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Ethnobotanicals The Small & Handy Sinicuichi (Heimia Salicifolia) Thread

Don't think you're gonna get entactogenic, empathetic or introspective effects from Sincuichi. It's not a traditional psychedelic. It acts on your cholinergic system, more like DPH or Datura, but in an atypical way.

Source?

justsayknow said:
is there a way to grow it or obtain it for personal use?

Are you referring to salvia? Because yes, of course it can be grown or obtained. The 'obtaining' part is not an appropriate discussion for Bluelight, but growing it is moreso. I grew salvia for a few years. I purchased a small cutting and was able to force it to grow into several largish plants by building a small, plastic 'greenhouse' for it (I live in the south-east of Australia, not ideal for growing salvia). It took a long time to grown and was not especially potent. The plants were damaged by a friend of mine, so I took a small cutting and killed/extracted the rest (well, I watched this happen) and yielded the most terrifying substance known to man. :D Salvia divinorum is easily the most unpredictable and intense psychoactive out there, and it literally grows on trees :)
 
Don't think you're gonna get entactogenic, empathetic or introspective effects from Sincuichi. It's not a traditional psychedelic. It acts on your cholinergic system, more like DPH or Datura, but in an atypical way.

How do you know this?

From what I've read no one even knows enough about it to say how it works.
 
maybe; also totally unrelated i heard a trip report of a person who tripped on HBWR and his feelings of pain turned into emotion and he said it was like super healingful and beautiful and introspective and stuffs.

I don't think this is the same sort of pain. It was a very specific, very physical muscular burning/pain. Totally unlike psychosomatic pain, it seemed like a poisoning reaction. I wasn't even in emotional pain at all, it was just physical. It hurt to breathe, that was the worst part. Really unpleasant, it definitely puts me off ever trying it again in any form.

Traditional use calls for making a sun tea, where you let it soak in water in the sun for a day or two and let it ferment slightly too. It may be that the sunlight exposure transforms something (hence "sun opener"), or maybe the fermentation. I simmered it to make the tea and let it sit in the fridge overnight and then drank it... not the same process. I had auditory effects, no physical though, and nothing pleasant in terms of a high, but the overwhelming muscular pain ruined any potential recreational benefit.
 
Active Constituents:
Vertine (cryogenine) is generally regarded as the primary psychoactive component and is also generally the most abundant constituent of alkaloidal extracts. Clinically demonstrated effects include anticholinergic, antiinflammatory, antispasmodic, hyperglycemic, hypotensive, sedative, tranquilizer, and vasodilator activity. There is another chemical called cryogenine which should not be confused with vertine.
https://www.erowid.org/plants/sinicuichi/sinicuichi_faq.shtml
 
Cryogenine, badass name but what does it have to do with cryogenics .. :?

I don't recall that this is one of the herbs from smartshops that I tried in my early days, but it doesn't sound like something I would wanna take.

Mysterious stuff. Also it would really suck to be a shaman in training that gets the reaction from this that Xorkoth got!! I would guess that extreme muscle soreness would interfere with your divination ;p

Anyway I centralized this thread as per - sort of - request..

P.S. maybe erowid should classify this as masochistic. No but seriously not everyone may have an equally bad reaction, it is perhaps unfair to pull this out of perspective. The question is though: is it worth taking the chance considering the meager promise and are you willing to?
 
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It's also quite possible that fermenting it in the sun as per traditional use would eliminate something that causes the soreness... I am not going to try it though, my one trial put me off completely. That muscle soreness was EXTREME, some of the worst pain I have ever felt. It hurt to breathe, I could barely walk, and it lasted a whole day before it started to get better (I was sore for I think 3 days but after the first it wasn't too bad). Also weed didn't work AT ALL during that day, and I felt dysphoric and strange, and my hearing was fucked up.
 
Would it be against the rules if I described an experience I had many years ago smoking an herbal mixture and asked people their personal guess about what they think it might have been?

I have a strong suspicion that Sinicuichi may have been in it from my experience but I have heard that Drug-ID threads/questions are not allowed here though I am not really sure why in a case like this one since it's just pure speculation.

It was an extremely interesting experience and though a bit frightening at the time I kind of wish I could have access to that stuff so I could try it again.

Talk about an unexpected and short but powerful experience none the less.
 
After reading all the reports of extreme muscular pain and weakness from sinicuichi, I knew it was something I needed to try.

J/k though I just wanted to compare the auditory effects to DiPT and was willing to withstand a little bit of pain to get there.

Yesterday, 10g of dried leaves were added to a cup. 20oz of boiling water poured over top. Mixture was periodically stirred vigourously for the rest of the day as it sat in direct sunlight (16:00 onwards). The mixture was left overnight, so it caught the morning sun as well. Leaves were filtered out, and the tea was consumed starting at 12:50pm and ending at 13:25. The taste is quite pleasant; it tastes like the tea equivalent of an aged brandy.

14:10. No effect discernable from placebo. I feel quite sore, but I did earlier because of intense exercise two days ago so it might just be that.

14:20. I smoke a bowl of it and feel mildly relaxed, but in a weird kind of way. It's not clear if I accidentally combusted a very small amount of cannabis resin in the process.

14:25. There is some kind of subtle weird downwards shift/inharmonicity, as if music is changing key as it plays! I notice it on only on some music. I think it's just been shifted down a semitone.

14:30. I smoke a bit more since that seems to be working. Everything sounds more muffled now.

14:50. Seemingly nothing much happening. Back to baseline. That is, if it wasn't just a trick I played on myself to begin with.

15:00. I go downstairs to put on a load of laundry and run into my roommate. Talking to him, I notice that both of our voices are pitched down by 3 or 4 semitones. After noticing basically no effect on music anymore, this is quite surprising. This effect appears to fade as we continue our conversation, perhaps as I become more accustomed to the timbre of the human voice.

15:15. I decide to bike over to the mall to get some food, as I skipped lunch earlier. It's about 15 minutes each way, and despite my muscles being sore, exercise does not seem to aggravate it. I notice it hurts to fill my lungs and my throat feels a bit sore. Flexing affected muscles seems to temporarily eliminate any soreness.

15:30. I arrive at the mall and get some spicy potato noodle seafood soup (that is, noodles made out of potatos). The spice does not cause any extra pain in my throat, confirming my suspicion that the pain caused by the drug is mental and not physical; it is causing pain rather than causing harm. This I can deal with. It basically does not bother me anymore as it becomes clear it is just an illusion.

16:15. I bike back home. There is pain but it makes me feel strong like a Mayan warrior.

16:30. I'm back at home and the effect on music is now pronounced. There's about 3 semitones of downwards shift. This is clearly a pitch shift (leaving harmonic relationships intact) and not a frequency shift like DiPT. It does not produce any of the dissonance or tinnitus of DiPT. Everything just sounds lower. I think next time I try this I will increase the dose slightly and combine it with DiPT to see if anything interesting arises from the combination.

16:50. I have been listening to music since 16:30 and the effect has not changed in any way. Yet, it only seems to work on certain music. There is basically no effect on acoustic music but a strong effect on electronic music. It seems as if the downwards shift is proportional to the harmonic density of a sound. Bass music is affected most strongly. The songs Linkan or Automatas by Goto80 is a particularly good example - the sounds used in that song are so harmonically dense that it is profoundly shifted and sounds a bit out of tune and muffled due to varying spectral density breaking harmonic relationships. Seems that the sounds of the Commodore 64 are accompanying the sinicuichi quite nicely.

It's worth noting that the effect only works because it affects only my perception of actual sound and not how I imagine sounds to be (or vice versa?). If it affected both, would I be able to notice any change at all? I think this is basically the same with psychedelics. The remaining integrity of memory access allows us to determine what is a hallucination and what is not.

17:30. The muscular soreness continues to become worse as I sit. Moving around and stretching gives me temporary relief at the cost of increased instantaenous pain. Notably it hurts quite a bit to touch my hair.

18:30. Basically no change in effects. Kratom in completely ineffective against the "imaginary" pain. I took some creatine and magnesium; maybe those will help.

20:00. Pitch shift has decreased slightly in intensity. Still sore but I'm able to ignore it by sitting still and surfing the interwebs.

21:00. Audio is back to normal, and my body feels a lot better now. Pain is subsiding.

So, pretty much what others have reported... Luckily the pain was manageable for me. I want to do it again but next time I will leave it in the sun for longer and combine with DiPT to see if there is any synergy.
 
I suspect, it might be acting as an anticholinesterase, it feels...similar, to anticholinesterases, and also, I've had the dubious honor of a 'bioassay' of widow spider venom, after one of my pets got pissy, and a brown widow had sunk her fangs into me, Latrodectus venom causes a massive release of acetylcholine, and similar effects to sinicuichi. In fact, extremely similar.

Excruciating pain, barely able to walk a few feet to piss in a pot for several days, if you want to know what being nerve-gassed in 'sarin-lite edition' is like, sinicuichi might just be for you. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch it again if you paid me in extra bollocks.

In fact, there is an acid-base workup of the stuff sitting in my lab, its been stuck there for at least a decade, and I very, very much doubt it will ever see the light of day again, and just sit there, moldering away in pet.ether until the devil himself might come to claim it personally, for it is of his handiwork and no mistake, from my experience with it. Ugh. Noxious doesn't even begin to describe it.

I'd almost state that its a cholinesterase blocker, its identical subjectively to the likes of galantamine and huperzine-A and there is a vast similarity to a widow bite.
 
For me the muscle pain was so extreme, not right away, but after like 8 hours, and it lasted for a good 2 whole days, to the point that I could barely walk. The pitch shift made music all sound just somewhat wrong, poorer in quality. Mentally I felt bad, but I think it was just because of the pain, and also because the pitch shift lasted at least 2 days too, and I was starting to feel like I had damaged my perception of music and it made me feel really depressed. I'll certainly never touch the stuff again, it felt like poison to me. I wonder if you got less of the bad effects because you fermented it in the sun for a bit? I didn't at all. I believe in the reports I have heard that didn't have negative effects and had a brightening of the vision and an entheogenic quality, the tea was fermented for more like 2 days. I might be remembering wrong but that's my impression.
 
Sounds very similar to what happened to me. Feels a LOT like there is some sort of anticholinesterase in there, at least the unfermented stuff. Tastes like shite too.

And fucked if I ever want to revisit that. No way, no way in hell. I doubt that A/B will ever even be opened and worked up.
 
Sounds about right. I hope that in the future, we will discover that the chemicals causing the auditory and cholinergic effects are disjoint.
 
I never had any effects from sinicuichi, positive or negative, infusion or pyrolization. Same goes for the repulsively bitter Calea zacatechichi.
 
Never tried Sinicuichi. I have tried Calea Zacatechichi. Never had lucid dreaming. And wow is it bitter.

I still am interested in these names that we have heard for years but write off. Ever since Salvia Divinorum I do believe we will find more that we said were not too active. Believe it of not I have high hopes for Mulungu and even chamomile. Ever since I grew my own and made a strong tea I realized it was not placebo. But somewhere in some of these oldies but goodies we'll find another strong psychedelic like Salvia Divinorum. :) (fingers crossed)
 
After reading through the thread, I'm wondering if any of you have worked with fresh material, not dried crap sold online. There's at least one highly psychoactive plant I know of that becomes almost worthless after a few days. Something similar might be at work here. The "psychedelic" component compounds may degrade into something toxic.

As an aside, mulungu can be quite a treat, but don't overdo it, given the toxicity of closely related trees
 
at least one highly psychoactive plant I know of that

Could you share which one?

Honestly the sum total of the reports around this one have made me speculate that it may be misidentified, or that its status as a psychoactive plant among the Aztecs is in some way based on a mistranslation or misapprehension. Could also be that we 21st-century Westerners aren't getting it right, and are missing something that was totally obvious to the worshippers of Xochipilli.
 
With Mulungu, I would guess that it MAY at least possess potential to be toxic in overdose. Related trees in the genus Erythrina, some of them contain compounds which act as non-depolarizing nicotinic antagonists at the neuromuscular junction type NAChRs, in other words, they possess paralytic activity of a nature resembling that of curare.

I would guess that the psychoactive plant which degrades to uselessness (unless one wishes to extract norephedrine from it to use in a synthesis of 4-methylaminorex) within days, is Catha edulis, Khat/Qat. It can be kept for a few days in a fridge but not for long, because it contains cathinone, a beta-ketone primary amine, methcathinone does not suffer from this problem, due to the N-alkylation, but cathinone primary amines are very unstable, dimerizing to form inactive pyrazine compounds, this reaction being irreversible. Freshly picked its active fully, likewise when kept cold for a couple of days after first being picked, but much longer than a few days at most, the cathinone will have dimerized, and only the norephedrine/norpseudoephedrine content will be left, aside from the aforementioned pyrazine garbage, and the khat thus becomes useless for its intended purpose.]

I am inclined to agree about those theories as to the aztecs, it is certainly, quite obviously not meant to be used as an infusion of dried plant matter without fermentation, that much is obvious. I am almost certain, that if this is done, the compounds in it that affect the body if the plant Heimia salicifolia is used dried, infused and not fermented, that they, or at least one such biologically active compound is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, or else that it possesses effects as an acetylcholine secretagogue, like the venom of the spiders of the genus Latrodectus. Because it feels EXACTLY like either poisoning by a nerve agent, or the effects caused by a bite from one of the widow spiders, black widows, brown widows etc. I'd bet money on it being one of these two modes of action. I would guess that an anticholinesterase is much more likely than an acetylcholine releasing agent, but only because there are a fair few anticholinesterases in nature, but acetylcholine releasing agents are extremely rare, there are only seven that I know of, alpha-latroinsectotoxin, beta-latrotoxin, gamma-latrotoxin, delta-latrotoxin, epsilon-latrotoxin, alpha-latrotoxin (this is a different chemical entity to alpha-latroinsectotoxin, the majority of these are insect-specific, with alpha-latrotoxin being a toxin specifically targeted at killing vertebrates, there is also an alpha-latrocrustatotoxin, targeting specifically, crustaceans. Something I find very strange indeed, given most crustaceans are aquatic and posses a shell which the tiny fangs of a widow could never hope to penetrate. Pill-bugs, woodlice perhaps might be the target as the critters are land living, although, they still have armor,live on the ground away from widow spiders webs.
mg for mg, the venom of the black widow spiders is of a greater lethality than that of cobras, although being both a spider, of small size, and at that, one of araneomorph type 'design' rather than a mygalomorph, which tend to be much larger than araneomorph spiders, the difference between the two groups is that araneomorph spiders have chelicera (fangs) which are oriented such as they pinch together on the horizontal axis, akin to a pair of blacksmith's pincer tongs, a nipping sort of action when they bite, and the araneomorph spiders tend, generally, to be much smaller than the mygalomorphs.

Examples would be for instance, Latrodectus, the black, brown, red widows, the false widows of the genus Steatoda, and your common garden orb-weaver spiders as well as the ubiquitous 'daddy longlegs' or house spider (note the colloquial term daddy longlegs can also be applied to harvestman species, these are not true spiders and are not venomous and pose absolutely no threat to anybody)

Mygalomorphs can be, and usually are, much MUCH larger than their araneomorph relatives and have a fang orientation which strike vertically downwards, akin to a pair of daggers being used to stab a man in the back in an overhand strike, being raised then plunged vertically downwards. Most of the really dangerous venomous spiders are mygalomorphs, although two of the worlds deadliest are araneomorphs of significant size, such as the brazillian wandering spiders (genus Phoneutria, a group of large, very fast and EXTREMELY foul tempered wee bastards, that have even been known, after someone attempted to squash one with a broom, to, rather than get squished, to charge their attacker, legging it up the broom, carrying on up the handle in an attempt to bite their assailant!.

Other examples of mygalomorphs would be the australian funnelwebs (Atrax, Hadronyche), mouse-spiders (Missulena), and wishbone spiders (Aname).

These are araneomorph spiders, but are big, very fast runners and possessed of both a very potent, medically significant venom which is quite capable of killing a healthy adult male human if bitten, their venom acting in various ways dependent upon species, one of the toxins for example acting as an unselective blocker of voltage gated calcium channels, blocking both glutamate release and also blocking reuptake, as well as blocking uptake of calcium ions, and acting as a serotonin 5HT4 receptor agonist and causing release of substance P and other proinflammatory, pain inducing neuropeptides. An unfortunate side effect, aside from paralysis and potentially death, is priapism, in other words, an out of control, very long lasting massive boner that does not subside and can even result in serious damage to or even loss of if untreated, a man's Theresa May.)

The deadliest spider in the world is also a large araneomorph, the members of the genus Sicarius, or six-eyed sand spiders, they are related to Loxosceles, the recluse spiders, although they contain orders of magnitude greater quantities of their extremely potent flesh-rotting, necrotizing sphingomyelinase-D based venom, which has been compared, in the few people known to have been bitten by these spiders to be at least as deadly as the bite of a puff-adder. Two bites I know of, one resulted in the guy dying, IIRC after catastrophic disseminated intravascular coagulation and destruction of erythrocytes, the other one had his arm rotted off. The bite from these spiders essentially flays you alive, dissolves your flesh and causes your blood to clot in your veins, causing thromboses throughout the body and haemolysis. Its like arachnid Ebola, combined with stevens-johnson syndrome added on to the venom of one of the more highly toxic species of viper, or taipan/tiger snake venom.

Luckily people don't come into contact with them unless they know the spiders are there, mainly when spider enthusiasts keep Sicarius species as pets. Not sure which is THE most toxic among the genus but all in all, they are the deadliest spiders known to man, if you do get bitten. The worst thing, is that if you do, there is absolutely nothing that medics can do to cure you, there is no antivenin. Supportive care and painkillers are all that can be done to help a victim bitten by these spiders, although hobbyists report them not to be aggressive, some people even handle theirs by hand! although they are reportedly shy, they are also lightening-quick runners, and large tall tanks are needed to prevent them getting out by taking a run up and hurling themselves up the side of the glass tank walls)

Anyhow, as for sinicuichi, it'd not surprise me one tiny bit if either the plant known as the sun opener is misidentified, since there aren't any aztecs around anymore we can just go and ask about it, or if it isn't, that it requires special preparation in order to detoxify it, like say, fly agaric does, I can't imagine the aztec people would waste their time consuming a foul tasting potion that did nothing but make them feel like giants with giant baseball bats had just run them over in a tank, before getting out and beating the everloving shite out of them with said giant sized bats.

Other examples would be the australian funnelwebs (Atrax, Hadronyche), mouse-spiders (Missulena), and wishbone spiders (Aname)
 
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I wonder if the traditional "sun tea" has less side effects from the UV light breaking a double bond in some otherwise toxic component or components...
 
Yeah I kinda suspect that, or else a similar sort of change resulting from fermentation.
 
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