No. But it won’t fix the problem with the Ativan causing seizures from a fast taper or cold turkey.
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Positive The Tapering Support Thread v 2.0
- Thread starter Jerry Atrick
- Start date
Good. Valium lasts in your blood for a LOT longer than Ativan. Look it up…. “The Ashton Medtod”. It’s all about tapering benzos (Ativan)
Yes. Ativan is fast acting, and fast leaving. Valium lasts for a long time in your body. Ativan is like eating a Cheese Burger or or a drinking a Coke.Valium is like eating a large plate of pasta.
If your goal is to get away from all of this, then Valium id the best first step
Let’s focus on exactly what what you’re taking and how much. We have all made mistakes and are trying to get better.
Focus on the opiates first. Don’t change the Valium now except that you’ll need to cut it down to a smaller dose in the morning so that you can take more at night. Maybe eliminate the midday dose if possible and use it all for sleep at night. Morphine and oxy are basically the same when it comes to wd’s, and sleep will be your only break from the suffering.
Your past alcoholism isn’t a factor, but having a good doctor is a huge one.
Immodium is an opiate, same as oxy and morphine. It was originally developed as a pain medicine around 60 years ago. It was quickly dismissed for pain because it takes around 4 hours to start working. So… it was re-branded in low doses as an anti diarrhea medicine because all opiates slow down digestion. That’s why you’re probably constipated most days from the morphine and oxy. If you choose to switch then I can give good advice on dosage.
You’re lucky to have a sympathetic doctor. But whatever you do, DO NOT mention anything related to loperamide (Immodium), Kratom, or anything else you have researched. I don’t know if they just get their feelings hurt or if their worried about losing their license. The last thing you need is to get cut off, and that’s exactly what will happen if you even hint that you’re considering anything that isn’t prescribed. Play the victim. Beg for help. But don’t talk like you might have found a solution on your own.
Just remember that it took you 4 years to get here. It’s gonna take a bit of time to get back to where you want to be. You’ll find nothing but support in this forum. I’m guessing you’re desperate, but that needs to stop. It’s a marathon and if you burn too much energy at the beginning you’ll have nothing left for the finish line.
Focus on the opiates first. Don’t change the Valium now except that you’ll need to cut it down to a smaller dose in the morning so that you can take more at night. Maybe eliminate the midday dose if possible and use it all for sleep at night. Morphine and oxy are basically the same when it comes to wd’s, and sleep will be your only break from the suffering.
Your past alcoholism isn’t a factor, but having a good doctor is a huge one.
Immodium is an opiate, same as oxy and morphine. It was originally developed as a pain medicine around 60 years ago. It was quickly dismissed for pain because it takes around 4 hours to start working. So… it was re-branded in low doses as an anti diarrhea medicine because all opiates slow down digestion. That’s why you’re probably constipated most days from the morphine and oxy. If you choose to switch then I can give good advice on dosage.
You’re lucky to have a sympathetic doctor. But whatever you do, DO NOT mention anything related to loperamide (Immodium), Kratom, or anything else you have researched. I don’t know if they just get their feelings hurt or if their worried about losing their license. The last thing you need is to get cut off, and that’s exactly what will happen if you even hint that you’re considering anything that isn’t prescribed. Play the victim. Beg for help. But don’t talk like you might have found a solution on your own.
Just remember that it took you 4 years to get here. It’s gonna take a bit of time to get back to where you want to be. You’ll find nothing but support in this forum. I’m guessing you’re desperate, but that needs to stop. It’s a marathon and if you burn too much energy at the beginning you’ll have nothing left for the finish line.
smokeymcpot42088
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,619
LISTEN TO THIS. The only time my psychiatrist ever got a bit snippy with me was when i mentioned people being on bath salts; not even me. I think I did correlate people with adhd scripts to being buyers.....at any rate; while there he/she is the only master you serve.
Ill double down on that actually, once I mentioned I was taking benadryl to my sub doctor and he took a bit of offense in my opinion; asked me if I was taking more than the bottle directed. This is less notable as it is rehab/maintenance. Just remembered that. He was literally less pissed when I told him I had to take an adderall to shovel the snow to get there at 8 am. Granted it was a failed drugtest; but he didnt seem to care beyond "wow you idget"; and I was.
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First of all, understand that Immodium is an opiate. No different than oxy or morphine. SO… it is just as addictive as what you’re on already. The good thing about it is that it won’t make you fell “beautiful”. It will work very slowly and last a lot longer than the medication you’re taking now. But understand that your goal is to get away from your current medication permanently, correct? It will take a month or two to first transfer to Immodium, then taper off the Immodium. And even then, it won’t be much fun.
Second. Have you experienced full blown opiate wd’s? You need to understand what signs to look for that will tell you what to look for if you’re in withdrawal. If not, you NEED to do a science experiment on yourself. Just try 24 hours with zero morphine or oxy. You will feel like shit. Aching muscles, sweating, insomnia, etc. It’s important to do this because the worst thing to do is to be depressed from an argument with your mother and assume that it must be wd’s, then take more Immodium whenever you THINK it’s wd’s. Taking it for the wrong reason = loperamide dependence. And that shit has a much longer withdrawal cycle. (Ignore this if you’re already familiar with REAL wd's off those pills).
Third: Read the bottle you bought. It needs to be Loperamide Hydrochloride 2mg. If it doesn’t say that then it’s not the right thing
If 1,2,and 3 are all taken care of:
Wait until you’re in somewhat painful wd. It should take about 12 hours after you stop both the oxy and morphine. Whatever your total dose of both meds per day in mg is, cut that by 1/2 and take that all at once of Immodium. (Ex: 10mg x 3 per day oxy + 10mg x 3 per day of morphine = 60 mg per day of opiates per day, so you start with 30 mg of loperamide : 15 pills)
Do it on an empty stomach, or have a couple of crackers and a carbonated drink to settle your stomach if necessary. You really need to teach yourself how it works or you’ll get desperate and go right back to the pills. It takes about 4 hours to start working. If it doesn’t work after the 4 hours, take 1/2 the original amount and wait another 4 hours. And keep doing the 4 hours:1/2 amount until it works.The pills dissolve within about 30 minutes on an empty stomach but it takes a long time to affect your brain. Doing this the first time after a heavy meal is a mistake. After you understand how it works, you can do it however you like.
Again, DO NOT CHANGE YOUR DAILY ATIVAN INTAKE!!! Change it up so that you have extra at night for sleep. The Immodium will make you feel like your blood is sort of dirty, but it should stop the physical wd’s. Don’t take more unless your body feels like your bones are decomposing.
You’re at the top of the Empire State Building right now. At the bottom of each flight of stairs, you should feel tired and sore. If you don’t suffer at least a little, then you never climbed down (and there is NO elevator). You have to climb down or you will never walk home.
I’m here whenever you need more advice.
Second. Have you experienced full blown opiate wd’s? You need to understand what signs to look for that will tell you what to look for if you’re in withdrawal. If not, you NEED to do a science experiment on yourself. Just try 24 hours with zero morphine or oxy. You will feel like shit. Aching muscles, sweating, insomnia, etc. It’s important to do this because the worst thing to do is to be depressed from an argument with your mother and assume that it must be wd’s, then take more Immodium whenever you THINK it’s wd’s. Taking it for the wrong reason = loperamide dependence. And that shit has a much longer withdrawal cycle. (Ignore this if you’re already familiar with REAL wd's off those pills).
Third: Read the bottle you bought. It needs to be Loperamide Hydrochloride 2mg. If it doesn’t say that then it’s not the right thing
If 1,2,and 3 are all taken care of:
Wait until you’re in somewhat painful wd. It should take about 12 hours after you stop both the oxy and morphine. Whatever your total dose of both meds per day in mg is, cut that by 1/2 and take that all at once of Immodium. (Ex: 10mg x 3 per day oxy + 10mg x 3 per day of morphine = 60 mg per day of opiates per day, so you start with 30 mg of loperamide : 15 pills)
Do it on an empty stomach, or have a couple of crackers and a carbonated drink to settle your stomach if necessary. You really need to teach yourself how it works or you’ll get desperate and go right back to the pills. It takes about 4 hours to start working. If it doesn’t work after the 4 hours, take 1/2 the original amount and wait another 4 hours. And keep doing the 4 hours:1/2 amount until it works.The pills dissolve within about 30 minutes on an empty stomach but it takes a long time to affect your brain. Doing this the first time after a heavy meal is a mistake. After you understand how it works, you can do it however you like.
Again, DO NOT CHANGE YOUR DAILY ATIVAN INTAKE!!! Change it up so that you have extra at night for sleep. The Immodium will make you feel like your blood is sort of dirty, but it should stop the physical wd’s. Don’t take more unless your body feels like your bones are decomposing.
You’re at the top of the Empire State Building right now. At the bottom of each flight of stairs, you should feel tired and sore. If you don’t suffer at least a little, then you never climbed down (and there is NO elevator). You have to climb down or you will never walk home.
I’m here whenever you need more advice.
Sorry, I forgot that you switched from Ativan to Valium.
You’re incredibly lucky to have a sympathetic doctor.
Loperamide is either a perfect solution or a new problem. My instructions will either work or fail. You’ll know in about 2 days.
Hold onto any oxy you have that is extra, hold onto it and don’t tell your Dr. You might need it later.
You’re incredibly lucky to have a sympathetic doctor.
Loperamide is either a perfect solution or a new problem. My instructions will either work or fail. You’ll know in about 2 days.
Hold onto any oxy you have that is extra, hold onto it and don’t tell your Dr. You might need it later.
The difficulty with Immodium is that getting the beginning dose correct is hard, since it takes 4 hours for it to do it’s magic. Also, it stays in your system for around 2-4 days. So the pills you take on Monday are still contributing to the level of loperamide in your blood on Wednesday.
Also. it will block the effects of all other opiates. You will be tempted to add oxy or morphine as soon as you feel crappy. Don’t do it unless you’re giving up on Immodium completely.
There’s a psychological component to your situation. Feel like shit, take one pill, don’t feel like shit in 15 minutes. Immodium was abandoned as a pain medicine 60 years ago because it doesn’t work like that. You will need to retrain your brain over the next week or two. It’s going to be the hardest thing you can imagine.
Do you have someone at home who can help you with this? Someone who can be a bulldog and guard your pills so you can’t be tempted? It will go better if you have to admit that you’re giving up. (Unless you’re that rare person who has the self control to go the distance)
Also. it will block the effects of all other opiates. You will be tempted to add oxy or morphine as soon as you feel crappy. Don’t do it unless you’re giving up on Immodium completely.
There’s a psychological component to your situation. Feel like shit, take one pill, don’t feel like shit in 15 minutes. Immodium was abandoned as a pain medicine 60 years ago because it doesn’t work like that. You will need to retrain your brain over the next week or two. It’s going to be the hardest thing you can imagine.
Do you have someone at home who can help you with this? Someone who can be a bulldog and guard your pills so you can’t be tempted? It will go better if you have to admit that you’re giving up. (Unless you’re that rare person who has the self control to go the distance)
smokeymcpot42088
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,619
Listen to squeaky. How are you doing?
Down from 8mg bupe to 4mg. Cut from 6mg. Starting to feel not so perfect but the beggining of a taper is the time to make large cuts, imho.
Thank god for ganja. I will get back to you and no mistresses at some point!
Down from 8mg bupe to 4mg. Cut from 6mg. Starting to feel not so perfect but the beggining of a taper is the time to make large cuts, imho.
Thank god for ganja. I will get back to you and no mistresses at some point!
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Nas47
Road-Weary Traveler
Where are u Jerry Atrick?Descansar?Have a rest man.....u are good.Respect for u!
Nas47
Road-Weary Traveler
on what dose valium u are bro?Don't worry too much.I am on valium from many years.On 20-30mg dose a day.For a month I have tappered till 10mgs.Got bad headaches and terrible stifness in the neck few days....but pop some antimigraine pill and problem dissolved.Ocasionally got really bad inner tension.In that case helps me lyrica.75mg are enough to cope the symptoms.Tappered with 5mg every time.....at this time tapper also buprenorphine.Valium is not difficult to tapper and quit,if u do it slowly and don't rush...yeah that is me and at u problems could be quite different and difficult....but after all is absolutely possible to quit this.I have got one remission from more than a year without any benzo and as i remember it was not so difficult.Courage brother,courage!
smokeymcpot42088
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,619
I believe he said 30 mg of valium or 6 mg of lorazepam. Person seems to have a doctor that will taper at the speed they ask, really all should be fine if the doctor keeps his word.
Just make your cuts small, your dose is not insanely high. 10% cuts are reccomended but I might even go 5% a month if the doctor was completely on board.
jnowhere, it probably isnt a coincidence your doc apt is on the day you need a refill, don't sweat that. I would not skip 33% of my benzo intake which I believe would be one 10 mg dose right? Maybe try 25 mg, 27 ideally. As long as your doc is cool with your taper you will be fine. You may want to check your drinking just a bit as that stuff tears your body up.
I know I am prescribed exactly enough pills to make it 30 days on my prescribed dose, falls on a sunday (like last month) too bad for me. So I understand your stress 100%.
Just make your cuts small, your dose is not insanely high. 10% cuts are reccomended but I might even go 5% a month if the doctor was completely on board.
jnowhere, it probably isnt a coincidence your doc apt is on the day you need a refill, don't sweat that. I would not skip 33% of my benzo intake which I believe would be one 10 mg dose right? Maybe try 25 mg, 27 ideally. As long as your doc is cool with your taper you will be fine. You may want to check your drinking just a bit as that stuff tears your body up.
I know I am prescribed exactly enough pills to make it 30 days on my prescribed dose, falls on a sunday (like last month) too bad for me. So I understand your stress 100%.
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I had horrible pain, everywhere. Neck, back, legs, muscles, stomach, head. EVERYWHERE. It wasn’t until about a year after quitting that I realized the pills were causing 90% of that pain. Today I have pain, but it’s only in a couple of places. I had back surgeries…. so why did my head hurt? It was the pills creating pain so that I needed pills to stop it.
The wd’s from your oxy and morphine are probably causing the majority of your pain. You’ll find out when you’re completely done with them, but it will be a month or more after your last pill that those pains will stop.
You cannot go a full day without Ativan or you’ll have a seizure. Valium lasts a very long time in your body, so once a day is good. That’s why the Ashton method recommends Valium for tapering benzos.
We need to change the words we are using. Oxy and morphine are basically the same thing, just different strengths. Those are both opiates, so tapering each of them means adding them together and treating them as one project.
Valium and Ativan are also basically the same thing. The only difference is that Ativan works fast and stops working fast, but Valium works more slowly and keeps working for a long time.
Smokeymcpot said it best. Either the opiates (morphine + oxy) or the benzos (valium OR Ativan): get settled with what makes you comfortable and in 30 days you can reduce your daily dose by 10%. That’s the best way to do a long taper. And you recalculate your next month doses based on this month’s dose. For example:
If you’re taking 30 mg per day of oxy. Next month is 27 mg per day. So you would start over at 27 and go down to 24.3 mg the next month. Then the following month you start over and drop it to 21.87 mg. Etc…… I’m using very specific math that is impossible to follow when breaking up pills.
If it doesn’t go well with breaking up the pills, you can easily dissolve them in warm water and measure out your doses that way. Oxy and morphine are easy to mix with water. The Valium or Ativan won’t do it as well, so crush them up into a fine powder and mix them in warm water. For each dose you’ll need to shake/mix it well and then measure out your dose.
This is a game of percentages, not milligrams. Going from 30mg/day of oxy to 27 mg/day will not feel like much (that’s a 10% drop), but going from 6 mg/day to 3 mg/day will kick your ass because it’s a 50% drop. Each time you change your dose you’ll have to do the math again. Whatever you were taking yesterday x 90% = the amount you will take tomorrow. That’s how it works and why it takes forever.
It’s good that you’re determined. This will be your secret project and you will kick ass at it!!! And you’re not alone. You have tons of support here.
You CANNOT skip a whole day of Valium. But it’s not a problem as long as you still have Ativan. If you run out of Valium, use the Ativan. Use 1mg in the morning, 1mg in the afternoon, and 3mg at night (so you can sleep). Your goal is to begin a taper that will stop a seizure and also get you some sleep. It’s not as bad as you imagine.
As for your OCD…. Use it to your advantage and become a math/science nerd. Put your energy into making sure that you’re getting your doses on time and in the perfect amount. Treat yourself like you’re the doctor and the patient is you. Pretty soon, you’ll be doing “10% math” in your sleep
There are options that are valid but may be in a "grey" area that alas I cannot post but research is a MF and there is a lot here and elsewhere on the webs.
Hope this goal is to drop one at a time. It seems by the post you seem reasonable and there probably wasn't a need to post this.
Maybe someone else finds it helpful....
J
You can NOT skip a whole 24 hours and go without Ativan or Valium. Too bad you lost your Ativan. Take the Valium at night to sleep. If you skip a dose m, you’ll likely have a seizure. And those can be deadly. People die all if the time quitting benzodiazepines cold turkey.
I was in your shoes. 90-130mgs oxy every day. In constant pain between doses. I thought it was a life sentence, and the longer I used the pills, the more placed I hurt.
I’m not saying you’re pains were the same as mine. Just that it took months after I quit oxy to find out that those pills were a shady Dr’s dream. They told me that the wd’s lasted a few days. After a week, any pain I had was a real injury and I would need pills to stop it. But the truth is that he was keeping me addicted whether he knew it or not. It actually took months for the physical effects of the wd’s to go away. That was when I was able to figure out where my actual pain was and how bad. I still hurt…. but it was 90% less and in a dozen less places in my body than it was even 3 weeks after quitting.
It sounds like your life will cease to exist if you’re stuck in oxy wd for more than a few days. I would do a very slow taper if I was in your shoes. Use the Valium and taper off the one you want gone first. It’s not going to be easy but it’s definitely doable.
spyfish
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2016
- Messages
- 31
Hi 
Been on 10mg (slow release 1-2 time a day) Oxy for 2-3 months, not daily all the time, but apparently often enough for getting withdrawals. Also add pregabalin when pain is at worst. All prescribed.
Day 1-2 was bearable, feeling unwell, anxiety, mild diarrhea and restless legs. Almost no sleep even with Zopiclone, and day 3 Nitrazepam (Dont have much tolerance)
Day 4, crippling depression. Suicidal, really hellish. Took a Tramadol and within an hour I was fine and even High. 10’mg oxy still gets me noticeably high.
Im quite surprised, didnt expect this as ive been taking regular breaks of a few says and even a full week without much issue. But last “on” period was over a week.
I assume it shouldn’t be too hard to get off this, but please need some advise. I have lots of tramadol, Tianeptine and access to Kratom. Problem is I need to be in a good state of mind for the next 3 weeks as im traveling to see my long time LDR future wife.
Only when i feel like shit I have the urge to take (or when pain gets unbearable ) Just to be clear ive taken it for pain management, and the pain and finally receding slowly so time to get off.
How can i get trough the next 3 weeks, and then get completely off. On this trip I have with me Oxy, Tramadol, Zopiclone and diazepam.
Would withdrawals tramadol be milder than oxy if i use that to get trough these next weeks?
Been on 10mg (slow release 1-2 time a day) Oxy for 2-3 months, not daily all the time, but apparently often enough for getting withdrawals. Also add pregabalin when pain is at worst. All prescribed.Day 1-2 was bearable, feeling unwell, anxiety, mild diarrhea and restless legs. Almost no sleep even with Zopiclone, and day 3 Nitrazepam (Dont have much tolerance)
Day 4, crippling depression. Suicidal, really hellish. Took a Tramadol and within an hour I was fine and even High. 10’mg oxy still gets me noticeably high.
Im quite surprised, didnt expect this as ive been taking regular breaks of a few says and even a full week without much issue. But last “on” period was over a week.
I assume it shouldn’t be too hard to get off this, but please need some advise. I have lots of tramadol, Tianeptine and access to Kratom. Problem is I need to be in a good state of mind for the next 3 weeks as im traveling to see my long time LDR future wife.
Only when i feel like shit I have the urge to take (or when pain gets unbearable ) Just to be clear ive taken it for pain management, and the pain and finally receding slowly so time to get off.
How can i get trough the next 3 weeks, and then get completely off. On this trip I have with me Oxy, Tramadol, Zopiclone and diazepam.
Would withdrawals tramadol be milder than oxy if i use that to get trough these next weeks?
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Your best bet is to go back to your previous routine with your oxy. The worst wd’s last about a week but the lingering depression will be about a month. Even if the other drugs are helping, you’ll want to be at 100% for the next 3 weeks and that will be nearly impossible without your oxy. You’re going to want to be intimate without distractions, and it’s going to put a strain on your relationship when that doesn’t happen.Hi
Day 1-2 was bearable, feeling unwell, anxiety, mild diarrhea and restless legs. Almost no sleep even with Zopiclone, and day 3 Nitrazepam (Dont have much tolerance)
Day 4, crippling depression. Suicidal, really hellish. Took a Tramadol and within an hour I was fine and even High. 10’mg oxy still gets me noticeably high.
Im quite surprised, didnt expect this as ive been taking regular breaks of a few says and even a full week without much issue. But last “on” period was over a week.
I assume it shouldn’t be too hard to get off this, but please need some advise. I have lots of tramadol, Tianeptine and access to Kratom. Problem is I need to be in a good state of mind for the next 3 weeks as im traveling to see my long time LDR future wife.
Only when i feel like shit I have the urge to take (or when pain gets unbearable ) Just to be clear ive taken it for pain management, and the pain and finally receding slowly so time to get off.
How can i get trough the next 3 weeks, and then get completely off. On this trip I have with me Oxy, Tramadol, Zopiclone and diazepam.
Would withdrawals tramadol be milder than oxy if i use that to get trough these next weeks?
The wd’s you have already described will be the same story in 3 weeks. Insomnia, restless legs, diarrhea, etc. After that, you can start a tapering plan or go cold turkey. While you are with your LDR you can be honest about your situation if you choose, but you will not be able to hide any wd symptoms especially if you plan to spend the nights together.
Whatever you decide, there’s plenty of advice and support here. Good luck on your trip!