" The Road To Eleusis : Unveiling the Secret Mysteries " ???

[max_freakout]

I also am of the opinion that psilocybe shrooms are a more plausible explanation - however those suggesting an ergot derivative at Eleusis are not laymen ; they are noted scientists , scholars and authors ....[ ergot , afik , is very nasty stuff indeed ...]

i dont understand how such intelligent writers have managed to completely overlook the mushroom explanation of the Eleusinian mystery sacrament, even though it is so much simpler and more obvious than the various alternative explanations that have been offered such as some unknown mysterious ergot derivative, or some mysterious psychoactive gas seeping through the rocks etc.

The crucial point to realise about Eleusis, as well as all other ancient mystery religions, is that they are entheogenic, it doesnt matter which entheogen, because all the entheogens do the same thing in this context - they cause intense religious/mystical experience and in particular the ego death/rebirth experience that was at the centre of the Eleusinian mystery. At Eleusis they used the myth of the Goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone to understand the ego death/rebirth dynamic, Persephone is out picking magical flowers (=entheogens) when she is snatched away into the realm of the dead by Hades, to be later reunited with her mother.

The first psychedelic that I ever took was powerful brown microdot LSD in the 1970s . One aspect of that experience was the feeling of an ancient timelessness of the psychedelic state of mind - a feeling that still persists when tripping . Instead of something new and sensational , it always feels to be something ancient and sensational

McKenna quite credibly wrote that the first type of drugs humans ever encountered might have been psychedelics ; probably pscilocybe mushrooms , when following herds about during their migrations or when hunting them ...
Other cultures discovered cacti , etc , ....

The notion that psychedelics are new to humans is , imho , wrong .
But perhaps , as our culture evolved over many 1000s of years , the knowledge of and use of psychedelics was suppressed and long forgotten by most people , except maybe shamans , witches , etc , ....[ e.g , it was some bigoted invader - I don't recall who , possibly Attila ?? - that destroyed the temple at Eleusis in the name of " God " , thus ending the cult of the Mysteries ; now long forgotten knowledge of the rites ...]

The psychedelic experience is truly perennial, people have always been eating magical plants, tripping out and experiencing transcendent insights.

It was a huge mistake that the 60s LSD generation made, to assume that they were the first people to have discovered psychedelic experiences

 

[Ismene]

The notion that psychedelics are new to humans is , imho , wrong .
But perhaps , as our culture evolved over many 1000s of years , the knowledge of and use of psychedelics was suppressed and long forgotten by most people ,

Depends which culture. There's evidence for mushroom use in mexico because if you bend down there you're likely to pick up a psilocybin mushroom. It's a helluva stretch to assume that works in Europe/Africa etc where that isn't the case.

The psychedelic experience is truly perennial, people have always been eating magical plants, tripping out and experiencing transcendent insights.

It was a huge mistake that the 60s LSD generation made, to assume that they were the first people to have discovered psychedelic experiences

Maybe, maybe not. I think our generation is by far the most common user of psychedelics. Whether they have any history before us is open to question apart from a few parts of Mesoamerica. Even native americans outside Mexico didn't start using peyote until 100 years ago.

 

[Xorkoth]

I would think that native cultures, with their intimate and extensive knowledge of the plants in their habitats that has been passed down, refined and added to over the millenia (simply because of needing to know everything about survival in their environment), would have known about any psychedelic plants that grow around them, whether they are common enough to bend down and pick one up anywhere or not. These people are so much more highly attuned to their environments than we are, out of survival necessity.

 

[Vurtual]

Depends which culture. There's evidence for mushroom use in mexico because if you bend down there you're likely to pick up a psilocybin mushroom. It's a helluva stretch to assume that works in Europe/Africa etc where that isn't the case...

You never been to rural wales Issy? The idea that the many different cultures who so obviously lived in tune with nature in britain over the years didn't notice and use the liberty caps that are everywhere i'd say is pretty ridiculous - knowing how many/most shamanic cultures use drugs (or physical methods to achieve the same), and that all our cultures derive from those shamanic culture ultimately suggests the drugs never really left us.

When you look at the earliest 'proper' religions, the overlap with the earlier shamanism is obvious (i'm thinking egyptian book of the dead, but also soma) - religion seems to be what shamanism turns into when its surrounding culture starts farming and being 'civilised' - the shamanism would be similarly centralised and turn into what we call a religion. While the shaman would keep his secret potions to himself, similarly the oracles of greece wouldn't want everyone knowing they could have their own oraclular visions in their house by picking some mushrooms.

 

[Ismene]

Arn't those shamanic cultures all concentrated in the areas where magic mushrooms grow in abundance tho? Is there really much evidence for any psychedelic culture anywhere but Mesoamerica? Maybe the fly agaric - if you can call that psychedelic and Ibogaine in a tribe in Africa. I'm struggling to think of anything else. And those two were based on two pretty shite drugs. I don't know if the liberty caps are that common in the UK to start a religious cult. I've lived here for decades and I've seen them once. If you bend down and pick up 50 brown mushrooms in the UK it's a good bet all 50 will make you seriously ill.

We're assuming that if you feel mystical feelings you need to be on psychedelic drugs. Because that's the only way we - modern day people with the benefit of science - can feel them. I don't believe for a second that you need to be on drugs to think up something like the burning bush or to "hear the voice of God".

 

[max_freakout]

shamanic use of psychoactive plants is always related to sophisticated botanical knowledge, it is never about picking random mushrooms and hoping that they might randomly be the right ones. If you did that even in Mexico you would fail. For example Kat Harrison who has done lots of research on Mexican mushroom using cultures, said that one particular mexican tribe she stayed with would only use one particular species of psilocybin mushrooms (psilocybe mexicana), even though there were other species that also contained psilocybin they would not use them. This requires a finely tuned ability to recognise the correct type of mushroom. And this was also true in ancient greece (as Rinella covered in his recent book) they had a highly sophisticated knowledge of the identities of the psychoactive plants.

This supports the idea that the Eleusinian sacrament would likely have included mushrooms, since they are the most effective entheogen that would have been available.

 

[max_freakout]

We're assuming that if you feel mystical feelings you need to be on psychedelic drugs. Because that's the only way we - modern day people with the benefit of science - can feel them. I don't believe for a second that you need to be on drugs to think up something like the burning bush or to "hear the voice of God".

psychedelics are the only controllable and reliable/repeatable means to trigger intense mystical states of consciousness. Without drugs, sustained exploration of mystical/religious experience is impossible. This has nothing to do with science.

The burning bush story is an obvious metaphor for a trip experience, the same as every other bible story (and every religious story from the other religions.

Religion = psychedelic tripping

 

[Xorkoth]

It's true that indigenous cultures tend to have very intimate and developed knowledge of their local botanicals that far exceeds that of our own culture. I was watching a documentary about this tribe in the rainforest somewhere (can't remember where) where they made a poison out of a large number of different plants, with a complex process of mixing and application. They dammed up small sections of river and used the poison to poison the dammed section. The fish would slowly lose the ability to swim and float to the top, for easy catching in bulk. Any of the ingredients by themselves were not able to accomplish this, it was discovered when it was attempted to be recreated by the scientists studying them. It had to be done in a certain way, and it was mind-bogglingly complex.

My point is, these people wouldn't have just gone around randomly picking brown mushrooms. They would have had an intimate knowledge of the workings and specific features of each and every species, honed over countless generations attuned to the best means of survival. If one knows enough, it is certainly more than possible to differentiate between psychoactive and poisonous mushrooms, even if to you they look very similar.

 

[Vurtual]

@Issy - you're wrong about liberty caps, at least in the hillier areas of wales there's shitloads to be found - anyone vaguely connected with their environment in a rural sheepy-type area would know about them (why d'ya think the sheep have got those square eyes? .

 

[Ismene]

even though there were other species that also contained psilocybin they would not use them. This requires a finely tuned ability to recognise the correct type of mushroom.

Wasn't that just that they preferred the ones that didn't grow on top of shit? I remember that's what Wasson said - Maria Sabina simply didn't fancy the ones that grew on shit.

psychedelics are the only controllable and reliable/repeatable means to trigger intense mystical states of consciousness. Without drugs, sustained exploration of mystical/religious experience is impossible. This has nothing to do with science.

Nah max - even today, after hundreds of years of science you can still find fervent christians and religious maniacs of all stripes who vehemently condemn drug use. 2000 years ago it would've been even easier to whip people up into deranged states of religious ecstasy.

My point is, these people wouldn't have just gone around randomly picking brown mushrooms. They would have had an intimate knowledge of the workings and specific features of each and every species, honed over countless generations attuned to the best means of survival. If one knows enough, it is certainly more than possible to differentiate between psychoactive and poisonous mushrooms, even if to you they look very similar.

Does that apply to all cultures with mushrooms tho? Didn't wasson suggest some cultures are mycophiles and some arn't?

 

[Ismene]

@Issy - you're wrong about liberty caps, at least in the hillier areas of wales there's shitloads to be found - anyone vaguely connected with their environment in a rural sheepy-type area would know about them (why d'ya think the sheep have got those square eyes? .

Wales - where men are men and sheep are nervous

 

[Mudshark]

I have been reading up on Eleusis again ...

apparently , according to Hofmann , the " Kykeon " sacramental entheogenic [ ? ] potion was prepared from - Barley and Mint

 

[SONN]

all I know is that I personally like to believe that they were praying to the god of LSD they just didn't know it yet.

 

[Ismene]

I have been reading up on Eleusis again ...

apparently , according to Hofmann , the " Kykeon " sacramental entheogenic [ ? ] potion was prepared from - Barley and Mint

Maybe placebo - get some Greek hyped up on talk of "joining the secret club of the mystics" then slip him some barley water and hey presto he starts hearing the angels singing to him.

 

[Xorkoth]

Does that apply to all cultures with mushrooms tho? Didn't wasson suggest some cultures are mycophiles and some arn't?

Mycophiles or not, it is crucial for people who live entirely with nature, off the land, to know as much as it's possible to know about the plants and animals of their environments. I doubt there are any indigenous cultures living their traditional way who would be so clueless as to walk around picking random mushrooms without knowing what they do (poison, food, psychoactive effects, etc) and how to precisely identify them.

 

[Ismene]

Even in the UK? Are there really enough tasty british mushrooms to run the risk of death by picking the wrong ones? Even now when you've got big colour pictures in books people still manage to pick the wrong ones and die. If there's only one form of magic mushroom and all the rest kill you it's going to take quite a bit of risky trial and error before you find the right one.

And that's assuming all cultures enjoy the effects of psychedelics - perhaps British people and Mexicans have different ideas of fun?

 

[Mudshark]

I believe that ancient Britons certainly had knowledge of psilocybes around them .

Perhaps not everybody was into tripping , but old Albion [ Britain ] was rife with witches , warlocks , and faeries , etc ,...

Today we are still left with the legends and folklore remaining , after such cults were persecuted and eventually stamped out by the early Christians and others with very un- Christian attitudes towards these diabolical " heretics " ....

 

[Ismene]

Isn't that looking at the past through the lens of the present tho? Maybe wizards and warlocks were just as delusional in their own right as the christians were? I think crediting them as romantic renegades tripping like 9th century hippies might be a bit too much poetic license. They were probabaly more into cutting the throats of virgins.

But there's no evidence either way so it just comes down to what you want to believe.

 

[Vurtual]

But as i said, the mushrooms in rural uk are abundant (as well as various other edible and non-edible). As Xorkoth said, any culture vaguely connected to the environment would know about them - shit, anyone who walks their dog regularly in a field in a hilly area in wales would know. Can you not just accept the (strong) possibility instead of insisting that your nuts-and-bolts anti-mystical view of the psychedelic history the world must be correct? (though i agree with it in parts)

 

[Ismene]

But don't you think the fact that they're vastly more abundant in mesoamerica is a clue to why the only genuine evidence of mushroom use is in..er..mesoamerica? I'm sure there's one psilocybin mushroom in most countries but is one out of 50 really enough to start a psychedelic movement?

But you could be right virtual - there's no evidence either way. We're all just guessing. Maybe there was some hairy warlock tripping on mushrooms running stark naked across the welsh fields a thousand years ago.