocated.
 
Buzz Lightbeer said:
Well, say like you had sex a week ago and it turns out you're pregnant, so you're stuck with the baby?
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Well as I've said, I'm not prepared to fight to ban abortions. There's a part of me that fears this is political cowardice on my part, but... I'm just not prepared to fight to bring such suffering into people's lives, even if I believe it's ultimately for the greater good. My conscience just won't let me.

If other pro lifers want to do that, fine, but after giving it a great deal of thought I just can't bring myself to do that.

So, to remain consistent with my beliefs, I instead try to argue that we should do more to provide access to contraception. Provide it for free in as many places as possible. And that we should support more programs designed to reduce sexual assault (both things we should be doing regardless of their benefit to preventing abortion).

With that in mine though, in terms of my personal moral beliefs, I believe life begins at conception and I think deliberately aborting a pregnancy at any point after conception is a very ethically questionable proposition.

If I were in that situation today I don't believe I would feel morally able to have an abortion if I found out I was pregnant no.
 
JessFR said:
Wait what? It doesn't surprise me at all, TripSitterNZ requently states opinions that I think would make nazi Germany blush. :p

Also, I'd hope I'd be up there as someone you'd be among the most surprised to learn is pro life, given I've also gone off on several feminist rants against men and the patriarchy and anti trump anti republican and all sorts of liberal shit. :p
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Anytime ANY women is pro-life, anti-choice, I'm baffled!

Being against abortion and being a feminist creates a dissonance in my head.
I'm out. Y'all people are kray-kray.

Look. You broke my head.
 
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