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Therapeutic doses of a dissociative?

BrainDamagedGeek

BrainDamagedGeek

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Therapeutic doses of a dissociative?

I have always felt out of place. my consciousness seems as if its usually jammed between two frequencies. Despite the years of different kinds of psych meds, I seem to benefit the most from an overdose of cough medicine.

It was as if things finally made sense. My sense of self, emotions, philosophies, confidence, and motivation worked in tune with floods of vivid memories and beautiful inspiration and insight.

Things seemed to be "glued together" in a way that made it easy for me to - and I didn't even need to experience near-death ego loss like he did with other substances.

Ketamine was even more useful. I'm tempted to over-do it though.

Now MXE has appeared on the scene and is more easily accessible.

I know some basic neuropsychiatry / pharmacology (at least the similarities and differences of popular dissociative drugs) a la wikipedia.

Anyways, my bi-polar horse has seen countless articles concerning the many "experimental" uses of K.

An anti depressant, a way to kick opiate dependence, cure neurological conditions, ease phantom limb, boost mood and insight, kill pain, etc.

I used K to ween off suboxone with significant success.

My days of overindulging may be wayning, but as all SSRIs and mood stabilizers fall short for me, he wonders if others have experimented with using K or M in supplemental doses.

- would tolerance effect any benefit after a while?

- what is the significance of NMDA receptors, as far as depression goes?

- what about gutamate and its relationship to memory?

- what are the reationships between these drugs and vitamins, supplements, minerals and diet?

- - reactions with certain psychiatric medication.


TLDR = Could someone possibly use dissociative drugs in small doses daily?


Thoughts?

P.S. Sorry if I'm longwinded. just started taking a new ADD med (Focalin(which is great))
 
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We don't do the "my horse" thing here.

As for NMDA receptors and depression, ketamine has been found to be effective in single doses, not continued administration.
 
I have used DXM at low doses (30-60mg) for extended periods of time. I noticed little change in depression one way or the other.
 
Jamshyd has started a ketamine low dose regimen thread a while ago, you can look for it. It is meant to show how it could be used therapeutically but it is warned a million times that most are not able to control themselves and keep this up for a long time without becoming seduced to make the habit more serious and blur the lines between therapeutic and recreational or "self-experimental".

I have a friend who says he keeps his MXE at a friends house and uses it once every month or with some interval like that. He says it helps setting him straight in many ways. Hey, for me monthly low dose LSD definitely works setting me straight (resetting/rebooting my system and built-up mental crap) but he lists other helpful changes in his character as well. Still, the guy is a turbulent fucking character so it is hard to pin-point what the dynamics actually are. But anyway HIS claim is that it helps him. He also has a long history of DXM that has also helped him in multiple dimensions of ways which he has explained to me in the past. He has also abused it and still may be, I'm not clear on the story but he finds it a wonderdrug and he is not the stuttering pile of mess I know K-heads can easily become (including myself).

Nitrous seems too fast and volatile in apparent meaning to have persisting therapeutic effects.
 
You cannot communicate with horses, please seek psychiatric help. (it's against the rules to pull the SWIM/my pet shit)

In any case, read this thread if you haven't: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/372731-Jamshyd-s-Medicinal-Ketamine-Regimen!-(V-1-5-UPDATED-11-22-10)

And have you considered the possibility that your ADD medications are contributing to your issues?

Also, while this sort of thing may be effective as a band-aid of last resort, it's not a long term solution.

On high-dose dissociatives providing subjective amelioration for your issues, fun though it is (I can't stay away from chasing this every few months at least myself), it is delusional. IME it is an effect of severe dissociation to let you live out your subconscious wish fulfillment fantasies, emotionally or in vivid realism (if the dose is high enough to induce dream-visions). It's easy to survive just to reexperience this, but this isn't a solution nor a real alleviation of symptoms, just a mad obsession that distracts you from making any real progress, which will require longterm lifestyle changes.
 
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NKB you forgot to edit the horse out of his avatar as well. Anyway it's not even correct, horse is heroin. ;)
And I cannot really fancy how heroin would use ketamine. Maybe because I flunked solid-state reaction chem class.

Anyway part of the therapeutic uses of psychedelics and dissociatives to me seem to be partially due to a dissolution and reanchoring of a baseline of your state, also some beneficial monoamine actions can help bumping up that baseline or associating them with one another.
But I'm talking the right kind of reuptake inhibition with small and responsibly infrequent dosing. If you overshoot that mark the acute and more or less predictable benefits of say ketamine ingestion regarding anti-depressant actions seem to turn into something else. Something less predictable, less sustainably helpful and something with potential adverse side effects such as mild to severe depersonalization.
And peculiar things I have noticed like it being able to turn a frown upside down, but a smile as well - so a part of it is consistent in its inversion.
On the other hand, there is another mechanism I have noticed: being that if one becomes dissociated it can be essential what activities are performed during this state because it can work like imprinting. If your sense of self is wiped, it can matter like night and day if you for example watch a feel-good movie or a melodramatic movie, or if you are just quite inactive instead potentially leaving you empty.
More than once have stories like Romeo and Juliet left me deeply depressed and vulnerable for a significant time after. Of course all of this is not contained in the 'prescription' of proper use with therapeutic intent.

LSD has some conditions as well, but I can find them to be a little harder to track and more depending on the mindset and setting when going in, than necessarily what the actual activities are. Having the freedom to let go is just a major condition, knowing what you want out of it is as well. My failures with low dose therapeutic use seem to be traceable back to these factors.

It's almost funny when you try to predict logical outcomes like that, but low doses don't tend to be so all-over-the-place as a true psychedelic trip. It's not really the same ballpark.
 
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In my opinion, no it can't be done. First there is the risk, as said, that you won't be able to control yourself. Thats a big thing. But, even if you can, tolerance will run it into the ground and you'll end in a situation where your sober state will be the inverse of the drug and usage of the drug will only make you feel normal. Look what tolerance does to heroin: a baseline of being sick like a dog intermitted with a shallow mediocre high.

You can't incorporate these artificial paradises into your daily life. Huxley's Soma has not been invented yet.
 
Maybe you are assuming too much tolerance development regarding sub-threshold doses? I don't think Jamshyd has been running such a big and long thread about it if it were physiologically impossible. Not sure how long he or another participant of that thread have been able to sustain a stable regimen but what I do take away from it (meaning: IIRC), it's not bullshit.

But the self-control is a serious issue. However remember there are enough people who are find dissociatives unpleasant in ways or uninteresting. I hate DXM for example, while ketamine has more popular users there are still enough people who just find active doses too messed up. So that removes a good part of the abuse risk I'd say, no?
DXM would be suited for me to investigate anti-depressant effects from SRI, I guess - although that's speaking technically since I am soon talking with addiction physicians to wane me off my self-medications and see what alternatives remain necessary (if so).
Ergo: I am not a suitable candidate for quite a while.
 
Subtreshold doses.. 12 mg IM 4-5x a day.. Thats still over 2/3 of an ounce of pure ketamine being IM-ed per year in 1825 intramuscular injections. Thats pretty serious use. I hope Jamshyd will chime in on this topic, but the impression I got from the whole thread is that he uses it a few weeks on, then multiple months off, not continuous use, and during the off period he had incidences of weeklong ketamine binges, which to me shows the addictive potential of the regimen does not seem to pass him by also.

I hear that the loopiness is to wear off after 5 days and the "afterglow" effect is to remain (though some didnt have this work for them). That makes me wonder whether the therapeutic effect has to do with NMDA agonist at all, maybe its a result from the particular affinities with which dopamine reuptake is inhibited, ie, use of ketamine in low doses as a kind of stimulant. Stimulants can be antidepressant and DARI have ways of long retaining their effectiveness, as seen by the effectiveness of daily ritalin or cocaine.

I'm not sure what the consequences of continuous ketamine presence will be for the kidneys and bladder. Subtreshold chronic doses of irritants have a way of sensitizing and weakening tissues over time. On a prolonged subtreshold concentration of tear gas you won't have watering eyes, chest pain or cough, but you are much more likely than the average person to develop asthma, respiratory disease or even cancer of the airways. If you keep rubbing a spot on your arm, skin cancer wil develop. Ketamine is safe for several surgeries in a lifetime, but what will continuous exposure in low doses effect? Ketamine has been used in subcultures since the 1970s, but recognition of the devastating effects of ketamine abuse on the bladder have only gotten recognized about 5 years ago.

And then, I would be hesitant to call an effect an "afterglow" when your body is still full of the drug and active metabolites. PCP like drugs take about 5-10 days to get out of your system and affect you directly during that period. I'd call it more a secondary pharmacological action, than an afterglow. Being constantly medicated on a neurotoxic drug, I can't imagine that being a good thing in the long run. Also psychiatrically; we love and fear how delusional these drugs can make us in ways that often the outsider sees but escapes the experimenter, would a low chronic dose not subtlely take you a wee bit aloft, and have little red riding hood stray from the path very gradually, an imperceptible amount more with each dose, until suddenly they are faced head on with the Big Bad Wolf? These drugs are notorious for having the experimenter delude themselves that all is benign, while the subtle pull of the drug reels them in.

What I believe is that on 5x12mg IM per day the NMDA effects are mostly toleranced away and whats left is the particular way in which it is a DARI, which is similar to, but different in nature from, other DARI such as MDPV, Ritalin and Cocaine.
 
i found dissociatives to be great anti-depressents, especially dxm. k lasts too short and pcp is too unpredictable. of course, everyone around me was like "you look spaced out" and shit like that so while i wasn't depressed i was out of my fucking skull.
 
Dissociatives have always worked well with me, in mind and body.

Lower doses of dissociatives give me a very great sense of inner peace, this mindset has been EXTREMELY helpful for dealing with problems I would usually be too afraid to approach. They also help me to realise what's really important to me; my family and friends.

- DXM is best for this in my experience. A first or possibly second plateau dose (75-200mg).

Also the afterglow is quite nice. Motivation, Drive and Enthusiasm; all improved for the next week after a low dose dxm experience (note that cognitive function is not enhanced however). This afterglow is ruined with abuse/tolerance and is less pleasant at higher doses.

- MXE i found not as therapeutic, but more recreational (high doses or low for opiate-esque buzz)
 
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DXM is in addition to being a dissociative also an SNRI. Not surprising it works for depression...

Asante said:
In my opinion, no it can't be done. First there is the risk, as said, that you won't be able to control yourself. Thats a big thing. But, even if you can, tolerance will run it into the ground and you'll end in a situation where your sober state will be the inverse of the drug and usage of the drug will only make you feel normal. Look what tolerance does to heroin: a baseline of being sick like a dog intermitted with a shallow mediocre high.

You can't incorporate these artificial paradises into your daily life. Huxley's Soma has not been invented yet.
Click to expand...

In principle what you're doing is trying to induce a tolerance. Administration of NMDA antagonists causes upregulation of happy positive 5-ht1a receptors. You're not trying to sustain any sort of buzz.

Incidentally I tried the regimen with methoxetamine and found it mildly interesting but decided I was going through too much drugs and money and quit.
 
Just caught up with the posts here. Very interesting to hear all of your input, and I am very grateful. Thank you. You guys are very knowledgeable.

At the very least, it feels good to hear my experience and thoughts are shared, or at least considered by others. Asante & Solipsis -Thanks guys.

I was afraid I was gonna be run off. Sorry bout the horse thing.

Yup. logistics aside, the real road-block proved to be the seductive pull of over-indulgence. So I'm playing it safe for the time being by abstaining.
 
I've only tried 2 dissociatives: DXM and MXE

I have found DXM to be very therapeutic. I'm able to analyze myself, my life, my relationships and really gain insight, and the afterglow after a good trip always seems to have a good anti-depressant effect the next couple of days.

I have done MXE maybe a dozen times and have gotten maybe 2 therapeutic trips. The one sticking out most was when I was able to hole on it. My first time going into a dissociative hole of any kind. However I was using it at a bad time in my life, which resulted in some extremely saddening (to the point of bringing me to tears at times), and remorseful trips. It had a special way of making me relive the recent memories that were the hardest of my life
 
Thanks for sharing with me everybody. I really appreciate it. You guys rock.

UPDATE: Anybody who's still here or is interested, I found some interesting things. Check out the drug Rilutek / Riluzole. It works like a dissociative and is being considered as an antidepressant.

I made a new thread in the Homeless section because I wasn't sure where to put it.

Here's a link to the ABC special on it.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/party-drug-treat-depression-15502338
 
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