Theoretically possible to taper benzos without pain and tears?

[mesmer]

We know BZD withdrawal sucks because it takes the GABA system so goddamn long to come back on line. It seems that c/t or quick tapers exacerbate this even more through the damage of over-activation (obi seizures are damaging, but even before then...). However, what I'm unclear about is why ultra-slow tapers wouldn't essentially be painless?

It seems like if GABA receptors repair themselves at rate X for a person (which is probably always changing) then a taper which also goes at that rate would be relatively painless. Unless there needs to be a certain level of "need" to spur the brain to repair itself (but in that case, why does it seem nearly universally true that the faster the taper, the greater the risk of protracted w/d symptoms?

I just see no reason why a very slow and continuous taper (that lasts for, say 6 mos - 2 years) would result in terrible symptoms. Talking much slower than Ashton recommendations here, something like .1%-.25% per day. Wouldn't the brain be healing itself during the taper at around the same rate?


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relevance: I've been on a relatively low dose of Kpin (.5mg) for a relatively long time (5+ years) and am starting to experience some things (burning skin, breakthrough panic, nightmares, tinnitus) that are all classic bzd withdrawal symptoms. Currently debating going up or down in dosage. I've used recreational doses of bd maybe once or twice a year, so 99% of the time just a low therapeutic dose (that now seems to have no effects at all)

 

[qwe]

^ same boat, 5 years but 2mg and potentiation.

i am tapering at 0.01-0.1%, adjusted based on life events. 'life events' can be a large understatement. luckily i don't drink alcohol except maybe once a month so i don't have too much damage from that type of WD.

i'm hoping neuro research penetrates this aspect of pharmaceutical experience and advances modern medicine. BZ WD leads to socially awkward penguin behavior and negative psychosomatic experience.

 

[twato]

Interesting topic! I'm in pretty bad WDs because I jumped off at 20mg diazepam daily, I didn't have the patience to taper down any more. However, if I find the symptoms unbearable, I'll probably give tapering another shot, and even though Ashton is widely regarded as an authority in this field, maybe a longer taper period would be easier.

I'm not very experiencend with benzo tapers, this having been my first attempt (and also first physical addiction), so I'm very interested if this would be possible. Sounds reasonable to me, but more information or first hand accounts would be much appreciated by me as well.

Also, I wish you good luck and much strength OP, benzos are really a hard thing to get rid of.

 

[mesmer]

QWE: were you experiencing "tolerance withdrawal" symptoms before you started taper? have they eased up since taper started? So you are expecting your taper to take 3 years+?

It seems like such a slow taper shouldn't kick up symptoms. I mean it seems that due to what you eat on any given day, the amount of sleep you got, the cycle of the moon, etc, whether you want 21 or 24 or 28 hours between last dose, etc would vary levels of the drug more than the micro taper. I don't know, I get why going quickly results in symptoms, a simple matter of the brain playing catch up, but not sure why going slowly would? And if it does, then suddenly a multi-year long taper sounds like prolonging the agony.

It would be nice to have the BZD equivalent of Iboga, that's for sure. Just don't think it is going to happen. GABA system seems too finicky.

 

[Allein]

I can't comment on such a long standing use, I've been fighting with Diazepam on and off for 2-3 years and have tapered twice in that period not including the one I just did and finished about a week ago (nearly).

I don't want to quote numbers but my use has been excessive and my tolerance rises very quickly, everyone is going to react differently to Benzos and the withdrawal, some don't seem to have and withdrawal at all.

I'm sure if you are confident you can stick to it over that period of time, your microtaper would result in a relatively painless although, as the Ashton manual suggests switching to a longer acting Benzo like Diazepam would make things easier. Personally I found the Ashton schedule too drawn out and tapered off in just over 2 months.

I suspect you are already suffering withdrawal due to tolerance as mesmer said and is documented in the Ashton manual says so your going to have to address the situation, it's either up or down It would be easy to say you needed to come off and taper ASAP but I don't know how reliant you are these, if you want relief from your current symptoms you would have to increase your dose but it will only be a matter of time before tolerance catches up with you again.

Good Luck

 

[mesmer]

yah, i realize lots of BLers prob have horror stories and success stories and every w/d is different - guess I am more asking what we know about the theory behind how exactly the brain regenerates GABA receptors post-withdrawal and if these theories make it likely that there is some ideal taper where healing will be occurring but no w/d symptoms will occur (whether or not that actually can happen due to other factors, I don't know).

\

 

[Allein]

I'm no doctor or neurologist, I can only go by my experiences and what I have heard from other and read. I think everyone is going to be different just like most things, I think so far the Heather Ashton manual is about as close to providing a cover all taper system. This is based on real people that had been using Benzos for many years, rather than trying to measure a physical change in the brain, I have no idea how you would go about such a thing.

Maybe we have a neurologist here who might be able to offer some input, the Ashton manual was written some time ago so things will have moved on since then.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

It seems like if GABA receptors repair themselves at rate X for a person (which is probably always changing) then a taper which also goes at that rate would be relatively painless. Unless there needs to be a certain level of "need" to spur the brain to repair itself (but in that case, why does it seem nearly universally true that the faster the taper, the greater the risk of protracted w/d symptoms?

I just see no reason why a very slow and continuous taper (that lasts for, say 6 mos - 2 years) would result in terrible symptoms. Talking much slower than Ashton recommendations here, something like .1%-.25% per day. Wouldn't the brain be healing itself during the taper at around the same rate?

This is a very interesting idea. I have never been dependent to benzos, so I can only compare it to my methadone taper, which I know involves different receptors but it might be similar in a way. I found that beyond a certain point slowing the taper (or decreasing the size of the dose drops) did not seem to reduce the withdrawal symptoms further.

I am inclined to speculate that as you suggested, there may have to be a certain level of "need" for the brain to repair itself. I don't think it can repair itself fast enough for a person to feel no mental or physical withdrawal symptoms at all and that the symptoms may be needed for the brain to adjust - if there was no anxiety, depression etc, why would your brain change anything? This is all just a theory on my part of course.

But it is very hard to know, since for most people it is next to impossible to taper by such a rate as .1%, especially when you get down to very low doses it becomes extremely difficult to measure that precisely. And it would take forever, we're talking a lot longer than 6 mo to 2 yrs. And then on top of that the rate at which the brain repairs itself is highly variable from person to person (and how much repair is needed also depends on how long they've taken the drug, how much of it, how frequently they dosed), and who knows if even in one individual the brain repairs at a constant rate? And then you have to take into account other factors like whether the person is experiencing rebound of the issues they were using the drug for in the first place, which can cause suffering in withdrawal as well.

Unfortunately I suspect that the reason that not much research is being done into this stuff is because there is a lot more money in keeping people on drugs than helping them painlessly get off drugs (especially without the help of another drug).

 

[pally pete]

In my own stupid experience ive always quit cold turkey (not recommended) and seem to live my whole life with constant withdrawal symptoms as a result.

Yet it is not as clear cut as that because long before id even discovered Benzos id suffered with severe anxiety and depression (yet didnt want to admit it to myself or anyone else) which was cowardly but i feared no one would believe me and i didnt want to believe it myself, so once i discovered Benzos.... Voila! It was the piece in the puzzle id been looking for (or so i thought) and here i am 3 years later trying my best to get my tolerance down so that i can finally get put on a medically controlled taper of 40mg Diazepam per day, which is the maximum they are supposedly allowed to prescribe in the here in the UK... Yet just to take the edge of my Anxiety/withdrawal symptoms il need xxxmg of Diazepam so im worried how long il be on this rollercoaster until a 40mg per day is practicle?

I was getting there and began to lower my intake to around 50-100mg every few days and then i went and binged (and added some Oxy, DHC, Tramadol) into the mix so therefore my taper what was originally planned to begin on June 18th was thrown off course as my local drug councilling service ask me for a urine sample each week to make sure im just using Benzos and nothing else and the test showed up positive for Morphine so they therefore refused to begin my taper, which is completely understanderble as they have a duty of care and cant risk me using Benzos + Opiates as they see it as an overdose risk.

I dont know where im going with this and im unsure how this is going to help with the OP's questions..... i just feel lost and worried.

 

[qwe]

i'd like to know what speed of tapering correlates with the least negative neurological changes. the phenomenon of "kindling" (which is how WD is worse and worse each subsequent time) is mostly studied in alcohol withdrawal. i assume kindling and associated tolerance/dependence increase mechanisms (manifested as paradoxical symptoms when the system adapts to the benzo/alcohol/etc anxiolysis) are continuously active even while the anxiety system is chemically static in regards to the drug--because the drug does some sort of neurological change over a longer period of time?

 

[Tussmann]

Memantine.

I can take Clonezepam, and alprazolam daily for a couple rough weeks and cold turkey them as long as I have 40 mg of memantine to prevent excitatory rebound. If I really need it, I'll have a beer or two, or some phenibut and 5+ gram doses of taurine.

 

[Rainbow raver]

Shall I sue?

Memantine.

I can take Clonezepam, and alprazolam daily for a couple rough weeks and cold turkey them as long as I have 40 mg of memantine to prevent excitatory rebound. If I really need it, I'll have a beer or two, or some phenibut and 5+ gram doses of taurine.

I have been on benzos for 20 years and was cold turkeyd I thought I was gonna die
A psychiatrist did this

 

[bronson]

In the past I've slowly went down off of a dose of 4mg Klonopin a day (about six months on) with a reduction of .5mg in the daily dose every other week. Made for a long process and was not very pleasant throughout.

Truly though the worst part is the couple of months after that was done where you still don't feel yourself. I at least though had the nicety of wanting to get off of the medicine as I didn't like how it was making me feel and felt I was being over prescribed. I can only imagine the whole situation becomes all the worse if you are forced into it.

After the hiatus from benzos I still needed something for me anxiety and take Valium now which seems much more agreeable for me without the mental fog that Klonopin produced.

Just my personal experience with this for whatever it's worth.

 

[BobJillespie]

I've done benzo withdrawal twice, once 10 months 300mg diazepam a week, cold turkey. Boy did that suck; on the verge of a panic attack 24/7 for two weeks until i slowly improved over the next 6 months. Second time, midazolam, diazepam and alprazolam, various dosings, but essentially 50mg midazolam a week for a month, mainly iv but occasionally orally. That time I got help, starter suboxone for another issue which I think helped through benzo detox, and 30mg down every week-: 30-25-20-15-10-5-2.5-1.25-1-.5 off. Completely painless. But I do concede my length of abuse the second time wasn't particularly long, thank god.

It Can be done relatively painlessly. If you have a good treating doctor who doesn't rush you and you stick to the dosing to a T.

I have been on benzos for 20 years and was cold turkeyd I thought I was gonna die
A psychiatrist did this

Fuck that. You'll give me nightmares thinking about that. Cold turkey from 10 months was bad enough.How on earth did you get through it?

 

[bronson]

Yeah, yikes that isn't even remotely medically safe. It would have been a case of find a new doctor that would at the very least do a slow reduction had it been me.

 

[d3Xo-fan]

I'm prescribed 2mg alprazolam a day, but I only have to go to my rehab center on mondays, wednesdays and fridays, which means on mondays and wednesdays I get 4mg alprazolam which I usually take immediately and on fridays I get 6mg alprazolam. I can feel 4mg, but just barely. I can take 10mg and feel nice and calm, but not even close to passing out.

I've been on this cycle for 1.5+ years now, that is, 4mg monday, 4mg wednesday and 6mg friday. This means I don't take them every day, and I know every other day isn't really that much of an improvement, but would you say I'm addicted physically to alprazolam/benzos? I mean, I'm not stupid... how could I not be?

 

[qwe]

i think that inter-withdrawal could cause serious problems for you. around 1-3 years in, which is where you are at.

they should be giving you something with a longer duration.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

I'm prescribed 2mg alprazolam a day, but I only have to go to my rehab center on mondays, wednesdays and fridays, which means on mondays and wednesdays I get 4mg alprazolam which I usually take immediately and on fridays I get 6mg alprazolam. I can feel 4mg, but just barely. I can take 10mg and feel nice and calm, but not even close to passing out.

I've been on this cycle for 1.5+ years now, that is, 4mg monday, 4mg wednesday and 6mg friday. This means I don't take them every day, and I know every other day isn't really that much of an improvement, but would you say I'm addicted physically to alprazolam/benzos? I mean, I'm not stupid... how could I not be?

Wait, so you're taking

Monday - 4mg alprazolam
Tuesday - 0mg alprazolam
Wednesday - 4mg alprazolam
Thursday - 0mg alprazolam
Friday - 6mg alprazolam
Saturday - 0mg alprazolam
Sunday - 0mg alprazolam

And not experiencing withdrawal symptoms on the days you don't dose? Even on Sunday evening?

 

[Ashley]

Wait, so you're taking

Monday - 4mg alprazolam
Tuesday - 0mg alprazolam
Wednesday - 4mg alprazolam
Thursday - 0mg alprazolam
Friday - 6mg alprazolam
Saturday - 0mg alprazolam
Sunday - 0mg alprazolam

And not experiencing withdrawal symptoms on the days you don't dose? Even on Sunday evening?

I'd fit on the Sunday evening, more likely the Monday morning. For certain.

 

[d3Xo-fan]

I have gone over a week without experiencing withdrawals. And I do not experience them on the days I take 0mg, no not even sunday evening or mondays before I go get my dose. So I guess it could be slow metabolizing or maybe I'm not really physically addicted?