Lysergamides Timothy Leary and Ram Dass

[Chris Timothy]

only pedos hang out with outspoken pedos like that.

Of course I understand your point, TripSitterNZ. But just the fact you're talking about it in inflammatory language gives away you're refusing to look deeply into the mechanics at play. And deeply in this context also means compassionately, something an analytical psychedelic like LSD can miss unless explicitly moved into through technique.

Of course, I speak the language of psychology, not politics. I used the term "deranged" as to improvise a middle ground, making up for brevity with vagueness, but that doesn't do things justice either. These men were carrying a convoluted emotional energy highly sensitive to context. And contexts shift, through time, through generations, even through various stages of an individual's life. It gives rise to the most disparate forms, desperate pharms, tall buildings with crosses, and yes, war and politics too.

What is one to do when the last time they felt truly alive was in childhood? Suicide is the first answer that pops up into people's mind, invariably. But we're here on bluelight to explore non-violent remedies too. And just like with any disease there are remedies imaginable. That's also one of the last things I said to Cosmic Charlie, that alas sometimes one lives in a time where one not only gets the plague, but on top of it is demonized for it, when the environment just doesn't have the love and intelligence available to see it for what it actually, deeply is.

And it still pains me that this might have been one of the thoughts Cosmic Charlie had when he took his final trip. I hope we can grow beyond that as a bluelight family, TripSitterNZ, for the sake of harm reduction. And for the sake of being human.

 

[burn out]

I'm troubled to read all these allegations about such important and influential thinkers. It is possible, IMHO, to separate the art from the artist, the music from the musician and the philosophy from the philosopher. People in the past may have acted in ways that we do not consider proper in the current (and in many ways more enlightened) cultural climate. We shouldn't discount their contributions.
Please take the time to fully read Leary's short volume Turn on, Tune in, Drop Out.
Please take the time to read Ginsberg's work as well as Ram Dass. Listen to Ram Dass' meditations - easily available on a streaming service like Spotify.
It is possible to accept that they (like everyone) had flaws; and yet their work remains significant.
The world is changed by people with jagged personalities.

It has nothing to do with the current cultural climate. Pedophilia was no more acceptable then than it is now, if anything it is more acceptable now.

As for separating their work from them as people, you would have a valid point if this thread had for example asked about the merits of Timothy Leary's contributions to the field of psychology. However, the thread specifically asked about peoples thoughts on these men as figures in a general sense, meaning their character is fair game.

In terms of their work I've read a lot from both and have not come to the conclusion that it's all that valuable. I read that Leary himself later in his life stated that he didn't think a lot of the books he wrote were all that good. As for Ram Dass, I'll admit to liking some of his talks and how he comes across but I also have considerable doubts about him. For example, the guy he wrote about in Be Here Now (not his guru, but the guy he was traveling in India with whom he made out to be some very spiritual yogi) came out and said that Ram Dass misrepresented him in the book and he was not an accomplished yogi but just some guy who liked smoking opium and hashish and chasing women.

Ginsberg just gives me the creeps and I have no desire to read any more of his poetry than the small sample I've already read.

 

[JackARoe]

As for Ram Dass, I'll admit to liking some of his talks and how he comes across but I also have considerable doubts about him. For example, the guy he wrote about in Be Here Now (not his guru, but the guy he was traveling in India with whom he made out to be some very spiritual yogi) came out and said that Ram Dass misrepresented him in the book and he was not an accomplished yogi but just some guy who liked smoking opium and hashish and chasing women.

Bhagavan Das! The young kid he followed in India who was from California. Go youtube and look him up. Still way out there but glad he is doing his thing. I have a friend that knows him. But in India at that time all travelers seemed to have a drug kit, it was mentioned in Be Here Now. Uppers, downers, etc..

The spiritual teacher and teachings went from Be Here Now to even that follow up book, where Ram Dass had doubts his guru even took the acid when he gets back to the states. Then the guru contacted him to bring more "medicine" when he comes back to India. He goes back to India, his Guru Neel Karoli carefully places the pills in his mouth to show him he takes them. Then as a prank Neel Karoli acts like he is going mad just to screw with Ram Dass but laughed as a joke. (so I guess prankful humor is not totally missing.....hmmm). But that was the last we all heard till the internet. Those are the stories.

Now if people here have literature for us to read link it. By all means criticize and add thoughts. Admittedly I do get defensive about people only being distant spectators but experts on other people's psychologies. I would probably defend you all if you could not answer. Just my nature.

And c'mon, the Leary/Gordon Liddy tour in the 80's was hilarious.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Probably we the reason evolution kept intuition. Not that it always work's but at least you can train it. Once had a meeting with a company dr. and a someone from the complaint's departement.

The difference between those two was bizar. With the complaint's counseler the dr. coul kinda bearebly kept her posture. Hiding behind that counseler. But her face spoke we lie and mistake all over.

Then the counseler left to make a copie of my file. The reason I was there. Soon as the door closed I fully went on that dr., who was untrained in lying or keeping cool. She cracked within minutes, when she tried to lie it was allover her face . I kept going and she blew all open about that I was actually right but powerless.

The prove I found later in my files. Back to the story soon as the counseler came back unaware what I learned. Bussines as usual. To bad that unlike a movie, where you would sue and wealthy paid for their misconduct, here the employer and top only have those options.

But the topic was problematic charismatic figures, Sogyal Rinpoche that Bhoedist guy that had some ghostwriter's writing his edition of the Tibetan Book of Death. Molesting and abusing the people that worshipped him. Meanwhile in secrecy being a miljonair. That changes ones view on a book. I read tiil the scene he describes how his master enlightens another student by physical violence.

 

[gordonliddy]

I will give that I seem to remember a story that Burroughs was a member of NAMBLA. Heard that before BL. Yet the guy is not here to say if he was or not. I hate grave digging or digging up bones. I would probably come to everyone's defense the same here too.

As kooky as they were they added to the psychedelic history a lot more than their critics. I for one like Be Here Now. And unless you were around in the 70's you don't know the positive impact that book had to some people.

I like when Leary and Ram Dass made fun of each other later in life. They were friends that had different paths but could jive.

Hey Buddy!

I think there seems to be some mistake here. Burroughs had sex with a lot of kids. Ginsberg too. Leary I know nothing about. Claims about the first two aren't controversial. You might be mistaken in your beliefs about who Burroughs was, he would of scored something like a 2 on a ten point morality scale. Ginsberg might be like a 3 or a 4, my understanding is that he advocated consent based sex with children. And Ram Dass I basically have never heard of before this thread.

I'm not trying to talk you out of closing the thread...a moderator must do the needful of the moderator.

But in the case of Burroughs and Ginsberg, it would actually be controversial to claim that they weren't pedophiles. Burroughs qualified by today's standards as an actual child molester.

DM me if you need any more info, I stay away from debating stuff like this in public if only one side to the story exists.

Featured: Tim Leary

 

[JackARoe]

Claims about the first two aren't controversial. You might be mistaken in your beliefs about who Burroughs was, he would of scored something like a 2 on a ten point morality scale. Ginsberg might be like a 3 or a 4, my understanding is that he advocated consent based sex with children. And Ram Dass I basically have never heard of before this thread.

Featured: Tim Leary

Haha nice pic GL! I should have known you would have a good one. I remember in the 80's when they went city to city doing some form of legal comedy act on drugs and the mind. I think they admitted to liking each other even though Liddy had Leary thrown in jail years earlier.

Burroughs I was always suspicious of as the word got around pre internet. All I know of Allen Ginsberg is the chapter in the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test where the Hells Angels come upon Woodstock (or some other affair, I have to look it up) and noticed this hairy man chanting Hari Krishna. And the Angels were like who the molly fuck is Hari Krishna? I honestly know nothing of their personal life. I know of Burroughs because pre internet we had libraries and I could read the book Naked Lunch or Junkie. That is all the info we had. A magazine article every once in a while.

The title of the thread is Tim Leary and Ram Dass though. Dass was Richard Alpert, Leary's friend who changed his name after a few trips to India. Do I think there were instances of underage sex? Yes. Just ask Steven Tyler or any other rocker back then if they did. Ask the Beatles. It was very very common place. Preying on kids is a totally different story to having underage sex.

Just wanted balance for the OP's question.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I will give that I seem to remember a story that Burroughs was a member of NAMBLA

That was Ginsberg