Best response I've seen in this thread and one I - admittedly as a Lounge outsider - would suggest seems the blatantly obvious way forward. I don't agree with all of it though...
- Why should TL get special treatment when it comes to senior staff? Phrozen, for example, was on EADD's senior staff team for quite some time and was but one of several avowed Lounge Rats that we have accepted as our - mostly benevolent - overlords. "Understanding" a forum obviously helps when smodding over it but it is by no means necessary when liking it clearly isn't either. A willingness to listen to local mods and find a way to bridge their local concerns to more distant senior staff realms in a reasonably non-antagonistic way is.
- And I would also suggest that insisting members who post in TL have to tick a box somewhere saying they have read and agreed to the forum rules is also nothing more than Lounge Exceptionalism - all BL subforums have particular and unique ways and morays about them but the rest of us get by by simply nudging noobs in the right direction and this seems perfectly reasonable for TL to adopt too.
FWIW. on the more general "What is wrong with The Lounge?" topic... this thread is a fine example. Endless pages of interpersonal bitching and whining back and forth which is both impenetrable and utterly mind-numbing to outsiders. Of course all forums have similar issues but even when things are at crisis point Longefolk cannot seem to drop the bullshit and interact with the outside world even slightly. Obviously that doesn't apply to all who consider TL to be their home forum, but the minority is so vocal as to make it extremely hard to see the signal for the noise.
On a more basic level, for me the problem has never been one of "offensiveness" - this has been a massive red herring the whole time I've been on staff - so much as it has been one of outright bullying. TL has always had a small number of ringleaders who go above and beyond in terms of giving a very strong impression of being vile human beings. Below this rung there are a couple dozen witless sycophants who are even nastier only without any of the wit - admittedly vicious beyond belief wit but wit all the same in many cases - schtick that gives those ringleaders their air of authority. Beyond these you have a layer of perfectly amiable folk who walk the line between the hardcore rattus loungensis and homo sapiens and a whole shitload of wannabees, suckups and prey who go on to make up the next incarnation of the seemingly interminable Lounge hierarchy.
The structure of the place - the rigidly enforced pecking order and way of reaching the "top" - is what ultimately creates and maintains the "Lounge Problem" as far as I can tell. Imo and all that. How to change that? Not a clue. But Bomboclat's suggestions seem - for the most part - to offer a starting point.
Thank you for the well thought out and well written post, Shambles.
Before I reply, I want to bring attention to your last line:
But Bomboclat's suggestions seem - for the most part - to offer a starting point.
That is exactly right, my post was meant to be a starting point in the greater discussion of what I believe the lounge should look like moving forward. As I stated, a community based subforum should have rules that are community based. A dialectic, if you will, between community members and those who help run the forum. But I wont beat that point any further, I just wanted to bring that to the forefront of my reply.
- Why should TL get special treatment when it comes to senior staff? Phrozen, for example, was on EADD's senior staff team for quite some time and was but one of several avowed Lounge Rats that we have accepted as our - mostly benevolent - overlords. "Understanding" a forum obviously helps when smodding over it but it is by no means necessary when liking it clearly isn't either. A willingness to listen to local mods and find a way to bridge their local concerns to more distant senior staff realms in a reasonably non-antagonistic way is.
I dont think that my suggestion implied special treatment. I understand how the suggestion of having senior staff oversee the lounge be active lounge members differs from the norm of senior staff operations, but as we've discussed here in this thread the lounge is rather unique in its existence and operation. Moreover, imposing uniform structure in regard to its moderation has seemingly failed, as we see with the backlash toward current lounge senior staff. I dont think its too much to ask that those who are trying to manage law and order in the forum be active in its memberbase. This is a common trend of any successful community or business. How can one understand the inner workings and nuances if they have never actively been a part of them? You make a good point, that its important that senior staff be willing to listen to the moderators of that forum. However, I think in the case of current senior staff they have not done so.
- And I would also suggest that insisting members who post in TL have to tick a box somewhere saying they have read and agreed to the forum rules is also nothing more than Lounge Exceptionalism - all BL subforums have particular and unique ways and morays about them but the rest of us get by by simply nudging noobs in the right direction and this seems perfectly reasonable for TL to adopt too.
Right. The suggestion was more of a means of insuring that members have actually read the rules of the forum prior to posting. This would combat the amount of threads such as "hey guys anyone from *insert local town*? Whats up?!" and the backlash that would follow from members saying "lurk moar n00b". Would it provide 100% guarantee that new members would instantly understand the operation and flow of the forum? No. Would it provide the initial nudge in the right direction, to be followed up by staff members in the case that the rules seem to not have been read? Certainly. Again, its just a jumping point here.
FWIW. on the more general "What is wrong with The Lounge?" topic... this thread is a fine example. Endless pages of interpersonal bitching and whining back and forth which is both impenetrable and utterly mind-numbing to outsiders. Of course all forums have similar issues but even when things are at crisis point Longefolk cannot seem to drop the bullshit and interact with the outside world even slightly. Obviously that doesn't apply to all who consider TL to be their home forum, but the minority is so vocal as to make it extremely hard to see the signal for the noise.
On a more basic level, for me the problem has never been one of "offensiveness" - this has been a massive red herring the whole time I've been on staff - so much as it has been one of outright bullying. TL has always had a small number of ringleaders who go above and beyond in terms of giving a very strong impression of being vile human beings. Below this rung there are a couple dozen witless sycophants who are even nastier only without any of the wit - admittedly vicious beyond belief wit but wit all the same in many cases - schtick that gives those ringleaders their air of authority. Beyond these you have a layer of perfectly amiable folk who walk the line between the hardcore rattus loungensis and homo sapiens and a whole shitload of wannabees, suckups and prey who go on to make up the next incarnation of the seemingly interminable Lounge hierarchy.
The structure of the place - the rigidly enforced pecking order and way of reaching the "top" - is what ultimately creates and maintains the "Lounge Problem" as far as I can tell. Imo and all that. How to change that? Not a clue. But Bomboclat's suggestions seem - for the most part - to offer a starting point.
I have to disagree with you in some of what you say here. I think that this thread is a great example of the lounge overall and I dont see it as necessarily being bad. You have a combination of real discussion, trollish behavior, and general back and forth banter. That is the lounge in its bare-essence, and its what makes the lounge so great. You will never have a public forum where there is 100% agreeable behavior, and to expect such a thing is rather foolish (and honestly quite boring). In every social sphere there are a variety of people, expecting a uniform personality and posting style (in the case of an online forum) does not take into consideration such natural variety.
I agree that there is a pecking order in the lounge, but there always has been. When you have a social based community there will always be in-group and out-group mentality. However, as the lounge has shown me and numerous other members, this is combatted by community engagement. I think this really brings back to both my and phro's point that overtime the signal:noise ratio has become wildly skewed and its easier for those who contribute the most noise to overtake those who provide any signal at all. Making the lounge private really only exacerbated this issue, imo.
One of the issues that I think adds to the problematic nature of the current lounge pecking order is an administrative issue that has pushed out members and allowed for problematic behavior to outweigh anything else. How do you combat this? A starting point I gave was cleaning house, but that doesn't necessarily provide a total solution. I would hope that in the revamping of the lounge a working solution is set up, but it would be just that, a working solution.
