There is no real point in life.

[ForEverAfter]

heaven can be now and can only be now, not at the time of death.

You've clearly never died.

If you suffer right now, its your own fault, not god plan.

I know your English isn't great, but WTF?
If you suffer, it's your fault?

Suffering is an unavoidable part of life.
If your child dies at the age of 3, and you suffer, how is that your (or anyone's) fault?
Suffering has a function. It isn't a mistake.

...

There is no correct path.
Human beings are exactly what they're supposed to be.

What you're describing sounds like most of the people on the planet are doing something wrong.
That isn't the case. Without suffering the world would cease to function.

 

[murphythecat]

Physical pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional. theres two type of pain, physical and mental. you cannot control how your body suffer, but you can control and train your mind to eventually not suffer from physical pain.

you can only find true happiness right now. if you dont search for it now and dont work for it, I am sure you wont find it permanently after death.

and yes, we all are very confuse and doesnt live upright lives and we will suffer as long as we don't realize where and how to seek happiness.

 

[ForEverAfter]

You're being absurdly idealistic.
Mental suffering is not optional for many people.
It (mental suffering) is just as functional as physical suffering.
Everything is functional. That is how evolution (and the universe) operates.

If mental suffering is something that we shouldn't opt for, are you saying that we shouldn't grieve?
If we're raped, should we not suffer? (As a function.)

Suffering is not meaningless.
On the contrary, according to Buddha life is Dukkha... and Dukkha includes suffering.

you can control and train your mind to eventually not suffer from physical pain

How do you know?
Do you have a chronic pain disorder?
Do you have late stage bowel cancer?

There is nobody on the planet well trained enough to not suffer while being skinned alive.
The suffering that pertains to physical pain serves a very real purpose.

you can only find true happiness right now. if you dont search for it now and dont work for it, I am sure you wont find it permanently after death.

Buddhism is not about the pursuit of happiness, at all.
That is a modern western construct, and it isn't achievable (IMO) as a consistent state of being.

Heaven / Hell refer to the transitional period between life and death.
I have experienced both.

 

[PORB]

james hillmans theories on dreams underworld unconscious and soul. this is all

 

[murphythecat]

Foreverafter, im a buddhist and believe what the monks teach and what the buddha teach. I also practice everyday and it is changing everything in me and my life.

Judge all you want but it wont change the fact that in this life, as long as we continue to live how we live, suffering is bound to happen.
we are the one who creates mental suffering, no one else.

I never said suffering is useless, its indeed our biggest teacher. But the mental stress we inflict ourselfves with our negativity, hate, judgement, ill will are all caused by us and the way we react to outer conditions.
mental suffering is caused by you and your reaction. pain is certain, not mental pain if you develop your mind and train your mind to always love, equanimity: basically the four supreme emotion

all unwholseomethoughts and negative thought makes you suffer. if you grief, yes theres a way to not suffer from it because it wont change anything to lament the lost and remember over and over what you miss about your lost. If someone get raped, sure she will suffer while it happens as she isnt arahant, but after that, as we can clearly observe, some girls get back on their feet fast while others will be traumatized all their life. its all up to the mental capacities and how fast the mind is able to let go of the past experienced.

yes, life is dukkha and according to the buddha, theres the path to liberation and the ending of dukkha.

buddhism is liberation and to find your inner being that is pure and joyful no matter the outer circomstance.

About chronic pain, when you meditate and are concentrated, you do not feel the body anymore once your in the jhanas, so you cannot be beset by physical pain. but, if your not a arahant, yes you will suffer from physical and mental pain, but once your a arahant, physical pain is all its left, no more mental pain.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I didn't mean to come across as judging you. Often my tone isn't clear.
Your post cleared quite a few things up. I'll keep my response relatively brief.

I agree with you about grief, to a certain extent.
But whether or not mental pain (in general) is a "certainty", it has a function.
Regarding chronic pain and meditation: you can't be in a deep meditative trance all the time.
So, as I said earlier, you cannot sustain a state void of suffering.

If someone get raped, sure she will suffer while it happens as she isnt a rahant, but after that, as we can clearly observe, some girls get back on their feet fast while others will be traumatized all their life. its all up to the mental capacities and how fast the mind is able to let go of the past experienced.

Males are raped, also...
As for suffering from rape due to a lack of enlightenment (you said "she" isn't arahant), do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?
This is a good example of the functionality of suffering. It is integral, in many ways, to our survival as a species and our survival as individuals.

yes, life is dukkha and according to the buddha, theres the path to liberation and the ending of dukkha.

If life is dukkha, the liberation from dukkha is not life.
The Tibetan Buddhists would argue that liberation is death.
What denomination of Buddhism do you identify with?

...

And, what do you think about this:

NSFW:

(Warning: graphic footage.)

 

[murphythecat]

im Theravada which is the closest to the buddha teaching. and what the monk did here, I do not think was good for him at all but I dont want to judge, but if he wasnt a arahant, then he has lost a precious life and I find it very weird. if Tibetan buddhist say that liberation only happens after death, this is in direct contradictory with the buddha teaching as a human life is precious especially when are in contact with the teaching of a buddha. form what Ive read about tibettan and zen buddhism, some of their notion would be completely dismmissed from the buddha and Id be very careful to trust any other sects then the one closest to the buddha teaching which is theravada.

its important to understand that meditation is only the mean to gains insight into your inner self and to find liberation. indeed, the buddha noticed to when he was in meditative absorption, he was totally happy and joyful and peaceful, but when he came out of the meditation, all the dukkha would come back. hence his search for the ending of all suffering not dependant on concentration as even meditation states are impermanent. but meditation is needed in order to reach the inner self and to remove the ego centricity in order to see what really there all along, within us. The insight you gain from the jhanas are invaluable. for example, after the third jhana, you clearly realize that there cannot be contentment in the mind if they are wishes in the mind. After the first jhana, you realize that the experience of the jhana and the joyful sensation that happen in the first jhana is much much more blissful and satisfactory then any pleasure you can obtain with the 5 senses and with the pleasure of sense contact. therefore you realize that you have within yourself something much more pleasurable that can be attain, at all time, with concentration. already, liberation begins as you dont seek all day long pleasure with the 5 senses and you dont lament over stuff you cant have in the world because you've experienced and understood that the pleasure of concentration is far greater and deeper then anything the world can brings and that it is within, available right here right now.

mental pain has no goal, it only brings more suffering and only a fool makes himself suffer. our mental suffering is automatic, our mind is out of control and buddhism is all about training the mind to take control of the mind. why out of control? because he thinks stuff we dont want to think, he hate stuff automatically. we must learn to see all his tendencies are try to replace by the opposite: the negativity with the positivity. eventually, mindfulness of thought becomes habitual and hatred will never enter his mind.




heres a buddha explanation on pain:


"When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

 

[ForEverAfter]

do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?

... and what do you think about self-immolation, as a result of fundamental Buddhism?

its important to understand that meditation is only the mean to gains insight into your inner self and to find liberation. indeed, the buddha noticed to when he was in meditative absorption, he was totally happy and joyful and peaceful, but when he came out of the meditation, all the dukkha would come back. hence his search for the ending of all suffering not dependant on concentration as even meditation states are impermanent.

The Buddha says everything is impermanent, including happiness.
That is one of the foundations of Buddhism.

Yet you're talking about achieving a state in which happiness is not impermanent.
I don't think the Buddha believed that this could be sustained indefinitely.

You said he talks about the path towards liberation.
Do you think he, himself, achieved that liberation?
If so, wouldn't that contradict the idea that everything is impermanent?

I see no issue with striving for perfection. This is how we excel, in every field.
But we must understand, while doing so, that - try as we might - we cannot touch the horizon.

Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?

If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?

These guys spend their whole lives attempting to transcend themselves.
Transcending pleasure and pain. Transcending their physical form.
I'm not sure what is left, really.

Personally, I like the roller coaster of life.
I like the pleasure and the pain.
Suffering is interesting.

Without suffering, we wouldn't be here.

 

[murphythecat]

hi, interesting questions!
I dont think self immolation would have been recommended by the buddha, and from what I have read about some buddhism sects, I doubt the buddha would have recommended it, actually im sure he would have disagreed. Tibettan buddhism has made a lot of change over the buddha teachings and could be considered not totally fidel to the simple teaching of the buddha.

The world is impermanent and your body is too. Everything in the world is impermanent, your mind also as its always changing. Buddhism is about awakening ''oneself'' to the ultimate reality within, nibbana and to liberate your mind of all its negative tendencies. nibbanna is the unconditioned reality which is not impermanent because its not conditioned by outer conditions.
its also quite clear that nibbana is not a place, but its a feeling.


of course, the buddha was fully enlightened and also so many arahant after him. Ayya khema and ajahn chah are likely arahant.

there nothing to transcend, especially not you as the self is a illusion. The me, the egocentricity, is the number one cause of your suffering and pains in life. its not transcendin pleasure and pain, its udnerstanding their impermanent reality and therefore not be dependant upon those to be happy and content.

when you remove all the judgments, the ego centricity, the hate, ect, the craving, the desire, the wish. what is left? nibbanna which is the end of all suffering and the unconditioned reality within, the inner reality.

 

[ForEverAfter]

How do you know the Buddha was "fully" enlightened?
At what stage of his life did he become enlightened?
(I don't see how you can be partially enlightened.)

I like Tibetan Buddhism, personally.
It has altered some of the traditional teachings, but in a good way IMO.
Buddha was just a man. He is not infallible. His teachings are imperfect.

...

I'd like you to respond to these comments/questions, if you don't mind:

do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?

Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?

If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?

These guys spend their whole lives attempting to transcend themselves.
Transcending pleasure and pain. Transcending their physical form.
I'm not sure what is left, really.

 

[murphythecat]

You can only know once you begin to practice. once you have experienced the control over your thoughts and acheived concentration in meditation, your mind stop all is doubts, which is a really important hindrance, and your mind see that wow, this was very pleasant, very calm and that maybe my teacher and the monks and the buddha knew something I didnt.
we all think we know more, we know better, and this is a big problem as its a blockage to the practice.

heres a wiki article:
The four stages of attainment

The Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples (Ariya Sangha) can be described as including four or eight kinds of individuals. There are four [groups of noble disciples] when path and fruit are taken as pairs, and eight groups of individuals, when each path and fruit are taken separately:

(1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
(3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
(5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
(7) the path to arahantship; (8) the fruition of arahantship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

 

[murphythecat]

So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?
once you remove mental pain, mental pleasure is a part of the factor of enlightenment.
there four supreme mental emotion: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
what the buddha meant was when one have physical pleasure, it doesnt get attached to it as he know its impermanenet. on the contrary, mental pleasure is present at all time and its one of the factor of nibbanna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?
it would be better to not suffer from it mentally. if he hurts you, physical pain is unavoidable, but lamenting ect will not bring happiness. dont you think?

If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?
I think the world would be a wonderful place where everyone would grow and purify their being.

How do you know the Buddha was "fully" enlightened?
At what stage of his life did he become enlightened?
(I don't see how you can be partially enlightened.)

I like Tibetan Buddhism, personally.
It has altered some of the traditional teachings, but in a good way IMO.
Buddha was just a man. He is not infallible. His teachings are imperfect.

...

I'd like you to respond to these comments/questions, if you don't mind:

You can only know once you begin to practice and learn to meditate. once you have experienced the control over your thoughts and achieved concentration in meditation, your mind stop some of his doubts, which is a really detrimental hindrance, and your mind see that wow, this was very pleasant, very calm and that maybe my teacher and the monks and the buddha know something I dont.
we all think we know more, we know better, and this is a big problem as its a blockage to the practice.



heres a wiki article:
The four stages of attainment

The Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples (Ariya Sangha) can be described as including four or eight kinds of individuals. There are four [groups of noble disciples] when path and fruit are taken as pairs, and eight groups of individuals, when each path and fruit are taken separately:

(1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
(3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
(5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
(7) the path to arahantship; (8) the fruition of arahantship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

fully enlightened is arahant

 

[ForEverAfter]

I've practiced meditation and studied Buddhism.
I do not think it is the answer, any more than I think Christianity is the answer.
There is much to be gained from both.

Buddhists tend to treat Buddha like God, from my observations.
His teachings must be questioned.... The assumption should not be made that he was perfect.
Same goes for Christ.

They were just men, assuming that JC was actually a real person.
Extraordinary men, no doubt, but men nonetheless... and, men are imperfect.
It is dangerous to treat anything as gospel, whether it is the NT or the teachings of Buddha.
IMO, doing this interferes with the (endless) path towards liberation.

 

[murphythecat]

buddha like god? not even close. he is our teacher.

buddha was indeed a men, but his teaching go beyond and brings ultimate peace and once you purify your mind, you will know that you can become perfect and most importantly, that you must. for your own sake, you absolutely must and its the ultimate and only goal worth pursuing

I think that you must questioned yourself at this point and maybe admit that you may not know everything there is to know and that others may be able to help you.

 

[ForEverAfter]

once you remove mental pain, mental pleasure is a part of the factor of enlightenment.
there four supreme mental emotion: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
what the buddha meant was when one have physical pleasure, it doesnt get attached to it as he know its impermanenet. on the contrary, mental pleasure is present at all time and its one of the factor of nibbanna.

So in order to overcome mental suffering, you have to go without physical pleasure?
If so, I'd rather have both.

it would be better to not suffer from it mentally. if he hurts you, physical pain is unavoidable, but lamenting ect will not bring happiness. dont you think?

Women rape people too.
It is healthier, in my opinion, to suffer if you're being raped.
If you burn your hand on the stove, you learn not to touch hot things.
Similarly, the mental suffering you endure while being raped has a (societal) function.
If nobody suffered from rape, then it would happen more often and without consequence.
Theoretically, you may have a point. But, in practice, it has quite horrible implications. Don't you think?

If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?

I think the world would be a wonderful place where everyone would grow and purify their being.

Then, why are you using the internet?
It is a construct of a non-monk world.

Personally I like art, music and technology.
In a world occupied entirely by monks, there wouldn't be much passion.
There certainly wouldn't be Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson.
There wouldn't be Jackson Pollock or Salvidor Dali.

If you want to live in a world entirely occupied by monks, why don't you go live in a monastery?
(I suspect this is a comment that might be misinterpreted tonally... Keep in mind, I mean no harm.)

 

[ForEverAfter]

I think that you must questioned yourself at this point and maybe admit that you may not know everything there is to know and that others may be able to help you.

You're making assumptions about me.
I don't think I know everything, any more than you do.
Of course others can help me.

I have benefited a great deal from Buddhism, Christianity and many other faiths.
Perhaps, if you don't mind the suggestion, Buddhism isn't the answer to all life's questions.

buddha like god?

You talk about Buddha as if he is infallible.
You sound a bit like a Christian fundamentalist talking about Christ.

you will know that you can become perfect and most importantly, that you must. for your own sake, you absolutely must and its the ultimate and only goal worth pursuing

Being enlightened is not the only goal worth pursuing.
The life of a monk does not appeal to me, much.

 

[murphythecat]

I know you mean no harm foreverafter

Im not even close to being a monk, and im only here to help.

of course, you need to first have experienced the pleasure and relieves of concentration before stopping the craving of the sensual pleasure. it doesnt mean you wont stop experiencing pleasurable sense contact once your a monk, but you will stop being so attached and dependant upon the sense contact for your happiness. even moreso, every little detail of reality will bring enormous joy and a arahant is permanently filled with inner joy.

right now, the whole basis of your happiness is dependant upon the exterial world.
meanwhile, theres something inside of you that can bring thousands time more pleasure, but you dont know it because of the 5 hindrances, because of what the ego tells you it wants.

Of course, someone who is being raped (not sure why you keep on mentioning that) brings suffering and that person will need eventually to forget about it and try to be happy no matter what happened to her. dont you think?


and yes, once my practice is more advanced, i will get ordained.

 

[murphythecat]

You're making assumptions about me.
I don't think I know everything, any more than you do.
Of course others can help me.

I have benefited a great deal from Buddhism, Christianity and many other faiths.
Perhaps, if you don't mind the suggestion, Buddhism isn't the answer to all life's questions.
.

youve shown in this conversation how may now know enough of the dharma teaching to make a logical conclusion about the veracity of the teaching. Imo, anyone who understand fully the dharma and begins the practice wholeheartedly will remove, quite fast, all the doubts he may have as he will experience a true change in oneselve. Once you experience a ceoncetration state in meditation, which is already hard to achieve in the beginning and takes a couple of active week of practice, you experience clearly the benefit of no thoughts and to be concentrated to the breath (for example). you realize how beautiful every single breath is, how calm you really are and how peaceful and happy you are, when you remove all those thoughts and opinions.


ayya khema is a great starting point. ajahn brahm also is a great teacher.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I don't need Buddhism to experience God / enlightenment.
It, as a faith, doesn't have ownership over the divine any more than any other faith does.

right now, the whole basis of your happiness is dependant upon the exterial world.
meanwhile, theres something inside of you that can bring thousands time more pleasure, but you dont know it because of the 5 hindrances, because of what the ego tells you it wants.

Again, you're making assumptions about me.
I have experienced "heaven" / "enlightenment" briefly, through (non-religious) chanting / meditation combined with a near death experience.
What you're saying isn't dissimilar to Christians saying that you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I don't need to have a relationship with Christ, nor do I need to closely follow the teachings of Buddha.

Buddhism and Christianity have only existed for so long and nobody has ownership over God / enlightenment.
On the contrary, strictly identifying with any particular faith is (IMO) counterproductive towards enlightenment.

You know that saying, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him"?
What are your thoughts on that, as it applies to your intention towards ordainment?

Of course, someone who is being raped (not sure why you keep on mentioning that) brings suffering and that person will need eventually to forget about it and try to be happy no matter what happened to her. dont you think?

I mention it because it presents a breaking point, in terms of your ideology.
You said "it would be better to not suffer from (rape) mentally", but that is not the case.
If a child, for example, did not suffer. Then wouldn't it be (sort of) okay for people to rape children?
Of course it is good to overcome trauma, but the trauma (suffering) itself is functional.
Sometimes we need to suffer.

You could certainly argue the point that we suffer too much.
But I don't see how you can argue sensibly that we shouldn't suffer at all.
Our species would not have survived if we hadn't suffered throughout the ages.

...

Why is it, do you think, that so many Buddhist monks perform self-immolation?

 

[murphythecat]

buddhism is not about faith. even the buddha mention dont believe me, practice what I teach and try for yourself.
''
The Buddha never encouraged 'blind faith'. He encouraged saddha or confidence in his teachings, after considering, 'tasting', and testing them in one's life.''

about killing the buddha.
1. Killing the Buddha By Sam Harris
“Kill the Buddha,” says the old koan. “Kill Buddhism,” says Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, who argues that Buddhism’s philosophy, insight, and practices would benefit more people if they were not presented as a religion.
The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi is supposed to have said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
''for very many people the religious aspect of Buddhism makes it a deal breaker that stops them from developing sila, samadhi and panna. Keep in mind also, that when the Buddha was teaching, he didn't set out to create a new religion. What he found was that suffering was universal and the remedy to suffering was likewise universal. Secular approaches to Dhamma have been very successful in making it accessible to a whole lot of people for whom Buddhism is "just another organised religion"
again about killing the buddha:
It's important to see the real meaning of the quote. Since it was spoken by a Zen master, it'd best be explained by another master from the same tradition:

”According to Buddhism, knowledge is the greatest obstacle to awakening. If we are trapped by our knowledge we will not have the possibility of going beyond it and realizing awakening. When we believe something to be the absolute truth and cling to it, we cannot be open to new ideas. Even if truth itself is knocking at our door, we will not let it in. The Zen student must strive to be free of attachments to knowledge and be open so that truth may enter. The teacher must also help in these efforts. Zen master Lin Chi once said: “If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet the Patriarch, kill the Patriarch”. For one who only has devotion, this declaration is terribly confusing. But its effect depends on the mentality and capacity of the one who hears. If the student is strong, she will have the capacity to liberate herself from all authority and realize ulitmate reality in herself. Truth is not a concept. If we cling to our concepts, we lose reality. That is why it is necessary to “kill” our concepts so that reality can reveal itself. To kill the Buddha is the only way to see the Buddha. Any concept we have of the Buddha can impede us from seeing the Buddha in person”

~~ Thich Nhat Hanh - Excerpt from Zen Keys ~~


you should stop comparing christianity to buddhism.

of course, we suffer tremendously. and thats why we need to train our mind to stop most of the suffering as most of it is self induced.