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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

JessFR said:
I am right because I am right.

There's no debate or intelligent discussion to be had so long as this is what the "arguments" are.

Most of this thread rather than try and argue why I believe a fetus is a life deserving of continued existence (better not omit saying that again), I've been trying to just get pro choicers to comprehend the pro life position so they could at least make argument that aren't immediately dismissed simply because they are essentially "the fetus doesn't have because it doesn't have rights".

Saddly even in that I've not been very successful. This is why a lot of the time I ignore abortion debates entirely.
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Maybe you're not as right as you think you are :p
 
deficiT said:
The crux of your argument is that you believe life begins at conception, and that you should defend that life.

That kind of implies that the people who wish to end that life are doing something bad or committing some atrocity, instead of a private medical procedure.
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It implies that they are killing a human life. Which indeed I believe they are.

That does NOT mean they are commuting murder of an atrocity. In law this is called mens rea. Which is the mental state you have in the commission of the crime.

If you don't believe a fetus has a right to live, you are still, in my opinion, making a horrible mistake and ending a human life, or close enough. But there's no intent, the mens rea to calm it murder and judge it in those terms doesn't exist.
 
Xorkoth said:
I respect your right to see it the way that you do, I am just trying to express why I disagree with the way you see it.
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same. I don't think i've said anything unreasonable or illogical.
 
Xorkoth said:
I don't think I'm being pedantic. I think we can probably both agree that a mosquito is alive, and that it deserves continuity of existence. But there are times when that desire is outweighed by greater needs... if the mosquito is sucking your blood, you smash it. I support killing mosquitos individually when there is reason to, but I don't support wantonly seeking out and destroying mosquitos for the hell of it. I feel roughly the same about embryos.
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I blow off mosquitos.
 
I'm trying to say that just because an embryo or fetus is alive, doesn't mean it has the same considerations as humans in post-birth states of development. I doubt anyone is really trying to say that they aren't alive. But not all life is of equal consideration. Literally all people kill things, or consume life forms that have been killed, every single day.
 
deficiT said:
The crux of your argument is that you believe life begins at conception, and that you should defend that life.
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I haven't even really made my argument. I haven't gotten that far. In still stuck arguing why the argument to just "don't get an abortion if you don't believe in it" is itself already assuming a pro choice opinion.

I see little point in arguing why I think a fetus has a right to live if pro choicers can't even see the theoretical consequences of that belief.
 
Xorkoth said:
I'm trying to say that just because an embryo or fetus is alive, doesn't mean it has the same considerations as humans in post-birth states of development. I doubt anyone is really trying to say that they aren't alive. But not all life is of equal consideration. Literally all people kill things, or consume life forms that have been killed, every single day.
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But there's little point in saying that. We all already understand that.

I've repeatedly implies that it's not that the embryo is alive that in itself gives it the right to continued existence.

Noone is saying it's not a life but they are saying it's not a life entitled to continued existence. Which is the phrase or variants of it that I've used most if the time.
 
JessFR said:
But there's little point in saying that. We all already understand that.

I've repeatedly implies that it's not that the embryo is alive that in itself gives it the right to continued existence.

Noone is saying it's not a life but they are saying it's not a life entitled to continued existence. Which is the phrase or variants of it that I've used most if the time.
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To be clear, im saying it's not a life and not alive, at least up until a certain point.
 
pulverstaden said:
Perfect - I have some damp drywall to help cover the cracks :D
I do understand, and sorry if I come off as a rabied-diseased chupacabra.
That's why I'm opting out. You're never gonna convince me and I'm never gonna convince you.
It's just gonna be a semantic pissing contest and I'm as mature as the fetuses you want to save when discussing these matters.
Didin't mean to get on your ass about being a feminist AND pro-choice. As a dude I should shut the fuck up.

I don't agree, but I respect your opinion. I just can't respect mens opinions in this question - yes, very paradoxically.

God do I long for that vasectomy - I never thought I'd look forward to having someone snip shit in my scrotum.

Soldier on!
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Honestly at this point I don't think it should even matter if there's any chance of anyone changing their mind.

It seems to me that honest and well intentioned debate would be worthwhile if only to help both sides become more familiar with what the other side actually believes and what arguments are useful and what arguments at circular.
 
Xorkoth said:
I don't think I'm being pedantic. I think we can probably both agree that a mosquito is alive, and that it deserves continuity of existence. But there are times when that desire is outweighed by greater needs... if the mosquito is sucking your blood, you smash it. I support killing mosquitos individually when there is reason to, but I don't support wantonly seeking out and destroying mosquitos for the hell of it. I feel roughly the same about embryos.
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If not pedantic, perhaps redundant is a better word.

For the record I don't support killing mosquitos, I don't even support killing cockroaches, I don't support killing any life if it can reasonably be avoided.
 
JessFR said:
If not pedantic, perhaps redundant is a better word.

For the record I don't support killing mosquitos, I don't even support killing cockroaches, I don't support killing any life if it can reasonably be avoided.
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I blow off mosquitos, but if i had a pool, id destroy their eggs.
 
Zephyn said:
I blow off mosquitos, but if i had a pool, id destroy their eggs.
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Murderer! :(

I really do hate killing animals though, any animals. Even the ones everyone hates.

I'm pro life :)
Like legit pro life, pro cockroach life, anti death penalty, the works. :D

I am OK with euthanasia though, in some circumstances anyway, so I guess I'm not 100% pro life.
 
JessFR said:
Murderer! :(

I really do hate killing animals though, any animals. Even the ones everyone hates.

I'm pro life :)
Like legit pro life, pro cockroach life, anti death penalty, the works. :D

I am OK with euthanasia though, in some circumstances anyway, so I guess I'm not 100% pro life.
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For the record, I too dislike killing things. Maybe has something to do with having a shit mom, but I just hate to think of kids growing up with nothing, and having unloving or unfit parents.
 
JessFR said:
Honestly at this point I don't think it should even matter if there's any chance of anyone changing their mind.

It seems to me that honest and well intentioned debate would be worthwhile if only to help both sides become more familiar with what the other side actually believes and what arguments are useful and what arguments at circular.
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I do get your intentions. But I have to ask;
doesn't it make this whole thread circular if nobody believes in changing their minds?
Just curious.

I'm an antinatalist, so in my view, creating a life is worse than taking one. And I truly DO believe that my thesis of knock'em-as-they-slide-out is valid.
That little hairless monkey isn't exactly aware of anything when pushed out.

Seriously though (the Valiums kicking now), if I knocked a girl up, I'd go with whatever her decision was. My worst nightmare is having a kid, but if I dip n' spit, I gotta be ready for the consequences.
I would never tell someone to scrape out what I put there. If she'd ask, I'd of course say FUCK. NO.
But that shit isn't gonna grow inside me, ripping me open from balls to rectum in a flood of shit, piss and blood - and if it would be safe for the mother, abortion after six months wouldn't bother me.

So for the sake of argument, can you explain your thought process behind it all? When do you believe the fetus becomes sentient? A person?
How is it wrong to deprive it of something its never had? And how do you reason around the fact that life is a string of unfulfilled desires?
The state of world? We call our specie the wise ape, but we're slaves to our biology.

May I ask if you're religious?

Also, pro-life equals pro-pain, pro-suffering, pro-disease, pro-chlamydia, pro-Ben Affleck-movies, pro-wage slavery, pro-constant struggle..?
 
This is by far the most frustrating topic in all of politics. There are a few fundamental truths that I think both sides ignore.

It is horrific to say the government should have absolute control over a woman's body.

It is horrific to say a pregnancy ought to be terminated up until the point of birth.

There is no clear definitive answer to when a fetus stops being a "cluster of cells" or a "parasite" and starts being a "life". These are all subjective things. If you want to be literal, yes, a fetus cannot survive on its own and is therefore a parasite, but there are also handicapped adults and children who cannot survive on their own. They are parasites in every sense of the word...feeding off the healthy in order to survive. Should they be subject to termination as they were in Nazi Germany ?

on the other hand... are you really going to tell me a woman who is only a couple months pregnant ought to be FORCED to carry to term a child they neither want or can support ? How is that a benefit to anyone? Use the resources to provide for the children who are already here.

The issue is similar to me as the sexual age of consent. If the legal age of consent is, say, 17... is a 20 year old you has sex with a 16 year old a predator in the same way as a 50 year old who has sex with a 13 year old? Of course not. One of those is much more disturbing than the other. All kinds of factors go in to how we judge people on that issue.

The fact remains that for legal purposes we NEED to have an unambiguous, clear set of laws that we as a society agree to abide by. I just absolutely cannot imagine a functional society where a woman is FORCED to bear children. No matter what the circumstances. That is just too much for me. I used to consider myself very much "pro life" but I'm not so sure that applies to me anymore.
 
JessFR said:
Do you think I don't care about that?
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No I don't think that, I'm just saying that is one thing that primarily motivates my pro-choice position. Some people just really aren't ready for kids and/or shouldn't have kids they are going to neglect or mistreat. I'm willing to disregard whatever value the life of the fetus is perceived to have if it means a kid isn't going to be born into a bad situation.
 
JessFR said:
you can't just say "when does life begin" is irrelevant. Whether you realize it or not, you are in some way using that judgment to form the rest of your opinions.
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I mean, this is what everyone does to form their own opinions to some degree.

Where in your opinion do you weigh that sometimes bringing a human life into this world is the worse of the two options?
 
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