Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[Beavesmx44]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

Your high daily caffeine intake is a much larger potential danger to the heart than dosing kratom 3x/week without a doubt. Chill out.....i'm sure you hear that a lot.

 

[Ziiirp]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

No you're not crazy. You're addicted.

If I'll die from a seizure and you read about it in the news plus a Kratom-bag near my corpse please be aware, that I tried all bunch of supposedly cardiotoxic RC-stims in the last few years which likely have contributed to my condition (which is not perceivable at all).

I think the only way to find out, whether this study is legit or pro-synthetic-drugs-propaganda funded by pharma-enterprises is to ask people from Thailand or south east asia, that grew up in the natural Kratom habitat, whether they know about sudden fatalities caused by Kratom ingestion.

 

[deruyityn]

Its something called the burden of proof.

And being skeptical doesnt = brushing something off.

Im the biggest worryer probably of anyone and even I am not moved to hysteria by this one.

Your claim about the long history of use of substances not meaning anything is very ill conceived. Its like trying to refute evolution.

Seems you havent done much research on kava either to just be spouting the most superficial propaganda.

I have been experimenting with kava recently agian myself and have had some worrying side effects from that in my mid section region so im glad to not touch that shit any more. But that is a case of negative side effects showing themselves making me stop and the effect of kava was so crap. though with kratom ive felt non so business as usual for me.

Anything that can potentially cause torsades is not something you want to touch with a ten foot poll.

Kratom has not been used by Caucasians for anything but the past decade and a bit, and how would they be able to effectively calculate the amounts of potential cardiac related deaths over thousands of years that may have been tied to kratom.

Let's not pretend kratom is some benign thing, it's an opiate and it gets you high. It has all sorts of mechanisms of actions that we do not even know of or understand, and that haven't been studied, and since toxicology reports don't test for kratom, and the deaths aren't caused by acute overdose how can we really have an accurate idea of potential deaths related to kratom, we can't.

This whole it's been used for thousands of years things is tiring. Kava kava has been used for thousands of years, and it's hepatotoxic. The truth is we don't actually know fuck all about how safe kratom is, and it worrys me how quickly you guys are going to brush off a study that could link a deadly arrhythmia like torsades to kratom like it's bullshit.

The thing about arrhythmia's is that they are usually symptomless until you drop dead from sudden cardiac death.

I'll I'm doing is putting this information out there so that people can make an informed decision on there use of kratom, especially if they have a pre-existing heart condition.

 

[Mycophile]

No you're not crazy. You're addicted.

If I'll die from a seizure and you read about it in the news plus a Kratom-bag near my corpse please be aware, that I tried all bunch of supposedly cardiotoxic RC-stims in the last few years which likely have contributed to my condition (which is not perceivable at all).

I think the only way to find out, whether this study is legit or pro-synthetic-drugs-propaganda funded by pharma-enterprises is to ask people from Thailand or south east asia, that grew up in the natural Kratom habitat, whether they know about sudden fatalities caused by Kratom ingestion.

MENTALLY addicted, no physical addiction other than minor RLS that went away in seconds as so far keeping it to 3 times a week has worked and I'm quite confident I can keep it that way as long as I want...but in reality Mental addiction may be a bigger overall issue than physical dependence.

But yes, my reaction to this has absolutely made me acknowledge I have a STRONG mental dependency on Kratom.

I wish there were studies from Thailand.

I'm trying my best to wait and see what new evidence shows up.

I mean people smoke cigarettes everyday knowing that even if they quit they could STILL get heart disease from it and almost certainly I stand a better chance of dying in a car accident tomorrow than ever dying from Kratom usage (knock on wood) but it's the SUDDEN arrythymia shit that gets me over long term usage.

However, I looked up drugs that cause the same problem, and Errythromycin an anti-fungal antibiotic I've used in the past can do the same thing...albeit I don't take it weekly and will avoid using it in favor of more effective antibiotics again.

I don't think studies like this will shake those of us hear who have or do use heroin or hard opiates, which is a large number, because they are already aware that what they do is extremely dangerous, but for people like me who put this in the category of "safe" drugs along with weed, nitrous, and spaced out usage of alcohol, it comes as a bit of a shock.

 

[Mycophile]

Its something called the burden of proof.

And being skeptical doesnt = brushing something off.

Im the biggest worryer probably of anyone and even I am not moved to hysteria by this one.

Your claim about the long history of use of substances not meaning anything is very ill conceived. Its like trying to refute evolution.

Seems you havent done much research on kava either to just be spouting the most superficial propaganda.

I have been experimenting with kava recently agian myself and have had some worrying side effects from that in my mid section region so im glad to not touch that shit any more. But that is a case of negative side effects showing themselves making me stop and the effect of kava was so crap. though with kratom ive felt non so business as usual for me.

I can see both of your points, but the point he makes that is good is that we dont' have a lot of records from those thousands of years of usage from thais and we can be sure that many of them had heart problem-related deaths for one reason or another so how many came from Kratom we will never know.

On the one hand if people were dropping like flies over their I kind of suspect we MIGHT know by now...but it could certainly cause a significant % of heart related deaths among poor thai people and we might never know here.

There is sort of something to the idea of also weighing years its years usage amongst people in more "first world" countries because these are the countries that will fund studies that I doubt they do as often in a country like Thailand (I could be wrong).

That doesn't however mean COMPLETELY disregarding all those many years of usage in Thailand or Indonesia or Malaysia.

I just don't know.

I want to read more opinions (even from people who aren't "educated" in the sense of being doctors) before I can figure out where I stand on this.

Alcohol and cigarettes would still probably kill more people than Kratom even if the same number of people usage Kratom IMO...but again, we still can't know.

 

[Mycophile]

Your high daily caffeine intake is a much larger potential danger to the heart than dosing kratom 3x/week without a doubt. Chill out.....i'm sure you hear that a lot.

I'd LIKE to believe that is true, but I've never heard of sudden death from caffeine usage.

SOME studies say high caffeine use is problematic while others seem to say it's pretty much harmless.

Caffeine doesn't usually lead to death, even high doses.

Then again Kratom doesn't USUALLY either.


I really want to hear more people on here discuss this more to help me reason out my own opinions on it.

I REALLY don't want to quit.

There are SO many Kratom users on this board I am a bit annoyed/surprised by how few have shared their opinions on it so far.

Granted, it has only been one day since this was posted, but I'd think all Kratom users who don't want to die from heart damage would have SOME kind of opinion on the matter........


If you are a Kratom user on this board and haven't shared your opinion on this and whether or not it will likely lead to you quitting Kratom and why, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[TMNPothead]

Ill continue to use. Been using it for years with no ill effects

 

[JackARoe]

I won't pretend that I understand all of that study (in fact I gave up trying), but I was kind of thinking the same thing. I mean, kratom has been used by humans for like a thousand years or something. I feel like if people were actually dropping dead from kratom that more than a small minority of this country would be aware of the plant.

And I think that is why there has been no rush to ban kratom, the lack of major hospital visits or death. I know Seiko had mentioned that once and I have been saying that. If someone's kid ended up in critical condition because of kratom we'd have bandwagons of people crying "ban it!". The lack of any real hospital visits and data in that direction keeps it out of the limelight. But in my personal opinion having utilized kratom since 2005 that (for me) it is pretty safe. I just had a full on physical and came out ok. (well, slightly elevated cholesterol but who doesn't?)

Now all the pharmacuticals we see in commercials, or just pick up the side of a bag of Doritos and look at all the long words, doubtful there were controlled tests for all those things. And for sure some can be dangerous. But kratom the tree leaf is a natural substance that does have a history of use. If there were no history then we can worry more. Also it is an individual thing. How healthy are you and do you feel ok after kratom?

Such a personal thing. Nobody can say kratom is this or that for everybody. And most of the news articles have been sensational journalism. Know your own body. And I can say with confidence at this point if something worries someone sick it is better to not do it. The worry and fretting will kill you. Something can be very healthy but if the person taking it thinks it is not and worries then it is not healthy anymore. Again, pay attention to your body.

I am sort of a strange bird. I tend to think most opiates or opioids are safe except for the lack of availability. (I know, that is not entirely true)

 

[《Plasticity》]

Now, nobody should take what I'm gonna say as gospel (ahem, myco, looking at you bud ) I'm simply playing devils advocate and voicing my opinions here... Anywho, I see no doses listed and whatever mitrgagynine and friends are causing it is "dose dependant". Who's to say that the amount of alkaloid in an average dose of kratom is enough to produce any of these effects? When there have been no recorded deaths by cardiac arrest in a person with kratom in their system, the cause of death associated with arrhythmias, there are no doses listed, and these issues are dose dependant, it's hard for me to take this as groundbreaking news here.

If you've got the money it's not hard to fund a study searching for negatives, just megadose isolated chemicals not list the dose... that is not to say that's what's going on here though. These arrhythmias may be very real issues but that still doesn't prove that these are issues you're average kratom user will face, nobody is isolating chemicals and (I assume?) IV'ing them. Any kratom user will confirm how self limiting the plant is when it comes down to how much you can ingest.

When the conclusions say that mitrgagynine may potentiate Torada De Pointes that seems to insinuate that you have to be susceptable to this in the first place right? I'm not sure what that's about. Also, the deaths from mitragynine that are said to be from cardiac arrest are reffering to the isolated chemical. There have been no deaths from acute cardiac arrest linked to kratom. Being that the dose is what makes a poison I'm not convinced that these arrhythmias will ever be a problem for the average user. You can easily isolate thc from cannabis and induce a death if you shoot someone up with a megadose but we all know that you're not going to kill yourself by ingesting cannabis itself. There's just not nearly enough to go on and it's another one of those studies that brings up more questions than answers.

As always always it's best to err on the side of caution but quite frankly this isn't cut and dry enough to make me think twice about taking it. Nobody should make their choice based on my words though, that's your responsibility to draw your own conclusions. What I can say is that I've had 5 or 6 (that's correct, about 5-6) EKG's and a treadmill stress test done in the last two years, been using kratom for over 5 years, and none showed any arrhythmia's... all were done under the influence of kratom. In the hospital I was also hooked up to one of those machines that constantly monitors your heart rythym, nothing. I do have structural damage to my valves but that's another story, heavy abuse of strong 5-HT2B agonists will do that... and the damage done by these drugs is very unique. I'm not encouraging anyone to blow the study off, but this isn't gonna change my views or usage.

Just want to bring this too everyones attention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

Kratom may cause the life threatening arrythmia torsades de pointes

To be fair the results of the study say that mitragynine may potentiate Torsade de Pointes rather than cause it, whether it was just poor choice of words I'm not sure...

 

[nealcassady]

I'm in my 9th year of kratom use. With 7 consecutive years of daily use. I brought myself out of daily use last year because of physical and mental addiction, and of course - because of cost.

I was diagnosed with high blood pressure prior to learning about kratom. Kratom has never had a significant impact on my BP. Indirectly, euphoria could lead me to being more physically active, which then increases BP, but that is besides the point.

Correlation does not equal causation, but I have also never gotten a cold or flu in the past decade. Chalk it up to being around the right people, or washing my hands, or a good immune system, or whatever else; but I can't ignore the fact that I continue to take quality plain leaf kratom, and have yet to discover any abnormalities with my physician.

A sixth month stint on benzos affected my memory in more ways than I could ever have imagined; I've yet to find a direct long-term circumstance such as that with my kratom use. Daily UEI use took my body through classical opioid withdrawal symptoms. Mental addiction can be a long-term consequence for sure, but physically: within 9 months I felt that my brain's reward system and my body were back to normal.

 

[Mycophile]

There are no doses listed and whatever mitrgagynine and friends are causing it is "dose dependant". Who's to say that the amount of alkaloid in an average dose of kratom is enough to produce any of these effects? When there have been no recorded deaths by cardiac arrest in a person with kratom in their system, the cause of death associated with arrhythmias, there are no doses listed, and these issues are dose dependant, it's hard for me to take this as groundbreaking news here. If you've got the money it's not hard to fund a study searching for negatives, just megadose isolated chemicals not list the dose.

When they say that deaths from mitragynine are from cardiac arrest, they're reffering to the isolated chemical. There have been no deaths from acute cardiac arrest linked to kratom. Being that the dose is what makes a poison I'm not convinced that these are issues a plain leaf kratom user will ever face. You can easily isolate thc from cannabis and induce a death if you shoot someone up with a megadose but we all know that you're not going to kill yourself by ingesting cannabis itself. There's just not nearly enough to go on and it's another one of those studies that brings up more questions than answers.

As always always it's best to err on the side of caution but quite frankly this isn't cut and dry enough to make me think twice about taking it. I've had 5 or 6 EKG's and a treadmill stress test done in the last two years, been using kratom for over 5 years, and none showed any arrhythmia's... all were done under the influence of kratom. I do have structural damage to my valves but that's another story, heavy abuse of strong 5-HT2B agonists will do that... and the damage done by these drugs is very unique. I'm not encouraging anyone to blow the study off, but I'm not convinced at all...


To be fair the results of the study say that mitragynine may potentiate Torsade de Pointes, not cause it.

Thanks for the fair and well thought out assessment Plasticity.

Based on what you are saying I feel that this will probably not be enough evidence for me to stop taking it YET but I want to stay abreast of these studies and be 100% HONEST WITH MYSELF about the dangers and I think it is important that more are done.

If any studies come out that really STRONGLY correlate PLAIN LEAF USAGE IN VIVO with these kinds of dangers I'm gonna have to say goodbye to Kratom and I think most would be wise to do so, but I don't think we are there quite yet and hopefully we won't ever be there...but all substances have dangers and this stuff is still largely LESS tested than some.

I considered the same "dose dependent" argument as well.

I remember being told in biology class in high school by my professor that like one PURE INCREDIBLY small amount of nicotine (forget the amount) could immediately cause seizure or even death and that he'd played a trick by placing a MINUTE amount on his friend and his friend nearly had a seizure.

That's not the same as smoking a cigarette, which is of course also dangerous, but not in the same scope.

But I think it is important that none of us brush these studies under the rug and I really like that you aren't doing that but are thinking this through the way I'd expect such an intelligent poster/moderator to do.

I remember you DIDN'T brush the accounts of jaundice experienced by some users under the rug and told others who were doing so that they shouldn't either, but that it probably had more to do with an underlying condition...and I really liked that.

I guess in the end there is still so much more we don't know and more studies need to be done, but as you said they are talking about the ISOLATED CHEMICAL in a lab.

That's kind of like the difference between a sip of beer and a shot of 160 proof moonshine...or maybe even a much bigger difference.

I'll be checking up on this to see what more people have to say, but I think more studies need to be done and that this one alone is not the final word on Kratom and whether or not plain leaf which has lower concentrations of mitragynine than used in this study IN VITRO is truly anywhere near as cardio toxic used IN VIVO.

 

[nealcassady]

Does anyone else have any experience with immunity to colds and kratom use? IE My spouse will get sick and I won't. For as long as I have been taking kratom, I've avoided the illness that went around the office and the classroom. Can anyone relate?

 

[《Plasticity》]

BTW there have been a handful of deaths attributed to caffeine myco, run a google search if you're interested. They're usually from huge doses of pure caffeine, caffeine pills, and energy drinks though. There are also plenty of studies showing negative effects of caffeine , it's not harmless.

 

[pbuilder]

Its something called the burden of proof.

And being skeptical doesnt = brushing something off.

Im the biggest worryer probably of anyone and even I am not moved to hysteria by this one.

Your claim about the long history of use of substances not meaning anything is very ill conceived. Its like trying to refute evolution.

Seems you havent done much research on kava either to just be spouting the most superficial propaganda.

I have been experimenting with kava recently agian myself and have had some worrying side effects from that in my mid section region so im glad to not touch that shit any more. But that is a case of negative side effects showing themselves making me stop and the effect of kava was so crap. though with kratom ive felt non so business as usual for me.

Guess what, tobacco was deemed safe when it was first brought to western society and had been used for thousands of years before that.

You guys can take that study with a grain of salt but I can personally say, as a person that was recently diagnosed with borderline qtc, that I began getting chest pains on kratom aswell as cold sweats and getting out of breath from just climbing the stairs.

That's when I googled kratom and arrhythmia's and found that medical study on mitrigayne and it scared me so I immediately quit, and the chest pains went away and I wasn't getting out of breath anymore. My kratom was always from established and trusted vendors.

I also noticed an odd rhythm to my heart beat as well once these side effects appeared along with an oddly low resting heart rate compared to before I switched to kratom to get off heroin and other opiates.

So I really believe that certain people with heart problems really shouldn't be taking kratom. That study seems to imply that mitragayne effects sodium or potassium channels in your heart, which is what makes Demerol and methadone cardiotoxic to some people and why methadone patients are supposed to have regular ekg's done to check for abnormal heart problems that came out of no where until the use of methadone maintenance.

My mom also felt really awful when I gave her a low dose of kratom and experienced chest pains along with feeling weak and dizzy from the kratom.

My mom and both my grandparents on her side of the family have heart problems aswell so I likely inherited them. I'm never using kratom again.

 

[nealcassady]

If you feel you have underlying heart conditions, you may greatly benefit from frequent testing and getting a diagnosis, if there is an active condition. Controlling and maintaining your heart condition via prescription medication and exercise should be everyone's first line of defense in living a healthy active life.

I gained control of my hypertension by trying out numerous medications and eventually settled on the one that works best. Changing my diet was then the next step in maintaining a lower blood pressure. Since my BP is controlled by my medication, I feel comfortable injesting varying amounts of kratom. I then monitor my BP every day with a pump.

The idea is that you should seek out a full on diagnosis and possibly medication if you feel uncomfortable with the way your heart is functioning on a day to day basis. Augmenting your in take of drugs and psychoactives is indeed a step in the right direction, but it's not the one stop solution for a healthy functioning heart.

 

[pbuilder]

If you feel you have underlying heart conditions, you may greatly benefit from frequent testing and getting a diagnosis, if there is an active condition. Controlling and maintaining your heart condition via prescription medication and exercise should be everyone's first line of defense in living a healthy active life.

I gained control of my hypertension by trying out numerous medications and eventually settled on the one that works best. Changing my diet was then the next step in maintaining a lower blood pressure. Since my BP is controlled by my medication, I feel comfortable injesting varying amounts of kratom. I then monitor my BP every day with a pump.

The idea is that you should seek out a full on diagnosis and possibly medication if you feel uncomfortable with the way your heart is functioning on a day to day basis. Augmenting your in take of drugs and psychoactives is indeed a step in the right direction, but it's not the one stop solution for a healthy functioning heart.

I know, I have a 24 hour holter monitor and an echocardiograph scheduled, along with a ekg.

 

[nealcassady]

Yeah, I saw that you mentioned a diagnosis of borderline LQTS. So, my suggestions were more directed to BL in a general sense more than they were to you directly. Have you tried out any medicines to lessen the risk of stress induced arrhythmias, like a beta-blocker? I've been on beta-blockers before and eventually settled on a different class of drugs to control my BP as they seemed to diminish my energy and mood overall. If you were to find a medication and overall regimen that took control of your issue, would you then maybe feel comfortable slowly introducing things like kratom back into your life? I'm just curious overall about that idea. As I took a similar route with my heart problem.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

I'd LIKE to believe that is true, but I've never heard of sudden death from caffeine usage.

SOME studies say high caffeine use is problematic while others seem to say it's pretty much harmless.

Caffeine doesn't usually lead to death, even high doses.

Then again Kratom doesn't USUALLY either.


I really want to hear more people on here discuss this more to help me reason out my own opinions on it.

I REALLY don't want to quit.

There are SO many Kratom users on this board I am a bit annoyed/surprised by how few have shared their opinions on it so far.

Granted, it has only been one day since this was posted, but I'd think all Kratom users who don't want to die from heart damage would have SOME kind of opinion on the matter........


If you are a Kratom user on this board and haven't shared your opinion on this and whether or not it will likely lead to you quitting Kratom and why, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

Well I've already gone through kilos of the shit and I'm still alive. I was even at the doctor 2 days ago and my blood pressure is good and when he listened with a stethoscope nothing gave him any concerns. Add in that I'm both physically and mentally addicted and still have well over a half kilo left so I won't be quitting anytime soon.

 

[pbuilder]

If you feel you have underlying heart conditions, you may greatly benefit from frequent testing and getting a diagnosis, if there is an active condition. Controlling and maintaining your heart condition via prescription medication and exercise should be everyone's first line of defense in living a healthy active life.

I gained control of my hypertension by trying out numerous medications and eventually settled on the one that works best. Changing my diet was then the next step in maintaining a lower blood pressure. Since my BP is controlled by my medication, I feel comfortable injesting varying amounts of kratom. I then monitor my BP every day with a pump.

The idea is that you should seek out a full on diagnosis and possibly medication if you feel uncomfortable with the way your heart is functioning on a day to day basis. Augmenting your in take of drugs and psychoactives is indeed a step in the right direction, but it's not the one stop solution for a healthy functioning heart.

Yeah, I saw that you mentioned a diagnosis of borderline LQTS. So, my suggestions were more directed to BL in a general sense more than they were to you directly. Have you tried out any medicines to lessen the risk of stress induced arrhythmias, like a beta-blocker? I've been on beta-blockers before and eventually settled on a different class of drugs to control my BP as they seemed to diminish my energy and mood overall. If you were to find a medication and overall regimen that took control of your issue, would you then maybe feel comfortable slowly introducing things like kratom back into your life? I'm just curious overall about that idea. As I took a similar route with my heart problem.

No way. Borderline QTC already puts me at a higher risk of torsade arrhythmia's and there is no medication for it that can 100% fix the problem. It would be a stupid risk for me to ever touch kratom again.

 

[Mycophile]

BTW there have been a handful of deaths attributed to caffeine myco, run a google search if you're interested. They're usually from huge doses of pure caffeine, caffeine pills, and energy drinks though. There are also plenty of studies showing negative effects of caffeine , it's not harmless.

Yes, I know it isn't harmless.

I also read one that was done that linked drinking more than 5 cups a day (aka what i do....) to possible heart disease, but said that between one to four cups a day is actually linked to LOWERED risk of heart disease, even over those who drink no coffee at all.

Can't find the study now but I'll look for it later.

Based on that I am going to ONCE AGAIN (I've tried like 30 times) cut my usage down to no more than 4 cups a day (still a lot for most people) which would put me in the safe (in fact even BETTER than abstaining) range, at least according to the one study I read.

I read one recent report of an overdose of caffeine powder, and the famous poet Balzac died from drinking something like 100 cups of coffee (why ANYONE would want to do that is beyond me).

So yeah, the whole snorting pure caffeine powder in comparision to drinking a few cups a day (LESS than what I do) is another thing I guess could be compared to pure mitragynine vs plain leaf Kratom.

Nothing is harmless.