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This may piss people off but...

Hi again Dan! I'm going to have another go at this: i think we have different definitions of 'quality'. I'm not sure if this means i agree with you more or less now!
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I'm probably going to sound nitpicky to you & i'm sorry if that's the case but 'quality' is a fairly solid concept for me, so here goes. You mentioned that people's opinions of quality can differ. I, however, consider 'quality' to be the objective critique & 'opinion' to be the subjective. I don't see any reason why the 'opinion' needs to agree with the level of 'quality', in any given situation.
For example, (trying to meet on neutral ground!
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) Lindor chocolate is clearly of much higher quality than Cadbury's in terms of ingredients & production. However, i enjoy Cadbury's just as much.
This comment is not an attack on you personally, just a general observation: a lot of people seem to judge the quality of something based on their opinion of it. I know this is human nature & probably a very small & insignificant detail to most people but it's something that has always been a very important issue for me. I hate arguments but i have always felt compelled to defend anything labelled as 'crap' if i think that label is based purely on someone's opinion, even if i personally don't like it either.
Peace.
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to the crazy person, the normal one is insane
 
I like a little cheese in my diet, and dammit... I like them drum builds !!!
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What I personnally cant stand is the repetitive 'grinding' techno that the likes of Will E Tell play ad nauseum...
Peel off all those eyes and crawl into the dark...
You've poisoned all of your children to camouflage your scars...
Pray unto the splinters, pray unto your fear...
Pray your life was just a dream, the cut that never heals...
Marilyn Manson
[This message has been edited by PeterPoppa (edited 01 November 2000).]
 
I think it is all a matter of context. Some music is good for this mood, some for that mood. Anything and everything when appropriate is wonderful. Also depending on the state of your brain, and what you are under the influence of.
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You know what guys.... this reminds me of an issue that is often debated within the arts -the notion of 'excellence'.
It has so many parallels here.
The Australia Council funds art projects based on the rather nebulous, highly subjective concept of 'excellence'. It has got them into trouble again and again and again.
It seems to work well when applied to organisations like the Sydney Theatre Company, The Australian Opera, the Australian Ballet etc, but when it's applied to community based organisations like Anytown Musical Society or Just Have A Go Dance Theatre it comes to grief.
Community arts projects are no less worthy than those mentioned above but are they 'excellent'?
Perhaps, perhaps not.
It's irrelevant really.
Excellence, quality, whatever.
People decide for themselves based on their own set of criteria. It is virtually impossible for anyone or any body to set themselves up as an arbiter of 'good taste' because by definition both 'good' and 'taste' are subjective concepts.
In the end it's all simply a matter of opinion. So there!
Finn
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Hmm ok, forgeting quality for a moment here, if everyone has formed their own opinion of the music they like, then we should respect that, regardless of own opinions.
If we bring quality into the equation then should that not change? I think that if someone has a high opinion of music which is of low quality then my opinion of them as far as musical taste is concerned is lowered. Of course that doesn't mean I think any less of them as a person as a whole. My brother is clueless as far as music goes, but hey, he's my bro!
But judging quality can be quite hard. As sunni said, quality is objective, regardless of our opinion the quality of a certain piece of music doesn't change.
But how is that quality evaluated? There's a few ways to measure the professionalism of production, as well as the adherance to musical structure, but electronic music these days doesn't follow the same form as music in the past, so the second point is less relevant, and people have the ability to produce good quality music in their bedrooms which might not be produced in a top quality studio, but the end product is still is of good quality. So in the end, the quality of music these days is extremely difficult to properly evaluate, so we each do our own evaluations.
Therefore, while quality is objective, our perception of quality is subjective, and it is our perception of quality that we use to judge music, as well as our opinion of the music's appeal. Our opinion of the music and our perception of quality can be seen as the same thing, so it is really only our opinion that can be used to judge music these days.
So what does all that mean?
Just that I agree with everyone who has said that it's just a matter of opinion, 'cept I just had to drag it out a little
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One last point...
It's all fine as long as people form their own opinions and don't simply conform to the opinions of others...
 
Dan: I would say that I'd actually agree with your thoughts on Chris Liebing's production stuff. His releases on CLR are quite good, and different. But under his Stigmata alias the stuff he releases all sounds extremely similar to each other.
I think there are lots of tracks out there in techno land that have certain "similarities" and sometimes I think "oh thats by so and so" but then realise its a totally different track.
Although I think a fair few producers have released tracks that sound like each other, or use particular samples/loops/whatever that they may have previously used in earlier releases. I'm not naming any names as a prime culprit of this, but he is a well hated name mentioned quite a lot around here.
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Anyway, just my $0.02c worth. Flame me if you must.
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interesting note about the Australia Arts Council Finn. I have had minor involvements with them through school (Victorian College of the Arts, its where most graduates find their living!!)
Their version of Excellence has to meet a specific criterion. Now, when you get such diverse styles of music/dance/production etc its often hard to judge from the criterion so its left up to taste from the judges. But what they look for primarily is "will it recieve any money" Dont believe me? Ask anyone. The Arts Council was/is set up to help give a "leg up" to struggling artists who want to show a specific audience their creative outlet, whatever that may be. So, judges will watch, come to an agreement as the whether they like it or not, then take it from there. Because if they like it, people will go and see it and therefore it may raise a bit of revenue. Never enough to cover the costs of the production, but usually enough to make the Arts Council happy. This may sound a bit cynical but from my dealing with them, thats the case
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The same has to be said about more mainstream music
Fataliss has a HUGE point about pop music. In order for it to reach the masses, there must be something about the production and musicianship of the whole 'procedure' for it to work. I dont mind a bit of pop every now and then. It has to be good tho. Did you know the people who write tracks for the Venga Boys also write tracks for Sasha and Digweed?
I look for excellence in electronic music from a classical point of view, because through my schooling thats how ive learned how to do it. I'm not being pretentoius (although sounding HUGELY snooby
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) thats just the way Ive learned.
eh. just my 3 gumboots
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well--->music wise..i really gotta thank the dirty ol' Boobalini(MunkE)
was basically him who got me into REAL electronica..and i thank him fully for it
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yeah...seems that my tastes in electronica evolve really quickly.....
Love it all as long as it's "QUALITY"(dan)
play nice peeps
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"Fear is your only god"
[This message has been edited by *E*van (edited 03 November 2000).]
 
I have this one thing about everyones opinions of music which sort of makes this thread seem meaningless.
Music and the different genres of music is like a religion. It is something that we love and believe in. There is no point discussing our own point of view about our own music tastes if the other person has different music tastes. No one really listens to each other because these are our beliefs, and for some of us ammoral bluliters out there our only beliefs. So lets all try and not bag other types of music. How can we pass judgement on things we've only heard once and although I hate to say this, even if it is about a band like Blink 182 *Cringe, shudder*
I'm not really aiming this at anyone but it just annoys me how people pass judgements on others music tastes as well as passing judgements on their life for their music tastes. I see what (the person that started this thread, sorry forgot name) is trying to say or maybe i'm just trailing off into a cocktail of virbal vomit with a twist of bullshit.
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MEOOOOW!
 
henrys_cat... i'm glad you kind of get what I was TRYING to say? I really am pleased for you... 'cos its almost exactly the same point you were attempting to make!
You make a valid point about preaching to the converted, however this does mean that conversations of a 'religeous' nature should not take place.
As you may or may not have noticed, no one is trying to 'preach to the converted' (except perhaps my Will E Tell comments- sorry), we are (for a change
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) discussing musical genres and negotiated spaces in a mature and objective manner...
M'Kay...
 
its kinda hard to explain but it's clear in my mind
i wasn't trying to say that talking about music or religion was totally pointless but i'd say a fair amount of the time people are so set in their ways and beliefs that they don't listen to each other. It can only be done with open minded people who are prepared to listen and speak.
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MEOOOOW!
 
just thought this was a really good quote
"Trance is not music...'yellow submarine' is music. Trance is emotion expressed in sound waves" - XTC_Ranger
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They say an apple never falls far from the tree...
 
It's funny, but when I'm driving/ getting fired up I like listening to happy/hardcore. But when I'm pilling I like listening to progressive/techno.
Guess it's different strokes for different folks.
 
Music isn't objective, it is the subject! Taste and opinion are the essence of subjective.
And with something as subjective as music, it's a natural tendency to assert our tastes and opinions on this or that music. Don't kid yourselves.
Although there is a mature way to talk about music, that is to respect other opinions.
Don't take it personal.
-F.
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All I wanna do is run my own universe, grab the mic;
and let my spirit just flock when I croon a verse.
-Blackalicious
 
i tend to agree with Fireal.
I love tribal ... I love my music so damn much. But Im open to other kind of music as well. However, have a deep thought, when 2 parties discuss or argue about their own music .... would u not defend the kind of music u love so much?
I dun "look down" on other kind of music and The best music is all based on individuals.
I hope u guys get what I mean - I love my music but i dun mind others. However, when I have to defend a certain genre of music, I would.
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To live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often.
- John Henry Newman
 
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