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US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

Yeah you know what's worse than that. When a "presidential" guy gives us a super polished and inspiring speech about humanitarian interventions and we feel good at home not knowing he's blowing up wedding parties in some country we don't know the capital of. How about we endure some political theater in the process of PEACE and de-escalating tensions wherever possible - that includes Russia.

Completely unrelated. You can't refute an argument by saying "but [the last guy/the alternative] was [worse/bad] too". Of course, that's pretty much the argument I tend to hear from people. Trump did some shit? But Hillary's a crook! Trump did some shit? But Obama did some shit! Yeah, Obama did some shit. What about Trump, that's who we're talking about.

How is this political theater de-escalating tensions and producing peace? Name-calling foreign leaders, imposing harsh tariffs against advice and to anger from our allies, inspiring bigotry and xenophobia, literally calling for violence against muslims/immigrants in his rallies during his campaign? Give me examples of when his rhetoric has inspired peace and de-escalation.
 
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Completely unrelated. You can't refute an argument by saying "but [the last guy/the alternative] was [worse/bad] too". Of course, that's pretty much the argument I tend to hear from people. Trump did some shit? But Hillary's a crook! Trump did some shit? But Obama did some shit!

Trump in '1999 interview: wtf don't let NK get nukes

Clinton: NK more nukes
Bush: NK more nukes
Obama: NK more nukes now we can nuke USA
Trump: put the nukes down Little Rocket Man
Kim: OK
 
Uh... are you suggesting Obama wanted to nuke the USA? Are you suggesting previous presidents encouraged NK to make nukes?

Also just because they said they'd halt their program doesn't mean they're gonna do it. I think they're counting on Trump believing that. maybe they are but you can't just take it at face value.
 
they fired a missile over japan. it's time for the little boy to put down the weapons.
and somehow in 20 years they got rocket tech to be able to hit the US
 
Do countries that go into nuclear power plants and also weapons really need to ask the US president for permission anyway?

I wouldnt think that it would occur to some or any.

International relations requires some kind of tact, Trump banging on like he does is provocative to those who take his words as threats.

Id say Trump was a cause of this hoo haa initially with his twitter and press conferences and it was SK president Moon that de escalated the drama in a way that made Kim look like the bigger man and Trump look like hes the reasonable one.

Good job in diffusing it for now to South Korea!



There arent any leaders of any country that are innocent of any type of sly dealings with other countries or any that were unable to fulfill election promises so saying Trump is all the things in Tathras list (subject to opinion) doesnt mean his predecessors are not guilty of ticking some or all the boxes either.

At least Obama actually seemed genuine with his intent to put in place what he said he would and didnt just shit stir to be disruptive- which clearly doesnt help anyone except Trump getting headlines.


I dunno. They both like Dennis Rodman so maybe he can tag along to the meetup .
 
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He doesn't have to admit it to be found guilty via evidence. And not understanding what you were doing is no excuse, okay so let's say it's not intentional collusion, wouldn't you think a mistake like that should cost someone the office at least?



Yeah I agree. This is all a big game for him, he likes seeing everyone riled up and talking about him.

Sorry 4 double post m8 i didnt see this.


To be honest- No I dont think that any mistakes he made prior to winning the election and during his 3 months training (? Is this right?) would be grounds for losing his job.

Why?

Because there is an entire government full of bureaucracy and public servants who knew damn well that he was totally inexperienced, had no idea what he was getting himsrlf into and knew damn well exactly what he was like personality wise when he ran for office.


The whole country would have at least some idea he is what he is and despite that all- he got the job.



His buisness ties and possible dodgy underworld connections would not be a huge secret.

Sexual allegations- well Im not going there as it wont end well considering the allegations are rampant throughout the political and entertainment arenas with public opinion courts not helping whatsoever.


So no, he shouldn't have to stand down and no takes backsies.
 
they fired a missile over japan. it's time for the little boy to put down the weapons.
and somehow in 20 years they got rocket tech to be able to hit the US

If your point is that NK got nuclear weapons despite us not wanting them to, well, yeah, they did, because the world is a complex place and NK is just a pawn in the larger power struggle between Russia, China and the US. China and NK are allies, and the worry is that there could be war with China.
 
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Theres no need for war with China or any other country.

Especially since Trump came into power, it seems like he thinks he can just tell other countries how to live their lives and to tow Americas line. Hes reneged on treaties without a care in the world, put pressure on allies and strained relations that were tightened by Obama with the international community and has effectively bought the loyalty of Australia by Tarrif exemptions.

Id bet if anyone invaded us theres no way Trump would help out at all, and if we are invaded then I hope its by Jamaica at least they know how to party.

There needs not be any war with China, maybe just acceptance that Trump does not control the world and cant just bomb the fuck out of countries that are insignificant threat to them personally.

Im pretty sure Russia could nuke America a thousand times over what NK can. So srsly a war over NK?
 
i disagree. a patriot would not call athletes - exercising their constitutional right to free speech by respectfully demonstrating on one knee - 'sons of bitches'.

they could have protested a bunch of other ways without disrespecting the US flag and anthem
 
So looks like McCabe is gone and he's not getting his pension. That's what happens when you try to take out an elected leader.
 
i disagree. a patriot would not call athletes - exercising their constitutional right to free speech by respectfully demonstrating on one knee - 'sons of bitches'.

that's just plain funny :)

alasdair

a patriot probably wouldn't bribe a doctor to lie about shin splints to avoid serving his country.


probably wouldn't break tax laws that require hiding a large piece of your tax records either
 
Go because of what?
There is no evidence of Russian collusion w trump (which is also not a crime) except with the dnc and obama administration.

Jahseeus...what are you reading into that makes you ask if "trump is going down?". Down for what?

I was reading into all of the precious, little, posts made by the rest of the gang. You know? The ones that said it's open and shut case, that Trump is GUILTY, that he is a GOING DOWN for this...

I was just poking fun at the fact that this all a big lump of bullshit.

just got back and read through this thread.

try to sort through the ad-homs thrown around and you will see what I'm talking about.
 
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https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/muellers-investigation-flouts-justice-department-standards/

These columns have many times observed Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s failure to set limits on Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. To trigger the appointment of a special counsel, federal regulations require the Justice Department to identify the crimes that warrant investigation and prosecution — crimes that the Justice Department is too conflicted to investigate in the normal course; crimes that become the parameters of the special counsel’s jurisdiction.

Rosenstein, instead, put the cart before the horse: Mueller was invited to conduct a fishing expedition, a boundless quest to hunt for undiscovered crimes, rather than an investigation and prosecution of known crimes.

That deviation, it turns out, is not the half of it. With Rosenstein’s passive approval, Mueller is shredding Justice Department charging policy by alleging earth-shattering crimes, then cutting a sweetheart deal that shields the defendant from liability for those crimes and from the penalties prescribed by Congress. The special counsel, moreover, has become a legislature unto himself, promulgating the new, grandiose crime of “conspiracy against the United States” by distorting the concept of “fraud.”

Why does the special counsel need to invent an offense to get a guilty plea? Why doesn’t he demand a plea to one of the several truly egregious statutory crimes he claims have been committed?

Good questions.


The Multi-Million-Dollar Fraud Indictments . . . and Penny-Ante Plea
On Thursday, February 22, with now-familiar fanfare, Mueller filed an indictment against Paul Manafort and Richard Gates, alleging extremely serious crimes. Let’s put aside for now that the charges have absolutely nothing to do with the stated rationale for Mueller’s appointment, namely, Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible Trump-campaign collusion therein.

According to the special counsel, Manafort and Gates conspired to commit more than $25 million in bank fraud. In all, the indictment charges nine bank-fraud counts, each carrying a potential penalty of up to 30 years’ imprisonment (i.e., 270 years combined). Furthermore, the two defendants are formally charged with $14 million in tax fraud (the indictment’s narrative of the offense actually alleges well over twice that amount). There are five tax-fraud counts, yielding a potential 15 years’ imprisonment (up to three years for each offense), against each defendant.

According to the special counsel, Manafort and Gates conspired to commit more than $25 million in bank fraud.

Mind you, this indictment, filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, is not a stand-alone. It piles atop an earlier indictment in the District of Columbia. That one, filed back in October, accuses Manafort and Gates of an eye-popping $75 million money-laundering conspiracy, a charge that carries a penalty of up to 20 years’ imprisonment.

The two indictments contain many other felony charges. But sticking with just these most serious ones, we can safely say that, on February 22, Manafort and Gates were portrayed as high-order federal felons who faced decades of prison time based on financial frauds in the nine-digit range. And while I have previously discussed potential proof problems for the money-laundering charge, proving bank fraud and tax fraud is comparatively straightforward. The indictment indicates that the evidence of these crimes is well documented and daunting.

Yet, the very next day, Friday, February 23, Mueller permitted Gates to plead guilty to two minor charges — a vaporous “conspiracy against the United States” and the process crime of misleading investigators, each carrying a sentence of zero to five years in jail. This flouted Justice Department policies designed to ensure that federal law is enforced evenhandedly across the nation.


‘The Most Serious Readily Provable Charge’
In plea negotiations, federal prosecutors are instructed to require that a defendant plead guilty to “the most serious readily provable charge consistent with the nature and extent of his/her conduct.” (See U.S. Attorney’s Manual, sec. 27.430.) In a properly functioning Justice Department, a defendant is not accused of over $100 million in financial fraud and then, within 24 hours, permitted to plead guilty in a wrist-slap deal that drops the major allegations and caps his potential sentence well beneath the penalties applicable by statute.

As outlined above, Mueller accused Gates of significant felonies totaling over 300 years of potential incarceration. Had the special counsel simply demanded a plea to a single bank-fraud count — the most serious statutory crime charged and, according to the indictment’s description, an offense that is readily provable — Gates would have faced up to 30 years’ imprisonment.

If, as all appearances suggest, Mueller’s goal is to get Gates to cooperate, such a plea, besides honoring Justice Department guidelines, would have provided plenty of incentive. Under federal law, the prosecutor does not need to sell out the case for a song to induce cooperation. The prosecutor can demand a guilty plea that reflects the gravity of the defendant’s actual offenses. Then, if the defendant cooperates fully and truthfully, the law permits the prosecutor to ask the judge to impose a sentence beneath the severe term that would otherwise be called for — a sentence of little or no jail time.

Under federal law, the prosecutor does not need to sell out the case for a song to induce cooperation. The prosecutor can demand a guilty plea that reflects the gravity of the defendant’s actual offenses.

The Justice Department’s manual further admonishes prosecutors to refrain from guilty pleas that could “adversely affect the investigation or prosecution of others.” That is exactly what Mueller has done to the ongoing prosecution of Manafort. By giving Gates a pass on the bank-fraud (and tax-fraud, and money-laundering) charges, Mueller signals that these allegations are inflated. A jury could well feel justified in giving Manafort a pass on them, too.

By contrast, let’s imagine that Mueller had followed Justice Department protocols by insisting to Gates that nothing less than a guilty plea to the most serious readily provable charge — a 30-year bank-fraud count — would suffice. In his plea allocution, Gates would inevitably have implicated Manafort as his bank-fraud co-conspirator. Manafort would know that, were Gates to testify at trial, he would tell the jury that Manafort conspired with him in the bank-fraud scheme. That would markedly increase the likelihood that Manafort would be convicted of the bank-fraud charges. It would ratchet up the pressure on Manafort to plead guilty. It would help the investigation and prosecution.


Despite the prevalence of tax charges in the Virginia indictment, note that Mueller did not demand that Gates plead guilty to any of them, either. The manual (in sec. 6-4.245) requires the Justice Department’s tax division to approve a prosecutor’s decision not to proceed on tax charges. Did Mueller, after months of painstaking work by revenue agents, announce a high-profile tax case against Gates only to get the tax fivision’s okay to drop it in less than 24 hours? (Mueller’s plea agreement with Gates drops the tax counts, among other charges — see agreement, p. 2, para. 3.)

But we’re just getting warmed up.


Using the ‘Catch-all’ Conspiracy Statute to Slash Sentencing Exposure
Mueller’s pleading shenanigans are an affront to the Constitution’s separation of powers. To begin with, he undermines Congress’s clear intent to punish grave conspiracy offenses with severe penalties. He does this by making promiscuous use of the comparatively minor conspiracy offense set forth in Section 371 of the penal code. We will come momentarily to the manner in which Mueller distorts the fraud provision of this statute. For now, let’s focus on the penalty provision.

In its most frequently invoked part, Section 371 prescribes imprisonment for a mere zero to five years for those who conspire “to commit any offense against the United States” (emphasis added). Federal prosecutors regard this as a “catch-all” provision because it covers all possible federal offenses, no matter how trivial. In particular, Section 371 embraces categories of minor crime that do not contain their own separate conspiracy provisions.

This is in stark contrast to categories of serious crimes — e.g., narcotics trafficking, terrorism, racketeering, and others we’ll come to — for which Congress has enacted separate conspiracy statutes with far more severe penalties. When crimes in these categories occur, prosecutors are schooled that they must charge the conspiracy statute that Congress has tailored to that kind of offense, not the catch-all provision in Section 371. A concrete example: If a defendant conspires to violate a person’s civil rights, the prosecutor must charge him under the “conspiracy against rights” statute (Section 241), in which Congress prescribes penalties of up to ten years’ imprisonment, life imprisonment, or death, depending on the severity of the violation. Regardless of how anxious he is to induce a guilty plea, the prosecutor is not supposed to charge the case under Section 371 — which would limit the sentence to five years and thus enable the defendant to escape the more severe penalties Congress has decreed for civil-rights crimes.

But this is precisely what has been done by Mueller’s team, led in the Manafort-Gates prosecution by Andrew Weissmann. In his sensational narrative of the two-count case to which Gates is pleading guilty, the special counsel “informs the Court” that Gates and Manafort “generated tens of millions of dollars in income” through allegedly illegitimate business in Ukraine and then “laundered the money through scores of United States corporations, partnerships, and bank accounts.” But after all this heavy breathing, we learn that Mueller does not charge Gates with money-laundering conspiracy — an offense for which, to repeat, Congress prescribes a penalty of up to 20 years’ incarceration. In fact, money laundering does not even rate a mention in the statutory offenses the special counsel claims (in Count One) that Gates conspired to violate.

When, after 23 pages of atmospherics about gazillions in fraud on the financial system and the Treasury, we finally get down to the statutory offenses Mueller says that Gates conspired to commit, there are just two minor ones: (a) failure to file reports of foreign bank accounts (the “FBAR” charges) and (b) failure to register as a foreign agent (the “FARA” charges, which include false statements to the Justice Department in that connection).

To be very specific, Mueller alleges that this was a conspiracy to commit “the violations of law charged in Counts Three through Six and Ten through Twelve” of the original indictment (i.e., the District of Columbia indictment that hypes the supposed money-laundering scheme that Mueller has abandoned in Gates’s plea). Notice something strange: Mueller omits Counts Seven through Nine, even though they, too, are FBAR counts. (See Indictment, pp. 25–26.)

What’s going on here? Some remarkable sleight-of-hand.

What’s going on here? Some remarkable sleight-of-hand.

First, the three FBAR counts Mueller included in the conspiracy (Three through Six) are the ones that involve Manafort, not Gates. Mueller has cut out of the conspiracy to which Gates was required to plead guilty the FBAR counts (Seven through Nine) that actually involve Gates himself. That is, having already spared Gates from the money-laundering, tax-fraud, and bank-fraud charges announced with such fanfare, Mueller is also shielding Gates from his own alleged FBAR violations.

Second, for FBAR offenses, Congress has prescribed a separate conspiracy provision (Section 5322(b) of Title 31, U.S. Code), under which the penalty is up to ten years’ imprisonment. Yet Mueller does not charge Congress’s FBAR conspiracy; he charges Gates under Section 371’s catch-all provision, effectively slicing the penalty term in half.


Now let’s move on to the FARA aspect of the conspiracy (Counts Ten through Twelve). It seems straightforward: Gates and Manafort are alleged to have acted as foreign agents of the political party that ruled Ukraine for a time; to have failed to register as such; and to have made false statements to the government about that work.

Yet, the Justice Department virtually never brings criminal charges against FARA violators; the failure to register is handled by encouraging foreign agents to comply with the law. Forcing Gates to plead guilty to this charge seems odd, then, to those of us who recall former FBI director James Comey’s recommendation against prosecution for a much more serious offense: Hillary Clinton’s mishandling of classified information. Even though Mrs. Clinton’s conduct may literally have violated a criminal statute, Comey dubiously rationalized that indicting her would be an improper selective prosecution for conduct the Justice Department virtually never treats as a felony. “No reasonable prosecutor,” we were told, would charge a case under such circumstances.


‘Conspiracy against the United States’
But perhaps Mueller reasons (ahem) that this is the rare FARA case that warrants prosecution. After all, Gates and Manafort not only failed to register; they lied to cover up their Ukrainian work. This, then, brings us to the special counsel’s other theory for prosecuting Gates over the FARA misconduct — the newfangled, ever-elastic “conspiracy against the United States.”

As I pointed out when Mueller first indicted Manafort and Gates, there is no such offense in federal law as “conspiracy against the United States.” What Section 371 criminalizes (besides the afore-described conspiracy “to commit any offense” under federal penal law) is conspiracy “to defraud the United States” (emphasis added).

Defraud is a loaded word that prosecutors have a notorious history of stretching beyond recognition. Because an important purpose of the criminal law is to put people of average intelligence on notice of what is forbidden, words in criminal statutes are construed in accordance with their commonsense meaning. The common understanding of “defraud” is illegally to obtain money or property from someone by deception. To defraud the United States, then, is to swindle or embezzle from its government. Nevertheless, relying on extravagant precedents from federal circuit courts of appeal, the Justice Department instructs that fraud can theoretically be expanded to include “any willful impairment of the legitimate functions of government.” (See U.S. Attorneys Manual, Criminal Resource Manual Section 923.)

Mueller has taken this expansive construction and run with it: Anything that two or more people do that in any way hampers the ability of Leviathan to perform its metastasizing functions could conceivably be an actionable “conspiracy against the United States,” even if Congress has not seen fit to criminalize it. Thus, two people who fail to register as foreign agents do not just conspire to violate FARA; they “conspire against the United States” by impairing the Justice Department’s maintenance of an accurate foreign-agent registry. Two people who fail to file foreign-bank forms “conspire against the United States” by impairing the Treasury Department’s monitoring of assets held by Americans overseas.

. . . And, just to extend this logic, let’s say a president and his subordinates were to fire the FBI director or consider firing a special counsel. Even if the Constitution permits this and no law directly forbids it, mightn’t they, too, be deemed to have “conspired against the United States” by impairing the government’s investigative functions?

The Supreme Court has never ruled on this theory that prosecutors are empowered to legislate previously unknown crimes on the rationale that government functions have somehow been undermined. The High Court has, however, invalidated a theory that is very close. In the 1980s, the Justice Department attempted to use the federal mail-fraud statute to prosecute corrupt public officials. Prosecutors did not just claim that the officials had stolen money or tangible property; they further theorized that “fraud” included the concept of depriving citizens and the government itself of their “intangible right” to have public affairs conducted honestly.

In its 1987 ruling in McNally v. United States, the Supreme Court rejected the notion that prosecutors could construct a “deprivation of honest services” crime out of a fraud statute, and it chastised the lower courts for indulging this errant interpretation. The justices reaffirmed the Court’s long-held conclusion that

the words “to defraud” commonly refer to wronging one in his property rights by dishonest methods or schemes, and usually signify the deprivation of something of value of by trick, deceit, chicane or overreaching.

(Emphasis added; citations and internal quotation marks omitted.)

In the fraud statute, the Court reasoned, Congress was focused on “frauds involving money or property.” If there were any ambiguity about this, Congress could clear it up by enacting a more expansive statute “in clear and definite language.” But, the justices admonished, “there are no constructive offenses” — prosecutors have to content themselves with misconduct that “is plainly within the statute”; only the legislature has the power to invent new crimes.


Congress promptly took up the Court’s invitation and enacted a fraud statute that expressly targeted schemes to deprive people of “the intangible right of honest services.” (See Sec. 1346 of the penal code.) Even more than “defraud,” however, the elusive term “honest services” proved ripe for prosecutorial overreach. After defendants repeatedly challenged the statute on vagueness grounds, the Supreme Court finally limited it, in Skilling v. United States (2010), to cases involving bribes and kickbacks.

The lesson is clear: The concept of fraud, including fraud on the government, is to be given its traditional, commonsense meaning of a deprivation of money or tangible property. If there is to be criminalization of other kinds of schemes that deprive the government, not of its tangible assets, but of its capacity to carry out its functions effectively, it is for Congress to proscribe these schemes in clear criminal statutes. Prosecutors may not legislate new crimes by mushrooming the definition of “fraud.”


Yet this is exactly what Mueller is doing.

real winner, this mueller...
 
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protesting, is not in and of itself, disrespectful. any patriot knows that.

context matters a lot. if i wanna protest the UK and i pour human crap all over the union jack in public. is that ok? if it's legal and I have free speech I should be able to do that. Will that anger people? Probably. Will that maybe hinder my efforts at getting my message across? Is this the best way to protest? Do I have the right to protest against a protest that I disagree with? Like it or not the flags of countries are incredibly symbolic since people often fight and die for their flag and country, which is really to protect their family and children.
 
lets try to keep this on topic instead of straying even further off onto this nfl protest tangent.

protests are being organized to start pretty much immediately if mueller gets fired, or otherwise obstructs the investigation to prevent due process from taking place.

Donald Trump is publicly considering firing Special Counsel Robert Mueller, the person leading the Department of Justice investigation of possible criminal actions by Donald Trump and members of his presidential campaign, as well as the efforts to conceal those activities.

It's also possible that, rather than firing Mueller, Trump will obstruct Mueller's investigation by issuing blanket pardons of key figures being investigated, firing Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein (the person overseeing Mueller), or taking other actions to prevent the investigation from being conducted freely.

Any one of these actions would create a constitutional crisis for our country. It would demand an immediate and unequivocal response to show that we will not tolerate abuse of power from Donald Trump.

Our response in the hours following a power grab will dictate what happens next and whether Congress—the only body with the constitutional power and obligation to rein Trump in from his rampage—will do anything to stand up to him.

That's why we're preparing to hold emergency "Nobody is Above the Law" rallies around the country, in the event they are needed.
 
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