" The Road To Eleusis : Unveiling the Secret Mysteries " ???

[max_freakout]

it is important not to commit the 'mono plant fallacy' when you are thinking about the role of entheogens in the origins and history of religion.

This thread is leaning heavily towards the mono plant fallacy - talking as if mushrooms are the one and only entheogen. There are many entheogenic plants throughout the world besides mushrooms, see for example Ratch's book 'encyclopedia of psychoactive plants' - magical mind-altering plants occur in abundance right across the world. For example the morning glory plant which is a source of LSA, grows in abundance right across Europe. It is very unlikely that nobody would have ever realised that eating a bunch of morning glory seeds makes you trip. Perhaps the Eleusinian kykeon sacrament was a mixture of mushrooms and morning glory seeds in wine? That would have made the mystery initiates at Eleusis trip balls, and both these plants would have been easily available to anyone with a rudimentary botanical knowledge, morning glories are particularly easy to identify because of their recognisable flowers. Rinella's book is very instructive about this, he emphasises the highly sophisticated ethnobotanical knowledge of the ancient Greeks, they had an entire pharmakon of plant medicines, they were masters of plant ethnobotany.

The basic entheogen position is that tripping is the origin and essence of all religion and all mythology, not just on mushrooms but all the magical plants. Humans have always been in the presence of entheogenic plants, and the entheogenic awareness has always existed to some degree in the entheogen-using section of the population.

There is nothing unique or special about Mexico's history of shamanic mushroom use, the entire world has a history of psychoactive plant use, people have always known how to identify the magical plants and use them to have magical mind-transforming experiences.

 

[Ismene]

You're assuming people back then could tell the difference between something that makes you trip and a poison.

The basic entheogen position is that tripping is the origin and essence of all religion and all mythology

That's complete bollocks. Religions can form without tripping. That's the thinking of someone born in the 20th century.

There is nothing unique or special about Mexico

Yeah there is. If you bend over to pick up a mushroom in Mexico it's more likely than not to be psilocybin. It also has psychedelic cacti that grows nowhere else. You think it's a coincidence that pretty much the only genuine evidence for psychedelic use comes from there?

 

[Vurtual]

Henbane is one in the uk that there's evidence of quite old use of if i recall (for witches' flying ointments). People do find out which ones are the poisons - it's passed on in folklore, which can be pretty strong and accurate over time - after all people decoded ayahuasca. Many of the european 'witches' were thought by some to just be local women who had good traditional herbal knowledge, that the priests didn't like not having power over (maybe the priests/monks at the time trying to dominate 'medicine' themselves).

 

[max_freakout]

You're assuming people back then could tell the difference between something that makes you trip and a poison.

of course they could, they weren't stupid, they could easily recognise the difference between tripping out and seeing magical visions on entheogens, versus getting sick and dying on poisons. Rinella makes this point very clear - the ancient greeks had a complex and sophisticated understanding of plant botany, they could tell the difference between entheogenic plants, poisonous plants, medicinal plants, edible plants etc. etc, they made wide use of plants for a wide range of purposes, including tripping out in entheogenic ceremonies like at Eleusis.

Religions can form without tripping.

the crucial point that leads to the entheogen theory about the origin and meaning of religion is that it is impossible to ergonomically access intense religious/mystical experience without taking drugs. The only way to trip on demand is to take drugs.

If you bend over to pick up a mushroom in Mexico it's more likely than not to be psilocybin.

This ^ is highly inaccurate, there are a small handful of psilocybe species that are native to Mexico which grow in specific kinds of environment, alongside thousands of other edible and non-edible species of mushroom, picking random mushrooms in Mexico would be very unlikely to lead to finding psilocybin mushrooms.

Also, as Kat Harrison said, the main group of shamanic mushroom users in mexico only use one particular variety of mushroom - psilocybe mexicana. This particular type on grows in very specific environments, so again this would not ever be found by simply picking random mushrooms.

It also has psychedelic cacti that grows nowhere else. You think it's a coincidence that pretty much the only genuine evidence for psychedelic use comes from there?

^ this is also highly inaccurate, there is abundant evidence for ancient use of psychoactive plants right across the world, not just in mexico, there is nothing special or unique about mexico. For example the South american shamanic ayahuasca-using tribes, who were able to isolate the unique combination of ayahuasca plants from among the millions of different plant species that grow in the rainforest.

Human beings have always been taking entheogens and tripping.

 

[Ismene]

of course they could, they weren't stupid

It isn't a matter of stupidity. If you'd never heard of anything like a psychedelic before and ate one you'd probably think you had been poisoned. Whether you could "enjoy" it in those circumstances is highly doubtful.

it is impossible to ergonomically access intense religious/mystical experience without taking drugs

But it clearly is. I could take you to any one of a thousand fundamentalist christian church meetings tomorrow where preachers lay hands on people who collapse in hysterics or think they can "walk" again. Look on youtube at people "speaking in tongues". You don't call that an intense religious experience?

there are a small handful of psilocybe species

No, there's at least 30. That's quite a bit more than the 1 in the UK.

there is abundant evidence for ancient use of psychoactive plants right across the world

No there isn't. Not reliable evidence like there is for mesoamerica. There's a lot of half-baked theories but that's not the same.

Human beings have always been taking entheogens and tripping

Lets qualify that a little. Some humans have - almost exclusively in mesoamerica.

 

[Ismene]

Henbane is one in the uk that there's evidence of quite old use of if i recall (for witches' flying ointments).

Didn't they put it up their fannies?

 

[Vurtual]

Some stuff about prehistoric uk henbane and some other stuff (from here):

Balfarg, Scotland: The Balfarg henge is a part of a larger prehistoric ceremonial complex in Fife, Scotland. grooved-ware pottery found at the site dates to around 2900 BC. Some of the vessels may have been used to hold black Henbane (Hyoscyamus niger) which is a poison but also a powerful hallucinogen. This discovery is briefly explored in the journal Antiquity in the article ' The use of henbane as a hallucinogen at Neolithic ritual sites: a re-evaluation' (1)

Carrowmore, Ireland. (Site 4) - Dated about 4,600 BC, contains the remains of a passage-tomb which may be the earliest in the country. Such an early date, however, is controversial. This tomb is one of the smallest complete sites in the cemetery and produced the remains of over 65 fragments of antler pins, including seven pieces with mushroom-shaped heads, as well as over 30 kilos of cremated human bone.

Skara Brae, Orkneys: Hallucinogenic Alcohol: 5,000 year old traces of cereal-based fermented alcohol - laced with hemlock and henbanewere discovered near Skara Brae in the Neolithic metropolis of Orkney. (Gourlay, 2001)

However important, alcohol is nowhere near the full story of induced Neolithic consciousness change. In many cultures, psychoactive drugs and their effects are viewed as vehicles for making contact with other worlds, in particular those of the ancestors in the context of temple-centred ceremony. Rudgley (1999, p.137-141) has proposed cannabis and/or opium as likely candidates in the early western Neolithic and a growing body of opinion points in the same direction. (Devereux, 1997: Sherratt, 1997; Thomas, J., 1998) The Orkney brew described above, it will be remembered, was blended with henbane and hemlock. Henbane, bearer of the trance-inducing, hallucinatory (and extremely toxic) drug Hyoscyamine, is one of what Sherratt (1996) terms “the Saturnine herbs”. Sherratt recounts how during the 1980’s henbane was recovered from carbonised Neolithic porridge, eaten from Grooved Ware pottery in the context of a mortuary structure, Balfarg/Balbirnie in Fife, Scotland. Discovery in the 1920's of three burial chambers at the Jersey La Houghe Bie site adds weight to Sherratt's thesis. David Keys reports that the chambers "...contained 21 pottery vessels marked with a burnt, resin-like material. Archaeologists believed that this was from drugs, possibly opium or hashish." (6)

Granted there's no direct archaeological evidence of mushrooms i know of, as you say, but i can't believe the locals who may have appreciated qualities of henbane would have missed liberty caps (and if they can discover the properties of henbane without dying too much, the mushrooms are much safer)

 

[Xorkoth]

It isn't a matter of stupidity. If you'd never heard of anything like a psychedelic before and ate one you'd probably think you had been poisoned. Whether you could "enjoy" it in those circumstances is highly doubtful.

Why would you think they wouldn't have known? People would have been taking them at least for spiritual/religious reasons since time immemorial. Yes, if you had never heard of it before, you might be quite alarmed, but I think if psychedelic plants grew in your environment, and you were part of a culture that is attuned to its environment, you'd be aware that such things existed.

 

[Ismene]

What makes you think that someone living 2000 years ago would've had exactly the same reaction to a psychedelic as a keen psychonaut westerner living in the 21st century?

Yes, if you had never heard of it before, you might be quite alarmed.

I think that's an understatement. If you dosed a non-user living in the 21st century with an unknown psychedelic I imagine he'd be utterly terrified and convinced he had been poisoned. What sheer terror they would've thought 2000 years ago is beyond our comprehension.

 

[Vurtual]

By the same token do you think the ayahuasca recipie was given to man by aliens? (and if not how did they ever work it out?). This goes for any psychedelic, medicine, herbal remedy

Human culture has been on this planet for 50 thousand years (or a million for 'hominid' culture) - collective 'folk' wisdom/memory over those sort of timescales can be a very powerful thing (it's the 'giants' that our current culture/intuition/instincts stand on the shoulder of).

Plus you're a bit insulting to the humans of 2000 years ago - there was a very sophisticated culture in uk/europe at that time which had been developing for at least 4000 years already; this was part of a general european culture that was connected by complex trade routes - these weren't isolated 'ignorant savages'. Eg You can see in the archaeological record from (i think) the bronze age a standard type of amphora shaped like an upside down poppy head and containing opium - this was traded quite widely over europe. (read 'secrets of the stone age' by richard rudgely for more on this (ok, not the best source))

Link - some stuff about this here (eg p309) plus more on ancient drug use.

 

[Ismene]

But if you dosed someone totally unsuspecting in the 21st century who'd never had psychedelics what do you think his reaction would be? Even with 400 years of science and a national health service to rely on - he'd be scared shitless. I'm not convinced people 2000, or even 4000 years ago would've simply sat there and gone "Yeah man, I'm feeling righteously mellow...totally groovy". Opium is quite a bit different to mushrooms effects wise.

(and if not how did they ever work it out?

Life seems to pretty ingenious - like how did ants ever work out that if they took in a certain kind of greenfly and fed them a certain fungus they'd secrete a liquid that they could feed baby ants on? Life just seems to have a way of throwing up these kinds of discoveries.

 

[Help?!?!]

Why do you keep acting as if getting dosed would automatically be terrifying? How do you know that? Psychedelics can be some of the most euphoric compounds on Earth! I'm not entirely sure but I don't think Albert ever tripped before LSD and even if he did its not really like there were any psychedelics around like LSD at time! Mushrooms could be as intense but were much shorter lasting. At the end of the day he just rode his bike on home. Most people can barely handle standing outside for their first trips. I get the point Ismene, I really do but acting like every single human on the Earth would absolutely have a terrible time is bullshit. Just think about how many things are one hundred percent absolute on this planet...not much! Also I'm sure other people have been randomly dosed without consent for possibly their first trips back when the kool aid parties were happening and people walked around with squirt guns shooting people with liquid LSD/that sort of non sense.

 

[max_freakout]

the religious use of entheogens isnt about pleasure/hedonism, it is about tripping out and having life-transforming experiences. The initiates at eleusis weren't going there for fun or for some 'pleasant' experience, they were going there to trip balls and experience the Goddess Demeter's sacrifice.

It can be blissful and euphoric but it can also be terrifying and traumatic, as Huxley said, it is heaven and hell.

 

[Ismene]

At the end of the day he just rode his bike on home.

Did you read the bit about what happened when he got home tho? He had the most terrifying few hours of his life. Thought he'd poisoned himself, that he could end up being permanently insane and was convinced that the doctor they called out to attend to him was a witchdoctor. Bummer.

I really do but acting like every single human on the Earth would absolutely have a terrible time is bullshit.

Tripping isn't for everyone. Even now - there's only a tiny minority of people who find it enjoyable. And that's when you know what you're taking is completely harmless and it isn't the devil taking control of your mind. Can we agree that even fewer people would've found it enjoyable back then?

I love tripping more than anyone on the face of the earth - and even I won't take some shit like 25-Nbome that I have no idea whether it's going to cause long-term damage or not. You think there were many people 2000 years ago who were more fond of tripping than me? Maybe there were and maybe there wasn't - my guess is the latter.

 

[swilow]

However, surely Albert Hoffman, as a scientist, would have had drawn some assurance from the fact that LSD intoxication didn't come with anything that resembles the toxic effects of ergot itself. Which is one reason why someone unknowingly taking a psychedelic wouldn't automatically assume they have eating something poisonous; the effects, though extremely disorienting and blahblah, aren't anywhere near like how acutely ill a person becomes when they have eaten death cap mushrooms or strychnine. I guess initially (and I mean once) people taking unknown psychedelic plants would have been terrified but after surviving it, 100% intact and feeling fantastic, they would have returned to it. The idea that people would consistently shun essentially benign plants is just an assumption really and may very well not hold up.

This, of course, almost eliminates the idea of ancient peoples using ergot but certainly does not preclude mushrooms and whatnot...

 

[max_freakout]

The entheogenic plants would never have been "unknown" to most people if they were being widely used at places like eleusis, it was widely known and acknowledged that there were magical plants with powerful mind-altering qualities, so it would never have come as a suprise to anyone. The idea that people were completely unable to recognise and use specific plants for specific purposes is sharply contradicted by the evidence we have about Greek culture,in particular the ancient Greek's highly sophisticated botanical knowledge (see Rinella's book), they were always well aware which plants would make them trip, and which plant could be used for other purposes.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Careful you could trip and fall causing a nasty head injury on the road to Eleusis. Especially if the paving stones are lose or the ground uneven.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Also watch out for the Etruscan's hiding in the bushes by the side of the road. They will slit your throat and steal all your gold Drachma's.

 

[Ismene]

I guess initially (and I mean once) people taking unknown psychedelic plants would have been terrified but after surviving it, 100% intact and feeling fantastic, they would have returned to it.

Maybe. But lets take an example from our own era. 25-i-nbome. You probably feel great on that - but if you know absolutely nothing about how it worked or the long-term consequences of taking it - would you keep taking it?

 

[swilow]

I should have said they "may go back to them" instead of categorically "would".

But anyhoses, I don't think that side-effects of drug and plant use have been a hugely decisive factor in their uptake in history when you consider alcohol (with its known negative side effects from vomiting, awful hangovers to addictions and liver/organ damage) being consumed throughout the world for a really longass time. And there had to have been a point when these side-effects were unknown but consumption continued. Think about how much more damage alcohol can do, compare it to psychedelic drugs and it seems reasonable to say that, after realising that psychedelics presented relatively little risk, ancient people may well have used them. Plus, it should be noted that no-one is saying that these ancient people were taking unknown drugs a lot; just ritualistically a couple of times a year...That sounds like reasonably prudent use, even of something whose effects are largely unknown.

For all that, I wonder why it matters so much in the psychedelic community, this idea of an ancient and somehow legitimising lineage of psychonauts stretching back through history, often seeming to be responsible for the worlds greatest events and achievements. I ask that having been very enthusiastic, in the past, about such concepts and reading a fair amount of material relating to it, but with not a lot of personal insight, at all, as to why... I think there is a fair probability that a psychedelic was taken during the Mysteries, but I am unsure of what (if anything) it would mean.