Esoteric The Main Synchronicity Thread

[secretagents]

I've never understood why we must experience anything to do things like "learn" to avoid injury etc., and thus to survive. A robot can be programmed to do these things, and I suspect it experiences nothing..

The difference is that a robot is build finished, it can be loaded with whatever full information is deemed necesary by it's creators for its optimal functioning where it is going to operate. A human grows from a single cell which cannot contain the nearly infinite information that would allow him to operate optimally in whatever circumstances it could encounter.

 

[Jabberwocky]

What is your take on zombies or the Mary Problem? I've never understood why we must experience anything to do things like "learn" to avoid injury etc., and thus to survive. A robot can be programmed to do these things, and I suspect it experiences nothing. After all, simple analogue computers exist whose full workings are visible for inspection, and we can see how, at base, they're not that much different than damn dominoes. It's obvious that their output behavior looks intelligent, but also obvious there is no experience in the fall of dominoes. A computer can beat the best human players of chess, but it doesn't play chess like humans (and humans don't play chess the way it does (trillion chess-positions a minute anyone?)) or understand the spirit of the rules. It's just an extremely complex compiler mechanistically following intricate instructions. We can follow human-written instructions mechanistically off a sheet and start arranging unrecognized ideograms into sequential orders without any understanding emerging about what we're doing, even if later a Chinese reader comes in and congratulates us on writing a great joke (Searl). Or, human beings could arrange themselves into communications networks exactly modeling the neural firing sequences of pain the way a computer might, without that network actually experiencing pain (Chinese Nation). Though some think the network would.

I understand how my shirt emerges from cotton, or how in stereochemistry chemical properties emerge irreducibly not from the substance of their constituents but from the immaterial spatial relationships those constituents hold to one another. But while material description does not exhaust the description of properties emerging from spatial relationships, third-person data still does. This is why I'm a little confused by the analogy you make between the digestive system and the mind: because the digestive system's kind of emergence isn't a problem in the same way the mind's is. To go back to stereochemistry, unlike the physical and mental, it's clear that substance and spatial relation aren't two distinct ontological categories.

That the brain is intrinsic to mental interaction with the physical world is obvious, but Intentionality, the fact that mental events are always about something, and physical events never are, is a huge chasm that in my opinion couldn't distinguish between the two more deeply or decisively. "Aboutness" is fantastically different than "thingness". Epiphenomenalism seems like something from nothing. That the mental can fundamentally emerge meaninglessly from the physical just because purely physical, non-experiential components are arranged complexly in certain ways--despite its being the predominant view among scientists--seems like dogmatic and magical thinking to me that falls far short of what our intuitions tell us. Notice the austere distinction between fundamental intuitions about ourselves and our frequently wrong intuitions about the physical world. As a matter of simple epistemic privilege these latter intuitions are the one's frequently displaced by scientific description and not the former.

Science is an amazing social practice/method that is constantly bringing more under it's methods of understanding. But these methods and ways of understanding are themselves paradigmatic, and an overly broad faith in and application of these paradigms remains because they've been so successful, and will continue to be, in describing the physical world. It's a success that is in retrospect not that surprising, and everyone wants to be on the winning team. Yet despite all its progress in so many other areas and its penetration into psychology and the workings of the brain, we're no closer than the Greeks were in answering the hard how and why questions of consciousness. And it's also not that clear why a neurochemist or a physicist trained to think within the paradigm should have great insight into qualia or Intentionality anymore than a Hollywood starlet should have into conservation or politics either. Maybe this is all just a coincidence and a matter of giving it more time, but then again maybe science's current modes of conception simply can't be mapped onto these more incorrigible problems.

Psoodonym! This is an AWESOME post...thanks. I'm going to read it over again and think about it tonight and formulate a response for you tomorrow when I am caffeinated. I have a lot to say about zombies, though, that gets me especially foaming at the mouth, drooling on myself in excitement.

 

[yoyoman]

Only recently have I understood this concept: Science is (in many many ways, yet different) just like Faith. Like believing in a god, a religion, think about it...

I've been a science freak all my life, but i never made this connection, seems so obvious now.. Science itself, all of it, is like... a religion, the religion of science?

Sure, we use it, (or we think so..) but when so and so comes on TV or you read this book by a "high priest" that you resonate with , something scientific, tests done, experiments done, said this and that was the outcome - you *BELIEVE* them because you TRUST them.

Were you there watching all these experiments we believe in? I wasn't (not that i know of.). Did i see the outcome with my own eyes/consciousness? Sometimes... after being told this is the way it works etc etc. (when something goes wrong - thinking of middle school here, "unexplainable things" we just kinda say huh.... doesn't make sense well something must be wrong here etc)

Can you see the intimate connection between science and faith? Belief? Trust?

--------
But for some reason Stephen Hawkings or Einstein comes to mind... Einstein when he couldn't figure out a solution to a problem, he would sorta meditate (read this a couple times, sounds like him though!) get his mind not asleep but slow brainwaves and someitmes the answer / solution would just "come to him" in this state (read he did this often), like intuitive etc..

-------

Nothing against science at all, lol like my dad said (considers himself a scientist) science is like a never ending continuously growing big pile of bullshit, ..but we use it anyway!

 

[swilow]

Oh, IGNVS! Very cruel asking someone to define consciousness. Here's my take...

Consciousness is a biological process.

My take on it would be to say that conciousness is the AWARENESS of a biological process.

So SS, there is no afterlife? No life after bodily death? No heaven or hell? Because when viewing conciousness as a byproduct of the body, when the bodies gone, you can kiss goodbye to existence.

 

[IGNVS]

Hey Dude - you're all over the place! I can't handle you!

Define consciousness! Define collective consciousness! Jeez! Easy buddy, easy! 8(

What do you think about collective consciousness? While I believe it is conceptually possible (that two distinct entities inhabit one consciousness), I don't think what we call collective consciousness is really that phenomenon (I think that phenomenon may very likely not be naturally possible - ie possible in this actual world).

I think collective consciousness has more to do with the sharing of 'memes' as well as similar conditioning in the society we are all embedded in. I use it metaphorically for two purposes (one it is a fascinating concept even if its only a conceptual possibility and two it is a handy shorthand to get at this archetypical thought constructions we all share from episodes of, say, Full House and Simpsons).

Your turn! I wuv you wittle IGVNS.

"I think collective consciousness has more to do with the sharing of 'memes' as well as similar conditioning in the society we are all embedded in."

ok, i agree, kind of archytipical sorts of things . think about thoughts in general here for a second. think about all of the thoughts you think, and how many others have thought similarly from a perspective where time is insegnificant (think somewhat like where dmt takes you). what universal thoughts are there that lead to the same synchronicities in the consciousness's being? im not sure if the way i put that conveys the meaning proporly, but you get the idea right? let me use diferent words. (also dont forget that your consciousness is not just what you are thinking now, but all things in your "set".) what "shared" thoughts are entering your mind, sometihng deeper, more eternal, but slightly altered (acording to your filter of reality, once again refer to set and "conditioning in the society we are (oo and have been) all embedded in") entirety of the reality of what it is (lets call it a spirit shall we) have you been in. now, how are these spirits interacting with your psyche? can you see them yet? have they even been exposed to you? have you separated yourself from them, taken the step back to find truth. if you have you may see similarities in some. if you think about synchronicity you may be shown many paterns revealing, from and even at times generated by your own mind due to the course of your life, paterns that show you reality, and some that mask it. some may go as far as to call them entities of a supernatural world (think christianity, or any religon for that reason). it gets deeper too, as does any train of thought in a true spirit (so many more words those words may release)
release them.

so you see its not nesesarily a colective consciousness, as it is what it actualy is. i supose you need to find it for yourself and put it in your own words to proporly understand (which is why making someone teach something makes them understand it better).


side note: conceptual possibility, does it not effect anything? think about it, look through history for a second. the idea is a powerful thing, and something of which i would say a large part of our consciousness.

"archetypical thought constructions we all share from episodes of, say, Full House and Simpsons"

and much more than just the simpsons, much much more lol. wuv u too.

to secretangents:

"And consciousness is simply the capability of being aware. That's all very simple."

yes quite simple, and at the same time it carries all that is in it--all that we have. how aware are you? remember those spirits? which one would you say lead to awareness, which helped your spiritual evolution? which are you even aware of? which ones keep you unaware?

Only recently have I understood this concept: Science is (in many many ways, yet different) just like Faith. Like believing in a god, a religion, think about it...

to whoever wrote this-
"I've been a science freak all my life, but i never made this connection, seems so obvious now.. Science itself, all of it, is like... a religion, the religion of science?"

what laws are there to science. what process is it. in what aditude is its objective? how does it shape your mind? in what spirit do you practice science? in what practice do you discover truth?

"Were you there watching all these experiments we believe in? I wasn't (not that i know of.). Did i see the outcome with my own eyes/consciousness? Sometimes... after being told this is the way it works etc etc. (when something goes wrong - thinking of middle school here, "unexplainable things" we just kinda say huh.... doesn't make sense well something must be wrong here etc)"

because it wasnt in your awareness.

willow's
"My take on it would be to say that conciousness is the AWARENESS of a biological process. " :

+1 dude +1

 

[fastandbulbous]

Whatever it is, it's evolved as the way evolution has fashioned us to be the one that works best. Conciousness had some role in making us a more lean, mean surviving machine - natural selection always picks the winner.

Maybe all this belly-button gazing is something to be ironed out in the design process!

 

[swilow]

^^^Unless something else is behind the scenes doing the picking and choosing *insert twilight zone music*

 

[e1evene1even]

My current take on this (open to change at any moment) is that the brain and DNA act similar to a radio/tv with a tuner and filters.

The "ego" may be a construction/product of the DNA/BODY/MIND/FILTERS, but the "Self" exists outside the physical body and is projected though the physical body which it animates.

I also believe the hearts role is also greatly overlooked and misinderstood. In my opinion the role of the heart is much more than a simple pump:

Close to a century ago, Rudolph Steiner said the greatest discovery of 20th century science would be that the heart is not a pump but vastly more, and that the great challenge of the coming ages of humanity would be, in effect, to allow the heart to teach us to think in a new way. Now, that sounds extremely occult, but we find it's directly, biologically the case.

...about sixty to sixty-five percent of all the cells in the heart are neural cells which are precisely the same as in the brain, functioning in precisely the same way, monitoring and maintaining control of the entire mind/brain/body physical process as well as direct unmediated connections between the heart and the emotional, cognitive structures of the brain. Secondly, the heart is the major endocrine glandular structure of the body, which Roget found to be producing the hormones that profoundly affect the operations of body, brain, and mind. Thirdly, the heart produces two and a half watts of electrical energy at each pulsation, creating an electromagnetic field identical to the electromagnetic field around the earth. The electromagnetic field of the heart surrounds the body from a distance of twelve to twenty-five feet outward and encompasses power waves such as radio and light waves which comprise the principle source of information upon which the body and brain build our neural conception and perception of the world itself. This verifies all sorts of research from people such as Karl Pribram over a thirty year period, and opens up the greatest mystery we'll ever face.

The next discovery is of unmediated neural connections between the heart and the limbic structure, the emotional brain. Now they've found that neural connections go right on up through the amygdala or the cingulate cortex into the pre-frontal lobes.

Perhaps many of the poets and mystics were right all along when it comes to the heart?



----
A few lines from one of my favorite Modest Mouse songs, that reflect on this topic:

In the last second of life, they're gonna show you how

The stars are projectors, yeah
Projectin' our lives down to this planet Earth
The stars are projectors, yeah
Projectin' our minds down to this planet Earth

God is a woman and the woman is
An animal that animals man, and that's you
Was there a need for creation?
That was hiden in a math equation
And that's this:
WHERE DO CIRCLES BEGIN?

 

[BecomingInsane]

I hear you about the patterns man but pattern psychosis is the worst. I now use these patterns for amusing my own self and others by abusing them and crossing over on high dose speed+mdma comedowns, after dosing GBL all night so I have even more stimulation and total mind warpage the next day. Then get staight into the weed, K and N2O...

Using these 2D patterns with practise on drugs and two different dissociatives using fast electronic music, you can change the way you look and move to an inhuman being... like warp the shape of your muscles and jaw structure Here's some disturbing examples for your viewing pleasure.... Notice how you can control blood pressure and breathing techniques to help accomplish this. By using very fast hyperventilation that isn't actually getting any oxygen in or letting N2O escape... its just tricking the body... I can go about ten minutes or so doing this then have a huge near death experience and snap out of it.. Takes about half an hour to recover and all the green, red, blue and purple dots go away.

Someone care to tell me what the fuck condition I have to do this shit.. It isnt video trickery or anything like that, just straight off a camera.

There are 6 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJPVKgt30w (this one isn't that special.. check others first so u dont think im just a loony. cos im a loony with magical powers!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBp_XJjdQds (one of the worst)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsicOSJOEhs (the hypertension seizure fastness and facial warping)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YiMC2dp-nw (a wtf also..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POas2uFNlA8 (more hypertension weirdness and facial warping that looks like satan is coming out)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJRtxoqwLhs

Maybe im coming down hard and this doesn't belong in this thread, but its all related to patterns for me, everything is!

And we're all in hades, the sooner you realise the better the world will become.

Just wait until you feel the spirit rain on your skin, not leaving a wetness, but the feeling of being rained on in a closed room or car... Maybe Gods all fuckin with us


Edit: forgot to add one of the pills had a fair whack of MDA in it too, and I couldn't piss for the whole night and most of next day so I was suffering from a bit of water intoxication (you can probably notice this around my neck) as I drank loads of water as I was at a rave for the "social" part of the experience.

 

[cognosis]

^^dude, fucking listen to Otto Von Schirach, that shit you're listening to sucks. and maybe it's the n20 that's making your face schiz out.

 

[cognosis]

^^^Unless something else is behind the scenes doing the picking and choosing *insert twilight zone music*

Which scenes though and what's behind them? The physical sciences set out on a mission to conquer length depth and width. Since, it's done to an unprecedented job of creating and manipulating these coordinates, but ignored the rest of the dimensions we're embedded in (ie. culture, the internet?).

It seems that everybody on Bluelight is caught up in the problems of Cartesian Dualism: Here/There|Mind/Matter -- what's happening is more complex than that guys!


Possible explanations:

I. Consciousness could exist in a separate|discrete space that exists beyond-beside the physical universe. --This would be akin to Cartesian Dualism and Christianity, two planes of existence (matter and spirit) are mapped onto each other and while not directly correlated impose some kind of effect on each other.

or
II. Consciousness arises much like sparks do when you strike flint and steel together and is nothing more than bio_physico_chemo biproducts of a physical system. --This would be a reductionist viewpoint, most often taken by neuroscience in trying to explain behavior. There's a really big problem though trying to correlate neurological events with motivations as to why a person might do something. Yes, there's evidence for localization of particular attributes of the behavior of humans, like if the Brocas area of this here apricot gets hit with a rock I can't talk good no more. But does that mean I'm not aware I can't talk good? Is the brain *like omg* an organ that structures thinking into particular modes of expression? If throughout time and history there are these re_occurring archetypes, instead of monkeys discovering hyperspace could they be tapping into the particular architecture that's shared among the species? I mean like, aren't Homo sapiens one of the most genetically similar species to one another? Isn't it weird that of all the languages in the world, they all encode the same parts of speech(subject, verb, direct object). I digress.

or
III. Ancient Egyptians believed there were five parts of the soul. --This is obviously a metaphysical model, but accounts for many aspects of being that aren't typically discussed in modern context of soul where we conceive of that thing as being a singular point of reference.

Or
IV. Mind-Consciousness could consist of a material that is of a highly dynamic nature and does not operate according to the physical particles encountered in the range of sensory perception the human organism can observe with current instrumentalities and with enough efficacy to capture the attention of traditional physical sciences. --This would be a standpoint in line with contemporary physics, brane cosmology, string/M- theory. The idea that there are different levels of influence and stratification of reality-energy and that in different bands particles act differently. Also, there's an issue as to how strictly the distinctions and belief in discontinuity between different energy bands should be posited as there are many in-between states and interactions where the dynamics aren't fully understood.



+These are just a few examples, and can change depending on the whim of the subject, whether they want to take a more mystical/religious/spiritual viewpoint or a scientific one.


~I think it's a mistake to think again to inherently think of consciousness as a noun, opposed to ^a quality of being^ [i'm not exactly sure what the implications of the distinction would be] that can arise when certain conditions come together and are sustained (just focus on your breathing). If consciousness exists as a noun and subject, Can a rock be conscious? Can an Amoeba? What about a Bonobo? &What distinguishes consciousness from self awareness from thinking? What is the difference between observer, subject, ego, soul, mind?

 

[BecomingInsane]

It's perfect for what its used yo in those videos.

 

[cognosis]

It's perfect for what its used yo in those videos.

Makes some vids after you smoke some 5-meo-dmt along with salvia. and if you want some proper tweaked out music, listen to Otto. http://youtube.com/watch?v=680yz5WtF24

 

[Jabberwocky]

Why do people find it so hard to accept the awesome power of creativity of the human mind?

Does everybody realize the (nearly infinite) amount of possibilities for synaptic connections, we have billions of neurons, each capable of connecting to about 10 other neurons (depending on which types of neurons we're talking about), with a varying connection strength. It adds up to a huge number of possible connections.

There's no reason not to think that the human mind is the most powerful creative entity in the universe.

We are God. We've created consciousness.

 

[cognosis]

We are God. We've created consciousness.

for real for real. But that don't explain what we is or where we came from.

 

[swilow]

Someone care to tell me what the fuck condition I have to do this shit.. It isnt video trickery or anything like that, just straight off a camera.

Um, you were inhaling nitrous and pulling faces? Cool.... I could have sworn that was some digital shit 8) To be honest, it seems you may be doing something quite stupid and dangerous. Welcome to Bluelight

 

[swilow]

We are God. We've created consciousness.

Now thats a bit of a chicken and the egg type thingy there....

 

[Jabberwocky]

for real for real. But that don't explain what we is or where we came from.

Consciousness is awesome. Awe-inspiring. It is no wonder that we have searched for so long (creating so many Gods) to explain this phenomenon. It is a blessing for us to realize that we are the real Gods. I believe this is a fundamental message that psychedelics can give you.

My problem with the 'filtering' theory that so many people seem to favor here (and so many new-age, 'alternate' thinking people do also) is that it does not cohere with the fact that we CREATE consciousness. From raw sensory input and unconscious physio and neuro-physio processes, emerges consciousness. To filter consciousness means that consciousness existed before the filtering process. And, that simply does not cohere with anything we know about the neurophysiological bases of consciousness.

It may be the fact that there are other entities existing in this universe that are conscious, besides us and a few hundred other species of animals on this planet. We don't necessarily have a monopoly on consciousness, it is possible that consciousness was created separately multiple times. But, the fact that there may be other conscious entities in the universe does not necessitate that we are 'filtering' consciousness.

I politefully will add that I think a lot of you are either not thinking about this hard enough or are simply confused (I think there is some confusion of the place our perceptual processes has in consciousness).

There need be no position of extrinsic entities (Gods) responsible for the creation of Consciousness. This power is intrinsic to humankind. How amazing!

 

[Jabberwocky]

My take on it would be to say that conciousness is the AWARENESS of a biological process.

Oh, I very much agree with this statement. I think it is correct. It does not conflict at all with the position that consciousness is a biological process (awareness is an integral part of consciousness and awareness is itself a biological process). So, you have the case of certain biological processes (perhaps some theory of neuron synchronization) giving rise to other biological processes (awareness).

So SS, there is no afterlife? No life after bodily death? No heaven or hell? Because when viewing conciousness as a byproduct of the body, when the bodies gone, you can kiss goodbye to existence.

Yes. That is correct. This brings this topic back full circle. This is where the a-synchronous nature of reality really strikes one in deep psychedelic states (while writhing in the mud on mushrooms). Death is a complete cessation of everything. Enter the Void. It is scary.

One comes away (at least I do) with a life-affirming message: I must use my time on this Earth wisely. It is such a blessing.

 

[cognosis]

Consciousness is awesome. Awe-inspiring. It is no wonder that we have searched for so long (creating so many Gods) to explain this phenomenon. It is a blessing for us to realize that we are the real Gods. I believe this is a fundamental message that psychedelics can give you.

My problem with the 'filtering' theory that so many people seem to favor here (and so many new-age, 'alternate' thinking people do also) is that it does not cohere with the fact that we CREATE consciousness. From raw sensory input and unconscious physio and neuro-physio processes, emerges consciousness.

There need be no position of extrinsic entities (Gods) responsible for the creation of Consciousness. This power is intrinsic to humankind. How amazing!

What's pimp about our consciousness though is that we can create these independent thought forms that act kinda like a little *god-reality organizing principle* so we don't have to consciously create all aspects of experience all the time(the kids these days call not thinking about all aspects of your exp a neural adaptation). &Conscious systems are able to manipulate the ^symbolic order/level of mental representation-cognition^ in order to re/de-construct reality to tailor a particular version of reality which can then be transmitted via word-order.


+Additionally, awareness seems separate from space-time. This is what I mean when I'm talking about how there are many levels to which a Conscious System is embedded in. I'd say there's life after death, but not in the way of a consciousness retaining its sense of ego, but the structures a CS imparts on its environment continues on and changes the functioning of the rest of the reality_assemblage. IMO, it's absolutely crazy to say that the universe is disordered and that will only result in more entropy. Look at the process of crystallization, that's a non-organic instance of material organizing itself into a more sophisticated form.


:-D so much l-ov-e