The rejection of organized religion

[medical_meccanica]

^^^ For me, that too easily becomes "well, violence would occur with or without this factor, so let's not even bother trying to deal with the problem."

I really don't find anything about RD's tone hate mongering. To me, the book is called the God Delusion because he's not nessecarily trying to reach people like you who have actually thought things out for themselves or who have no trouble picking the best parts of religion for their lives and applying them. I think that title is for those who have grown up with religion as a definite and unquestionable aspect of their lives, who (as strange as it sounds) never consciously realized that their religious and cosmic beliefs are completely up to them. Whether or not people agree with religious values, they need to be questioned the same way nearly all values do. And unfortunately a lot of the time (and from what I've observed most of the time) they are not.

 

[L2R]

^^^ For me, that too easily becomes "well, violence would occur with or without this factor, so let's not even bother trying to deal with the problem."

Quite the contrary. I'm all for dealing with the problem. I work in a union, so dealing with harsh problems is what i do for a living. Hitting up religion in response to atrocities done in their name is not really dealing with the problem at all. The real causes of these problems are answers to questions our society is clearly not ready to ask.

I really don't find anything about RD's tone hate mongering. To me, the book is called the God Delusion because he's not nessecarily trying to reach people like you who have actually thought things out for themselves or who have no trouble picking the best parts of religion for their lives and applying them. I think that title is for those who have grown up with religion as a definite and unquestionable aspect of their lives, who (as strange as it sounds) never consciously realized that their religious and cosmic beliefs are completely up to them. Whether or not people agree with religious values, they need to be questioned the same way nearly all values do. And unfortunately a lot of the time (and from what I've observed most of the time) they are not.

Have you seen the documentary accompanying the book?
"The Root of All Evil"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0774118/

I wish what you say is true, but having seen the man talk of the topic speaks volumes to the contrary. From the horses mouth....

 

[junctionalfunkie]

Not all churchs are the same as the ones you have experienced negativity from.

I have experienced "negativity" from a vast array of churches. Most of them I find simply laughable and boring. I reserve my pure hatred for Catholicism exclusively.

My response to the rest of your post (Dawkins) was eloquently summarized by medical_meccanica.

tbh, i really enjoyed his books on evolution.

So did I. The Blind Watchmaker is fascinating in its complexity, yet completely accessible to a layperson.

 

[L2R]

lol, i just realised you're from TX. That kinda explains it!

agreed on the blind watchmaker, although i found climbing mount improbable just as fascinating and engaging. :D good stuff!

 

[junctionalfunkie]

lol, i just realised you're from TX. That kinda explains it!

Yes, it can be a bit rough on a skeptic. A fairly accurate view of North American ideological geography:

:D

 

[jersey drape]

I don't like the idea that religion is organized. Even in threads like these with "Religion" or "God" in the title, you can see why religion will never truly fit into a world of peace. Once beliefs are organized amongst a crowd, and everyone is so sure that what they believe in is right, and they have the power of many people who believe as they do, it becomes an argument, a fight, a war...Religion ends up being a world synonymous with ignorant...

I couldn't even read through all the posts, but the fact it's on 3 pages shows you how everyone is so sure that they're right, and they have to get their point across that they're right, and they know what's going on...etc.. The original points are lost, and everyone ends up bitter with each other.

The reason I don't choose to believe in religion is because it doesn't offer any answers. People should know right from wrong, to love each other, and not kill...etc. Why did a god have to be invented to tell people not to?

During a time of history when there was so little known about the world other than pain. When people were fed to lions for sport, hung from crosses as punishment, and stoned to death.. I would certainly want to believe there is something almighty and powerful, and a heaven waiting for me after my shitty existence on this earth.

For me, I believe in an existence outside of just being human. Only a human can understand things like "god" "heaven" ..etc. The world around us, and the universe we're in, is so vast, unknown, and amazing that to simplify everything into a "human" perspective like pearly gates, heaven, god, baby jesus..etc is limiting in such a way that it's really a shame. People need to take off the blinders and see and experience life for what it is... Not based on fairy tales written centuries ago.

 

[moonyham]

When jahovas witnesses come to my door, my usual rant is: Look, theres been multitudes of different religions and they all are relatively the same, they just conform to how society wants them as time goes by as to not lose there customer base/'lose faith'. We know of the egyptions and Ra and all there crazy shit, and the romans with zeus and what not, and now you are following the same bunch of crap that they followed only now hes named jesus.

 

[B9]

Its foolish to say that all religions are equal, because they're not. I feel that Roman Catholicism is correct and thats why I follow it, I also feel that Zoroastrianism is completely wrong, so I don't follow that. Whats wrong with my thinking?

So what exactly makes RCism superior to zoroastrianism ? Oh & are we talking current Parsee zoroastrianism or the ancient Persian religion that predates christianity & in my view was the inspiration for the " burning bush" incident.

Lets face it there's idiots everywhere - in the church outta the church running the church running away from the church building the church, knocking the church promoting the church excusing the church

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

what a horrid comparison. you seriously cant compare the scientific method to religion. religion is illogical with nothing to support it other than the bible, where as science has evidence to back itself up. please try to apply the scientific method to the bible. you cant because it is all fictional, written by so-called prophets who wanted to fuck with mankind. dont insult us because we reject fiction, its like telling a boring old man to read some exciting fictional kiddy book and getting mad when he rejects it.

-if you aren't lost, then you aren't having fun

There is an inner hidden psychology, in the bible, that if the messages were not so deeply ingrained and coded, which is why it is for deep thinkers-people may have been more inclined to accept it. People take it very superficial and hence redicule it. they are right in the sense that organized religion is also a business, and the ingrained metaphorical messages get bypassed by the masses who see everything so superficially and cannot take the time to reflect in those messages, which are so profound.
Psychology is scientific pretty much like the rest of the natural sciences, but with in depth psychology, you have to think deeply.

The rest of the sciences are easily learned. Do not need such deep translation, you learn them from books easily. Where as with analytical psychology one needs to go deep to translate metaphors as well as do it individualistically. Perhaps analytical and philosophical get lost here-or confused.
The messages in the bible is about life as a whole, and universal consciousness-not a man sitting on the clouds who took a magic wand and created us. You have deep inner wisdom not just a brain and chemicals. We may ponder about the uncertainties, but there are deeper truths that are repeated in patterns pretty much like nature is, and though there are no molecules to see, there are different constituents of consciousness, individual and whole and universal. Only you can "see them" from a specific perspective and it cannot be done fully unless the subject and the object are one! No words are enough to explain it.

Where has Shakti gone....to help me out here!!

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[straycatphizzle]

organized religion is completely fucking ridiculous. Christians are taking their beliefs and morals from a fucking mother goose story book.

 

[Moonmixer]

IMO, organized religion is a slowly dying phenomena; because of higher science, higher education for more of the human race, and the propoganda/biased views that are often associated with religions (falsified or not).

That doesn't mean that religion is a dying trend, only the GO TO CHURCH GO TO WORK GO TO BED mentality. During the 50's, this was the suburbanite way of life for many. And in many ways it inspired the beatnick and hippy movements of the upcoming decades.

Now, we are past the flower power and lovey dovey stages in many ways, and are moving more toward reason. Renaissance, learning for the sake of learning, etc. (And in the case of many on this forum, experimentation in the illicit for the sake of experimentation).

One important note: It has all happened before. I mention that there may be an upcoming renaissance of sorts, or one that will be recognized as one in the future; but the renaissance already happened in 13th... 14th... after the middle ages . I have often thought that perhaps it is all a cycle. And in that case, religion is dying. In the same sense, it will rise again. In different form or manner, it could be just part of a complex cycle of human development that we call history....


PS: Sorry for the rambling and misquoted dates, I'm tired and benzo'd out and need to sleep this off. Thanks for hearing me out.

 

[Moonmixer]

organized religion is completely fucking ridiculous. Christians are taking their beliefs and morals from a fucking mother goose story book.

Lol and in some ways I agree with that.

I hate fundamentalism, word-for-word bible interpretation and etc. The bible is a human document. God did not give each Christian a bible, Christians gave Christians bibles. The Bible logically cannot be the direct word of god, because of the fact that every writing is tainted by millenia of use, misinterpretation, confusion, and misuse. Even more so, every writing is tainted by every author's personal biases and life experiences. However small those may be, they are there, and taint the "holy word of god".

The bible is not a textbook, it is a book of philosophy. Of stories with meaning. It is powerful, and has values that society is based off of. But it is not a word-for-word interpretation of what the human race's mission on earth is.

That's what psychedelics are for.

(jk)

(i'm really going to bed now)

 

[Moonmixer]

There is an inner hidden psychology, in the bible, that if the messages were not so deeply ingrained and coded, which is why it is for deep thinkers-people may have been more inclined to accept it. People take it very superficial and hence redicule it. they are right in the sense that organized religion is also a business, and the ingrained metaphorical messages get bypassed by the masses who see everything so superficially and cannot take the time to reflect in those messages, which are so profound.
Psychology is scientific pretty much like the rest of the natural sciences, but with in depth psychology, you have to think deeply.

The rest of the sciences are easily learned. Do not need such deep translation, you learn them from books easily. Where as with analytical psychology one needs to go deep to translate metaphors as well as do it individualistically. Perhaps analytical and philosophical get lost here-or confused.
The messages in the bible is about life as a whole, and universal consciousness-not a man sitting on the clouds who took a magic wand and created us. You have deep inner wisdom not just a brain and chemicals. We may ponder about the uncertainties, but there are deeper truths that are repeated in patterns pretty much like nature is, and though there are no molecules to see, there are different constituents of consciousness, individual and whole and universal. Only you can "see them" from a specific perspective and it cannot be done fully unless the subject and the object are one! No words are enough to explain it.

Where has Shakti gone....to help me out here!!

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I'll help you out.

Think about this from a scientific viewpoint. How can billions of people have been "duped" by something based on complete speculation and falsehood? There are messages in the bible that are wholesome, good and beneficial. You need to see the gray area.

(colors not chosen for any reason)
Black=Bible is bullshit
White=Bible is god's holy word
Grey=Bible is god's holy word, mixed with bullshit, drowned in centuries of misuse and misquotation. It is not true. It is not false. It is what it is, YOU must interpret it.

Refer to the above post for more thoughts on the matter.
Bedtime.

 

[moonyham]

If you're an atheist I can totally respect and tolerate that

But don't go bashing religion. You probably hate when fundamentalist christians come knocking on your door and try to convert you by telling you that Jesus loves you. Well religious people dont liek when you try to convert them to your ideology of atheism, its really the same concept.

But the thing is, god doesnt exist. Its NOT the same concept. Religion IS illogical, it doesnt make sense, its based on hear say and money and all sorts of corruption and bad things. Its what almost every war has been about, and all it does is hinder society. So how can you say its the same cause it isnt.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Even something as silly as this is really evidence enough^.

 

[L2R]

But the thing is, god doesnt exist. .

oh is that the thing?

man, after thousands of years of searching, who'd've thought the thing would be so simple....

LOL@that whole post.

*almost* as funny as

organized religion is completely fucking ridiculous. Christians are taking their beliefs and morals from a fucking mother goose story book.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

I'll help you out.

Think about this from a scientific viewpoint. How can billions of people have been "duped" by something based on complete speculation and falsehood? There are messages in the bible that are wholesome, good and beneficial. You need to see the gray area.

(colors not chosen for any reason)
Black=Bible is bullshit
White=Bible is god's holy word
Grey=Bible is god's holy word, mixed with bullshit, drowned in centuries of misuse and misquotation. It is not true. It is not false. It is what it is, YOU must interpret it.

Refer to the above post for more thoughts on the matter.
Bedtime.

Hmmmm, I was hoping someone would come to shake up my realization!
Thank you! Now I can say I have been awakened!8)

 

[Moonmixer]

But the thing is, god doesnt exist. Its NOT the same concept. Religion IS illogical, it doesnt make sense, its based on hear say and money and all sorts of corruption and bad things.

Oh he (it/she) DOESN'T?
Oh I SEE NOW!

See, now I bet that the billions of people that believe and have believed in his presence are convinced.

I think what a lot of atheists and agnostics fail to realize is that many Christians don't think of god as a holy being. Some do, but still others think it's more of a spiritual presence. It's a force that unites.

Besides, who are you to say that god doesn't exist? Religion is illogical based on scientific standards. God and the spiritual are defined as supernatural, AKA, beyond natural science. You can't justify religion with science (or vice versa), because they're incompatible by nature.

all it does is hinder society.

Explain to me how any knowledge or semblance of higher learning in Europe was preserved in the dark ages. Through Christianity, that's how. Monks were the ONLY people (as a generalization) who could read, write, and transcribe knowledge.

all it does is hinder society.

Christianity was the medium in which slaves preserved much of their traditions and heritage. Granted, without the slavery and forced Christianity there would be no need for this preservation. But the point is that it preserved them. It provided them with hope and strength, and in addition, a sense of cultural identity that would've been lost without it.

all it does is hinder society.

The YMCA is a Christian organization.

all it does is hinder society.

Habitat for Humanity is a Christian organization.

I could go on for ages, but I think you get the point.



PS: I practice Christian holidays but I've been to church about.... 5 times in my life. I am not a devout Christian. I just think that it is a philosophy that cannot be condemned as evil, greedy, violent, blah blah blah.

 

[Moonmixer]

Hmmmm, I was hoping someone would come to shake up my realization!
Thank you! Now I can say I have been awakened!8)

I thought I was agreeing with you. Apparently I didn't understand what you were saying.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

^^^No, you are perhaps right, it was me who didn't get you. We are agreeing, you just placed it in a different way.

 

[straycatphizzle]

I believe being close minded to new beliefs and not even taking them into account is a just stunting intellectual growth. Your fear for the unknown is so great that you cant stand the idea of accepting the fact that we do not fucking know. The thing is buddy is that we dont fucking know. But nooooooooo, everything has to be concrete for you. If you're gonna be ignorant at least admit that you're doing it and ignore things consciously.