Time to Give Up Catholicism ?

[rickolasnice]

The church does not condone homo-sexual acts. I think this is where people are getting confused. Sexual acts can only be performed between a man and a woman through holy Matrimony. Sexual acts as a homosexual is like having pre-marital sex, which is a mortal sin. What the pope is saying is that, if science concludes that people can be "born gay", then it is not up to us to discourage them from practicing Catholicism. In other words, people can be gay and be attracted to men, if that is what they like, but acting under those conditions is in no way acceptable. Does what I'm saying make any sense to you?

Jesus' only beef with homosexuality is that it would be fornication.. Sex outside marriage.

Tell me again why gay marriage should be opposed?

 

[brandywine23]

Jesus' only beef with homosexuality is that it would be fornication.. Sex outside marriage.

Tell me again why gay marriage should be opposed?

Because Marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Point Blank. In order for the survival of mankind, a man and a woman have sex to make children. Marriage gives them this explicit right. Marriage between gays leads to nothing, except tax breaks as "married filing jointly."

 

[rickolasnice]

Marriage can be between whatever people want..

You think Judaism was the first religion / tradition to invent marriage?

The spread of Christianity made the world take a step back.. not progress forward..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

If your God of the OT defines what is right and wrong then i guess it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery or to beat your slave so long as he doesn't die within 2 days.. or to put to death believers of other religions, fortune tellers, people that curse their parents or homosexuals..

So do your godly duty and murder for his rules.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

By the way.. men and women don't need to be married to have children.

 

[bit_pattern]

Because Marriage can only be between a man and a woman.

Where does God actually say that in the Bible?

Marriage between gays leads to nothing, except tax breaks as "married filing jointly."

"And Jesus sayeth, marriage is a holy tax covenant between one man and one woman and the sinners doth say 'but what about the tax breaks from Caesar?' and jesus sayeth, 'tax breaks are only available for one man and one woman, except in circumstances whereby a man doth be a job creatoreth"
-- Republicans 4:34

 

[brandywine23]

Not exactly sure what you guys are trying to get at... but to make things clear, Catholics do not take the Old Testament literally. Don't confuse this with other Christians, who do. The Bible is a good form of literature to follow in thought and deed, but the literal translation should not be taken at face value. Catholics believe in tradition as it has been passed down from Jesus to his apostles, through teachings in which Peter started the Church. The traditional aspect is where Marriage between a man and a woman becomes relevant. I do not find myself quoting Bible passages though, I am not highly educated in Scripture, but I am sure there are people out there who can show you. I would suggest talking to a Theologian or local priest.

 

[rickolasnice]

I told you.. Jesus only mentions homosexuality being a sin through fornication..

The homophobic nonsense comes from the OT.

For some reason theists will conclude that when jesus refers fornication he equates it to homosexual sex.. it doesn't mean that.. it means sex outside of marriage.. always has and always will.

Fornication is generally consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other

I could dig up the verses to which Jesus mentions fornication but i cba..

I'd suggest doing a little research into In Matthew 8:5–13 and Luke 7:1–10.. focussing on the word pais.

 

[Xorkoth]

Because Marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Point Blank. In order for the survival of mankind, a man and a woman have sex to make children. Marriage gives them this explicit right. Marriage between gays leads to nothing, except tax breaks as "married filing jointly."

You think homosexual couples marrying and not being able to have children is going to cause us to die out? There are far, far too many people on the planet already. The more people that don't have kids, the better. And homosexual couples will adopt more often which is an immensely needed thing, due to the number of parentless children already born into the world. It makes more sense to develop restrictions for marriage needing to result in children when you consider that those verses were written during a time when the planet was not overpopulated in the least, and many children died before growing up. That is no longer the case.

And I'll just touch on the "right" to have children only through marriage thing. Humans have the right to have children, biologically. They do not need religion to withhold and grant that right.

 

[methamaniac]

^^
Who gives them this "right"?
At BEST you could say man gives woman right and woman gives man right.
Logically, man doesnt give man right and woman doesnt give woman right.
If they did, you woudnt get very far.
Man and woman and birth are all mutually inclusive.
You DONT have to believe this, but dont get mad at the person for pointing out logic when you need an opposite sex to reproduce.
You can live any lifestyle you choose,
the choice is yours by definition.
I believe everybody struggles with lust and fornification.

 

[Dystopia35]

^^
Who gives them this "right"?
At BEST you could say man gives woman right and woman gives man right.
Logically, man doesnt give man right and woman doesnt give woman right.
If they did, you woudnt get very far.
Man and woman and birth are all mutually inclusive.
You DONT have to believe this, but dont get mad at the person for pointing out logic when you need an opposite sex to reproduce.
You can live any lifestyle you choose,
the choice is yours by definition.
I believe everybody struggles with lust and fornification.

Its funny, you just totally decided to ignore what xorkoth had to say. Knowing that what they said was rational, you just responded.with rhetoric and garbage. You just argue semantics. Yes of course you do need opposite sex to procreate however, there are many more straight people that gay people. Also unfortunatly many of the straight couple that birth children are not raising them or simply can't raise them. There are many gay couples that are willing to adopt these children. I see no problem with that.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm saying that if people want to have children, two people who are consenting to it, I believe it is their right to do so without any qualifications. A book or religion does not give them that right nor does it remove that right. As living creatures one of our primary directives is to reproduce and thus we have the right to do so.

I also think the whole concept and connotation of "fornication" is oppressive and controlling. Sex is one of the great joys of being a human, and to do it outside of some social institution does not mean a person is committing a negative or shameful act. To put that on people is sad, wrong and archaic.

 

[methamaniac]

Dystopia,
Im not ignoring Xorkoth's rationale. Im expanding on it. Maybe I need to clarify.

How I feel about homosexuals having children or not--adoption or otherwise--is irrelevant.
I dont need to appeal to emotion to explain "humans having the right to have children"
is only "biologicaly" guranteed by two consenting people of the opposite sex who can reproduce. Anything more than that is a privledge--a gift.

If it is two same sex individual's biological right or even choice, than that implies its soley up to them whether a child is brought into this word. Im not being sneaky with semantics, I'm defining what I am saying.
Here is an example,
what happens when somebody decides not to help them have children and no more kids to adopt?
At that point do they have a right that entitles them to sperm or an egg? Are their rights being violated if they are denied?
You could use the same scenario about opposite sex couple that cant have children.
Sorry, They dont have a right to a child either.
If someone wants to donate them sperm or egg,
the right belongs to them.

I dont dislike homosexuals,
I do have a problem when some keep pushing their rights are being denied when their not.
Privledges arent rights.
If they want to get married--up to them.
However, pushing a priest to marry them or they face jail time is where you can see my concern.
(yes, this actually recently happened)
It may look like Im being over dramatic or using extreme examples, but little swipes by by little swipes are how true rights crumble and die.
Its death by a thousand paper cuts .

 

[Xorkoth]

You're taking me too literally I think. I'm not trying to say that people who have to adopt or get sperm from somewhere else or whatever should be given legal rights to having children. I'm not talking about legal rights at all. Some people are not going to be able to have kids and that sucks for them but it happens, and I think it would be absurd to try to enforce some kind of system of laws to ensure those people get kids somehow. What I'm trying to say is that it is inappropriate of the church/organized religions to attempt to dictate the morality of your personal decision as to whether or not have kids, and when, and with whom.

I wasn't really responding to anything you said, it was as a reaction to seeing posts by brandwine.

 

[methamaniac]

^^
I wasnt actually responding to you,
more I was using your statement to illustrate a point.
Apologies if I misstated your position.

 

[rickolasnice]

What about couples who can't have children either through problems with sperm or ovaries / womb..

Do they not have a "right" to have children?

Adoption is an amazing thing.. there are more children in need of adopting than their are straight couples wanting to adopt..

 

[methamaniac]

^^^
I covered that in next to last post

 

[RichardMooner]

Because Marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Point Blank. In order for the survival of mankind, a man and a woman have sex to make children. Marriage gives them this explicit right. Marriage between gays leads to nothing, except tax breaks as "married filing jointly."

Point me to a verse where Jesus says "Don't marry people of the same sex because you can't produce offspring"........

Edit: I would also like to point out--monogamy is detrimental to the production of offspring.

Edit #2: At this point in time, overpopulation is a far bigger threat than underpopulation.

Edit #3: Same sex relationships predate Abraham by at least 400 years.