Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[Mycophile]

Guess what, tobacco was deemed safe when it was first brought to western society and had been used for thousands of years before that.

You guys can take that study with a grain of salt but I can personally say, as a person that was recently diagnosed with borderline qtc, that I began getting chest pains on kratom aswell as cold sweats and getting out of breath from just climbing the stairs.

That's when I googled kratom and arrhythmia's and found that medical study on mitrigayne and it scared me so I immediately quit, and the chest pains went away and I wasn't getting out of breath anymore. My kratom was always from established and trusted vendors.

I also noticed an odd rhythm to my heart beat as well once these side effects appeared along with an oddly low resting heart rate compared to before I switched to kratom to get off heroin and other opiates.

So I really believe that certain people with heart problems really shouldn't be taking kratom. That study seems to imply that mitragayne effects sodium or potassium channels in your heart, which is what makes Demerol and methadone cardiotoxic to some people and why methadone patients are supposed to have regular ekg's done to check for abnormal heart problems that came out of no where until the use of methadone maintenance.

My mom also felt really awful when I gave her a low dose of kratom and experienced chest pains along with feeling weak and dizzy from the kratom.

My mom and both my grandparents on her side of the family have heart problems aswell so I likely inherited them. I'm never using kratom again.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that you wouldn't, because you have a lot of factors linking you to heart problems.

If a person DOESN'T though, then I'm not sure that this study proves that plain leaf Kratom in vivo can have the same effects as pure Mitragynine in vitro.

I guess we'll just have to see more studies done and everyone will have to make their own decisions.

 

[deruyityn]

Its funny you mention the smoking argument because I have actually brought up the EXACT SAME thing in concern for mulungu; another very similar substance. Alot of overlap here regarding people's concerns.

Check out what sekio said regarding the very same issue:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...icity-risk?p=13157089&viewfull=1#post13157089

Excerpt from linked article:

Lung cancer was once a very rare disease, so rare that doctors took special notice when confronted with a case, thinking it a once-in-a-lifetime oddity. Mechanisation and mass marketing towards the end of the 19th century popularised the cigarette habit, however, causing a global lung cancer epidemic. Cigarettes were recognised as the cause of the epidemic in the 1940s and 1950s,

Based on what that link says, people were starting to drop like flies from cancer at a certain time so they tracked it back to smoking. It says how there should only be X amount of people dying from cancer, like it should be a rare thing, but they found loads of people getting it. So in that instance they tracked it back to smoking. They discovered a 20 year lag time between smoking and lung cancer.

To take another point you or someone made about thailand being a third world country probably with little means to diagnose such things. Thats something to consider of course but I am thinking if they figured the cancer link in the 40s in th western 1st world then could we not say that 3rd world thailand would probably be around the same level at least technologically as 1st world west back in the 40s? Ie even the worst technology nowadays is probably better than the best technology back then.

So this goes for all the largely undocumented ethnobotanicals. The question may be better worded as how likely is it that the scientific community would be aware of underlying long term side effects of a specific substance which has had a long, but not medically documented, history. And how would they go about finding them or indeed get the inclination to do so?

Actually now I read that article in more depth it discusses the methods used to come to their conlcusions. So you can just extrapolate that and surmise that that same method would be used for any other health abberation in society. Scientific method ftw!

Discuss

Guess what, tobacco was deemed safe when it was first brought to western society and had been used for thousands of years before that.

You guys can take that study with a grain of salt but I can personally say, as a person that was recently diagnosed with borderline qtc, that I began getting chest pains on kratom aswell as cold sweats and getting out of breath from just climbing the stairs.

That's when I googled kratom and arrhythmia's and found that medical study on mitrigayne and it scared me so I immediately quit, and the chest pains went away and I wasn't getting out of breath anymore. My kratom was always from established and trusted vendors.

I also noticed an odd rhythm to my heart beat as well once these side effects appeared along with an oddly low resting heart rate compared to before I switched to kratom to get off heroin and other opiates.

So I really believe that certain people with heart problems really shouldn't be taking kratom. That study seems to imply that mitragayne effects sodium or potassium channels in your heart, which is what makes Demerol and methadone cardiotoxic to some people and why methadone patients are supposed to have regular ekg's done to check for abnormal heart problems that came out of no where until the use of methadone maintenance.

My mom also felt really awful when I gave her a low dose of kratom and experienced chest pains along with feeling weak and dizzy from the kratom.

My mom and both my grandparents on her side of the family have heart problems aswell so I likely inherited them. I'm never using kratom again.

 

[Ziiirp]

Guess what, tobacco was deemed safe when it was first brought to western society and had been used for thousands of years before that.

You guys can take that study with a grain of salt but I can personally say, as a person that was recently diagnosed with borderline qtc, that I began getting chest pains on kratom aswell as cold sweats and getting out of breath from just climbing the stairs.

That's when I googled kratom and arrhythmia's and found that medical study on mitrigayne and it scared me so I immediately quit, and the chest pains went away and I wasn't getting out of breath anymore. My kratom was always from established and trusted vendors.

I also noticed an odd rhythm to my heart beat as well once these side effects appeared along with an oddly low resting heart rate compared to before I switched to kratom to get off heroin and other opiates.

So I really believe that certain people with heart problems really shouldn't be taking kratom. That study seems to imply that mitragayne effects sodium or potassium channels in your heart, which is what makes Demerol and methadone cardiotoxic to some people and why methadone patients are supposed to have regular ekg's done to check for abnormal heart problems that came out of no where until the use of methadone maintenance.

My mom also felt really awful when I gave her a low dose of kratom and experienced chest pains along with feeling weak and dizzy from the kratom.

My mom and both my grandparents on her side of the family have heart problems aswell so I likely inherited them. I'm never using kratom again.

I'm sorry to hear that. It is quite understandable, that you have prejudices towards the plant. I also have chronic conditions (swelling of old wounds causing neurological issues) after an accident. These days I'm avoiding visits to the doctor as I do not trust them because they did fuck up several times with different fractures already. And I'm getting by better than before.

My plan is to never visit a fucking undereducated M.D. voluntarily in my life again. Voluntarily means if nobody else can fix it as is the case with micro-granular surgeon work. If I get to know a veterinarian I'd prefer to go there for that.

What I'm not sure of is, whether poppy pods are harmless for a sensitive heart.

Edit : Moreover I have to add, that I also had encounters with very stimulating strains like Borneo/Bali White Vein, Indo, some Thai, that had a direct impact on the heart as a moderate/high dose of caffeine would have. I suggest cardio-"handicapped" users should not try those strains. I think Green Vein - strains are the most physically benign. So my resume is : There could be damaging Kratom strains. You can find the right one by trying low doses < 3g and observe, whether the heart is negativaly affected.

 

[《Plasticity》]

This is TL;DR material... I do realize that many are not willing to read this much however I refuse to sacrifice depth when pointing out the many holes present. Anywho, that tobacco comparison doesn't work at all. The health consequences of smoking is a very long process with people typically dying from cancer. When there's no internet for smokers to share with each other and the consequences of tobacco smoking are so cumulative it's obvious why it took so many years to realize the full dangers of smoking... I mean it's taking years and years for these people to develop the cancer in the first place. I can also go on and on about how far medical tech has come and how easy (and succesful) tobacco companies were at keeping these issues under the rug for so long with their pro smoking ads, as well as the lack of any other information outlets besides TV as well but that's another story. It would be naive to think tobacco companies weren't fully aware of what was going on long before it was made public though.

When the issue at hand is an instant problem (acute life threatening arrhythmias) and not only is there nobody dropping dead from cardiac arrest under the influence of kratom, but there has also yet to be any link whatsoever between this arrhythmias and kratom consumption it really should be of no surprise that there are doubts as to whether or not this is a true issue kratom users have to worry about. It does not take centuries to link deaths from cardiac arrest occuring minutes to hours after kratom ingestion to the drug. Given how vague the study is it raises questions as to whether or not your standard dose of kratom even contains enough alkaloid to potentiate (an important distinction) Torsada De Pointes. No doses were given. Also whether or not the culprit alkaloids still induce arrhythmias when other alkaloids with counteractive activity are present.

I think it's very important to point out that the conclusions of the study don't even say kratom causes this arrhythmia, but certain isolated alkaloids found in kratom may "potentiate" it dose dependantly, in vitro (with cardiac stem cells). Suggesting that you not only must have this issue to begin with, but that dose is the determining factor. In order to evaluate how the study translates to kratom you must factor in how using pure isolated alkaloids is not the same as using the plant itself. Let's take rhynchophylline and mitraphylline for example, these two alkaloids serve as anti-arrhythmics and vasodilators. Aside from it being possible that the dose of the isolated alkaloids required to potentiate TDP are unobtainable from a normal dose of kratom, it's also a possibility that these alkaloids counteract any of these arrhythmia issues seen from the pure isolated alkaloids in the study given their intrinsic activity.

Not to discredit pbuilder's experience because I know the warnings are coming from a good place. However, lot's of things can potentially cause chest pain and other cardiac symptoms including things like caffeine and yohimbe... When kratom contains alkaloids found in yohimbine (as well as other yohimbine-like stimulant alkaloids) and possible side-effects of yohimbe may include chest pain, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat any links from kratom to Torsada De Pointes without any medical confirmation should be taken for what it's worth... especially when there's already a history of heart disease present. It's just as, if not more likely, that the stimulant alkaloids are exacerbating a pre-existing heart condition than it is that kratom is inducing a very specific life threatening arrhythmia. While still an important issue... it's completely unrelated to the topic at hand and that is the potentiaton or development of Torsada De Pointes.

Kratom is more popular than it has ever been in the western world, if people must continue to discredit the centuries of usage in thailand (which is incredibly unfair) then do so. Even with access to the internet not only have there been no reports of Torsada De Pointes linked to kratom, but no deaths attributable to kratom alone. Given that it's standard hospital procedure to hook up any overdose patients to a heart rythym monitor and still no mention of TDP, it just seems very clear that this doesn't apply to in vivo ingestion of kratom and all of it's alkaloids. Caution is always welcome, however I think it's also good idea to examine the entire situation before drawing any conclusions.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^^

Thanks for all that info Plasticity.

Couple quick questions:

What did you think of THIS part of the article:

"Fatal incidents with Mitragynine have been associated with cardiac arrest"

WHICH "fatal incidents" are they referring to??

I've only heard of 2 POSSIBLE ones so far: this guy in Colorado they CLAIM died from Kratom but we don't have proof that that's true, and then there's one report that several years ago a 17 year old Heroin addict died after a combo of some kind of Kratom or Kratom extract along with some unknown dosage of some kind of benzodiazepene which they say was a "therapeutic dosage" and some unknown dosage of some allergy medication which they also say was a "therapeutic dosage" but we don't know what else could have been wrong with him, the exact dosage or type of ANY of the other drugs he took even if they are claimed to be therapeutic, and also, Heroin addicts are FAR from healthy test subjects....


Then I also just found out that all of the following drugs can cause Torsade de Pointes: Prozac, Dexadrine, Albuterol, Cocaine, Erythromycin, Azithroymcin, Ketaconzole cream, Risperdal, Ritalin and Pseudoephedrine.

I've used ALL of those, and was even on Prozac for 20 years but if people were dropping dead from it it would be pulled from the shelves as would the others so can we not compare their risks of TDP to those of Kratom?

And just as a personal question:

Do you think that the fact that I take ONE pill of Allegra D--(pseudoephedrine) along with my Kratom to prevent allergies...considering that Psedefed has also be linked with Torsade, and then like to go to the gym and do moderate to moderately-heavy cardio on an elliptical while on both (and caffeine...and ONCE a week Phenibut... is significantly risking my chance of heart problems??

I am more talking about the Kratom/Pseudopehd/exercise combo than once a week Phenibut or caffeine but I am WELL aware that I need to cut down on the caffeine as a risk factor and plan to do so next month.

I have personally never noticed any stimulation from Allegra D which is interesting because i DID used to notice stimulation from Sudafed, and I know that Allegra D has pseudo ephedrine, but it just doesn't feel the same at all...I never notice any extra stimulation after taking it and I think therefore that it may be somewhat different and less stimulating than the old formula.

EKGs, EEGs, stress tests and blood pressure monitors have all confirmed I have no heart issues or high blood pressure and I am in good shape and 35 years old.

It doesn't seem like it would, but I just wanted a second opinion if you have the time.

Thanks

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[《Plasticity》]

I'm not 100% sure where that info came from but I assume they're talking about deaths associated with the isolated chemical, not kratom. I assume that this info was learned from studies used to figure out the LD50 of mitragynine with cardiac arrest being what killed the animals who were injected with overdose amounts of mitragynine. This isn't exactly an uncommon cause of death though. As far as you're risk of arrhythmia I have no idea bud, I can only assume it's a very small risk but it would be impossible to calculate a percentage... this is something nobody can do, way too many factors.

Edit: My assumption was incorrect, I assumed that because there have been no cases of death from mitragynine or kratom alone documented that they gathered that information from LD50 studies. Turns out they're actually using case studies that involved other drugs as their source for that information lol. One being the o-desmethltramadol laced krypton kratom and the other being a case of death in which the deceased person had kratom, propylhexadrine, morphine, APAP, and promethazine (this was ruled propylhexadrine toxicity btw). They also mention other OD's with datura and modafinil involved as well as anither person found dead with kratom, benzodiazapines, and otc cold medicine in the victims system.

 

[deruyityn]

This is TL;DR material... I do realize that many are not willing to read this much however I refuse to sacrifice depth when pointing out the many holes present. Anywho, that tobacco comparison doesn't work at all. The health consequences of smoking is a very long process with people typically dying from cancer. When there's no internet for smokers to share with each other and the consequences of tobacco smoking are so cumulative it's obvious why it took so many years to realize the full dangers of smoking... I mean it's taking years and years for these people to develop the cancer in the first place. I can also go on and on about how far medical tech has come and how easy (and succesful) tobacco companies were at keeping these issues under the rug for so long with their pro smoking ads, as well as the lack of any other information outlets besides TV as well but that's another story. It would be naive to think tobacco companies weren't fully aware of what was going on long before it was made public though.

I wouldnt go so far as to say it doesnt work at all; it was merely an example to show how the sceintific community can successfully identify problems; unless you were referring to pbuilders use of smoking to discredit kratom's safety whereas I was arguing the otehr way. I was just saying for long term side effects they can still find the root problems. It jsut so happens (I didnt know about this thing so wasnt sure) this one would show itself immediately with sudden death so even better chances in terms of the likelihood of it being identified.

Anyway Im not interested in this thing it is a mountains out of mole hills as far as Im concerned. Kratom remains on my safe list

 

[RDP89]

Yeah , I take kratom alot at the moment(and on and off for awhile) and Im unconcerned.

 

[RDP89]

Yes, I know it isn't harmless.
I read one recent report of an overdose of caffeine powder, and the famous poet Balzac died from drinking something like 100 cups of coffee (why ANYONE would want to do that is beyond me).

So yeah, the whole snorting pure caffeine powder in comparision to drinking a few cups a day (LESS than what I do) is another thing I guess could be compared to pure mitragynine vs plain leaf Kratom.

Nothing is harmless.

I beleive Balzac died of complications caused by an overall unhealthy lifestyle, not a caffeine overdose. I beleive most, if not all of the kratom alkaloids to be neutral if not beneficial health wise. Im just going by my own feelings from taking it, I know theres not a whole lot of research yet to confirm or deny. I highly doubt Mitragynine is any worse on cardiovascular than caffeine. Again, just my own conclusions/assumptions. Im not recommending it as safe for anyone else. It is a use at your own risk type of thing, obviously.

 

[mike.vick]

^^^ don't assume kratom is safe. you make an ass of u and me

 

[Mycophile]

I beleive Balzac died of complications caused by an overall unhealthy lifestyle, not a caffeine overdose. I beleive most, if not all of the kratom alkaloids to be neutral if not beneficial health wise. Im just going by my own feelings from taking it, I know theres not a whole lot of research yet to confirm or deny. I highly doubt Mitragynine is any worse on cardiovascular than caffeine. Again, just my own conclusions/assumptions. Im not recommending it as safe for anyone else. It is a use at your own risk type of thing, obviously.

Well many sites say he died of caffeine poisoning and that has always been the theory but I did just see the now some sites are saying they believe it was largely more of an unhealthy lifestyle but certainly a large part of that unhealthy lifestyle was related to overconsumption of caffeine combined with sleep deprivation and hence extreme exhaustion and over working himself combined with a bad diet.

I don't know much about him, but it seems like it might be a good guess that had he drank a normal amount of caffeine he certainly would have lived a lot longer.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^ don't assume kratom is safe. you make an ass of u and me

He didn't say he thought it was totally safe, he said he thought the cardiovascular effects might not be worse than caffeine, which they might not.

We've been reading all of the latest studies and going over the latest WebMd study which "theorizes" Mitragynine can cause heart problems, but really after EXHAUSTIVELY looking at it it doesn't seem to be conclusive.

So far, there is still no STRONG evidence that Kratom poses serious health risks to healthy individuals, in terms of shortening life span or causing death.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I wouldnt go so far as to say it doesnt work at all; it was merely an example to show how the sceintific community can successfully identify problems; unless you were referring to pbuilders use of smoking to discredit kratom's safety whereas I was arguing the otehr way. I was just saying for long term side effects they can still find the root problems. It jsut so happens (I didnt know about this thing so wasnt sure) this one would show itself immediately with sudden death so even better chances in terms of the likelihood of it being identified.

Anyway Im not interested in this thing it is a mountains out of mole hills as far as Im concerned. Kratom remains on my safe list

Sorry I should have clairfied, I was reffering to pbuilder comparison. I can think of more than a few reasons why it doesn't equate to this situation. It's no surprise that it took many years to link cancer to tobacco when technology was so far behind, there's a lack of information sharing outlets, the laws regarding smoking advertisements were so loose, and the development of cancer is a very long process to begin with.

 

[Need4speed]

guys the ultra enhanced bali sucks donkey dick....plain leaf FTW !

 

[RDP89]

^^^ don't assume kratom is safe. you make an ass of u and me

I realize the danger of assumption and Im willing to take calculated risks.

 

[Northernn]

SWIM's experience with Kratom specifically "Maeng Da" strain, Made SWIM feel VERY sick similar to the opiate nausea! Post-Kratom use and the nausea stretched out 3 days!

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Fuuuck! My day one company is out of bali. I keep telling myself one more pound and I'll taper down, I guess I'll have to work with this last 1/2 pound and stay the fuck away from tianeptine.

 

[InfectedWithDrugs]

Has anyone figured out how to keep hand tremors and jitters at bay with Kratom usage? Any dose with opiate-like sedating effect (Bali crushed leaf) creates hand tremors for SWIM and even clonidine + Xanax aren't calming that down, which totally ruins the experience. Opiates + amphetamines > Kratom, but not for everyone SWIM guesses.

 

[belfort]

^^what about trying a beta blocker like propranolol?i also notice at times i can get shaky hands from kratom, but prop takes care of those for the most part..

ive tried 5-6 different strains now and i can only tell the difference between 1-2 strains..red thai vein seems speedy to me whereas the others ive tried(green malay, bali, white vein, red borneo) all basically seem sedating..i almost wonder if i mixed the strains up and didnt see what bag i was taking it from, i doubt id be able to tell which strain i was using..

i definitely can get very irritable on kratom even hours after dosing...ill be in a good mood but just not in a peaceful mood if that makes any sense...lol..it almost feels like roid rage in a way..

 

[FlawedByDesign]

I know what you mean about the roid rage. I used to be overly confrontational at my old job while under the influence yet still in a good overall mood.