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Kratom The Kratom Megathread

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^ Kratom may not be an opioid per se, but several of it's alkaloids certainly are.

Subotai: why don't you read these threads or use google before asking such questions?
 
^ It's not an opiate or opioid unless it's derived from opium, none of kratoms alkaloids are. They are simply mu agonists...

Edit: I stand corrected, I thought an opioid was a semi-synthetic derivitive of opium but apparently opioids don't need to be derived from opium at all according to wikipedia, just a chemical with a similar pharmacologic effect profile. Opiates however do need to be derived from the opium poppy. Thanks for the clarification :).
 
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I don't think that the resin extract is a good idea. In my experience even home made resins sucked, they take forever to dissolve so while it's nice to roll a ball of it and take it like a pill, but they take forever to dissolve again so you're doing yourself a disservice, you might as well get it down to a single gulp and then take it like that.

Has anyone tried boiling the water off under vacuum? Greatly reduced temps could be used. If you wanna make an extract, though, I'd follow the Malaysian method that Sekio talked about, defat with petroleum ether, then extract with ethanol or acetic acid. That'll get you a purer extract than doing a water extract first and then trying to clean it up.
 
Of course homemade resin extracts suck lol, it's just the simplest form of extract for anyone with no chemistry knowledge and takes no skill. If you can make tea, you can make a shitty resin. I would just suck it up and drink the tea or TnW the powder, when chased correctly there should be little to no taste whatsoever. There are plenty of more complex extract methods on the web afaik. You gotta keep in mind there's alot of simple folk in this thread with no chemistry knowledge whatsoever.
 
I'm making an extract right now. 100g pc Bali. Hopefully I'll get a gram of alkaloids out of it.
 
For those with experience with the SS- type extracts and enhanced strains. How do the other ultra enhanced types compare, the ultra enhanced Malaysian could be interesting. The ultra enhanced maeng da is probably too stimulating. I suspect it's like OEB. And that's not very enjoyable. What about the plain enhanced? Are these basically the same as UEI more dilute? What's better, the enhanced red indo or enhanced Bali?

I'm gonna try some FST and need to get something else to round it out. How much does 2ml of FST compare to 8gr of UEI? Has anyone dried FST and snorted it? I'd be interested in how that changes the onset, I wonder how much they behave as prodrugs to o-demethylated analogues.
 
I am *assuming* based on reports and events as of late that the other "ultra enhanced" varieties are just the same as UEI but with the "Indo" being replaced with "Malaysian", etc. As the leaf involved with UEI is basically inert I'd wager they are essentially the same, if my assumption is correct. Those that have tried them report them not being too different from UEI, and that difference could be due to suggestion. The vendor in question removed all plain leaf from their catalog recently due to import issues and the near disaster in IL, so they are probably just trying to drum up business with new offerings.

The plain enhanced are just Bali, etc added to UEI. Better deal to just buy UEI. If you aren't buying in bulk or have a good "loyalty" discount there is a reseller selling UEI a little cheaper in small quantities.

I loved FST. I'd down a 2ml bottle with my normal dose of PL....lovely. Might be a large amount for some.. but i also would take 7g UEI for a nice day out. I'm guessing it is the freebase form of the alkaloids in alcohol, for obvious reasons. Never tried evaporating it. Holding it in my mouth I'd feel it in minutes, which was a nice reprieve after the pain of 2ml of grain alcohol in the mouth! Such crazy tachyphylaxis with those extracts though....strange..

Re desmethyl.....interesting. Does conventional opioid SAR have any bearing on coryantheidine SAR? Never tried an overlay...not my department, that's yours! Might have to go to the dark side and see what's been discussed...

Recently read a paper on the synthesis of 11-MeO mitragynine pseudoindoxyl....unfortunately no binding or animal studies, just the chem....interesting nonetheless...
 
I suspect it does, most opioids become stronger with an aryl meta-OH group, and those with methoxy are weaker or prodrugs for the demethylated analogue. Tramadol, codeine, among others. I believe it fits in the same pocket as the tyrosine OH of enkephalin. I think that mitragynine probably is the main active drug in the plant, I don't think 7-OHM is, and instead I think that the mitragynine is o-demethylated to the active drug.

Now I wonder if 1-(5-methoxy-3-hydroxy-1H-indol-3-yl)-N,N-dimethylmethanamine would be active, sort of an indole-tramadol / stripped down 7-OHM.
 
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Amanitadine- what's the better deal though, 8g of UEI or 2ml of FST?

If the UEM and UEMD are basically the same as UEI then they're one hell of a deal.
 
I feel so cold without kratom (not full blown chills or hot flashes this time, might be because i take pregabalin), luckily i found some etizolam lying around for the anxiety. bleh.
 
Weird, it doesn't have any warmth in my experience. Actually despite having been using it for the past two months, I'm not sure what good it is recreationally. I would notice a mild opioid effect from subs. Whether I experience one from kratom is rare and usually requires me to be in withdrawal pretty strongly. Not even slight miosis, not even slight itching. 30mg of codeine would make my nose itch slightly.

Oh well, UEI is amazing and I've got 24g and 3 mL fst on its way, should be here tomorrow. It's like legal oxy. I'd say ban stuff like that if something has to be banned, leave the natural leaf alone.
 
Hammilton- never mind my "assumptions" about the other "ultra enhanced" varieties....it appears they are just leaf fortified with UEI. The enhanced Bali they offer they used to claim was a 1:4 ratio of UEI/Bali....they no longer post such on their website I just noticed, but that ratio always "felt" true. They claim the new varieties are stronger, but they aren't exactly honest folk. The few people I've talked to who have tried them however agree that they are indeed more potent...

As far as UEI and FST that's a tough one....they are pretty different yet similar. When I'd buy the FST 2 ml (it actually comes as 3 ml) I'd just down the whole thing along with 7g of leaf. It was ~roughly on par with 3-5 g of UEI, but I preferred it. It packs a serious punch. Same deal as UEI though....crazy tachyphylaxis. They used to claim it took 150g of PL to make 2ml of tincture...but as I've stated, I've ran HPLC on it and there is no mitragynine in FST.

I don't think coryantheidine plays much of a role in the "ceiling" effect of PL. I'd wager mitragynine is the culprit for the "wobbles" (nystagmus), dizziness, etc, due to it's adrenergic action. I've tried isolated mitragynine, and it does produce these effects, and is much less pleasant than plain leaf. Another oddity....large doses of UEI or FST allow me go take much larger doses of plain leaf concurrently without the side effects. I'm gonna guess the straight opioidergic effects of these extracts can negate some of the nasty adrenergic effects of mitragynine...

It varies incredibly what people's "ceiling" dose is. I used to be able to take 15g to good effect. Then my max became 7g....anything over and I'd get the "wobbles". ...hence the 7x7 dosing regime I was on for a few years before I finally quit. Hard stuff to kick at those levels....even with the help of Ibogaine. Ibogaine worked great on the straight opiodergic part, but I was still left with the ever lingering SNRI and calcium channel blocker like withdrawal.....those are the best analogies I can come up with, whether or not they are pharmacologically correct.
 
Yeah I'm finding that I need to reduce my dose as well, while increasing the frequency. I want to stay at about 12 to 15g per day tho.

Last night I cut down to 6.4g instead of my usual nightly 8.5 to 9. Consumed at 3a, when I woke up at 7a I had RLS already. Don't usually get that until 11 or 12 and then I wait till 1 to take a 3-4g dose, followed by maybe another 4g at 8 (often skipped it and used that as my bedtime dose at 3a, tho). Doing the math, tho, I'm over my target and I want to get back down. I don't even enjoy kratom. Never have. I like uei, I love UEI, it might be my favorite opioid after pod tea, and I consider it tied or a little better than snorting roxi's, if fst kicks in as fast as oxy it will take the cake, though. A whole bottle of fst is about 3g UEI, though?? Goddamn, that makes it a terrible deal. Btw, how did you measure? Those bottles are nice, but how do you get a measured dose, a non-drops measurement, that is? I had a syringe with a 18g needle that would have been perfect but I think I tossed it when I moved a few times back.
 
FST kicks in very fast...I'd say it is tied with pod tea for my fav opioid....much better than heroin even. I usually wouldn't bother with measuring....use that 3 ml as a shot heheh....but if I had the 8ml or larger I'd just use a 5 ml syringe with 17g needle. I will admit however to using that 8 ml (actually a 10 ml with their bonus) as a single serving before too! Yikes

Yeah, 3 ml is somewhere between 3-5 g's of UEI...a little speedier at first, but then a great euphoria and nod. Damn, making me salivate just thinking about it. Lasts all day too.

A few years ago, around the time 250x stopped being available, FST was even stronger....dangerously strong I gather. Many say UEI has been watered down over the years as well.....I would agree, but with tolerance and all it is hard to be conclusive about such things. But seeing as how demand has skyrocketed, I wouldn't doubt it.
 
Hey guys. After reading this thread I had decided to purchase some Kratom. I got some 50grams of Maeng Da powder.

I took it on a full stomach as it arrived in the post after I had ate.

Dose: 2.5grams
Effect Duration: 2-3 hours.

I was looking for a good stimulant and wanted to try Kratom and read Maeng Da was the most stimulant.

After I took 2.5grams I noticed after about 1 hour later I felt stimulated and relaxed at the same time. It was very stimulating and mildy Euphoric. I liked Maeng Da Kratom but was not fond of the duration. The effects only lasted 2-3 hours as I was looking for something that can last all day.
 
amanitadine said:
Hammilton-

I don't think coryantheidine plays much of a role in the "ceiling" effect of PL. I'd wager mitragynine is the culprit for the "wobbles" (nystagmus), dizziness, etc, due to it's adrenergic action. I've tried isolated mitragynine, and it does produce these effects, and is much less pleasant than plain leaf. Another oddity....large doses of UEI or FST allow me go take much larger doses of plain leaf concurrently without the side effects. I'm gonna guess the straight opioidergic effects of these extracts can negate some of the nasty adrenergic effects of mitragynine...

It varies incredibly what people's "ceiling" dose is. I used to be able to take 15g to good effect. Then my max became 7g....anything over and I'd get the "wobbles". ...hence the 7x7 dosing regime I was on for a few years before I finally quit. Hard stuff to kick at those levels....even with the help of Ibogaine. Ibogaine worked great on the straight opiodergic part, but I was still left with the ever lingering SNRI and calcium channel blocker like withdrawal.....those are the best analogies I can come up with, whether or not they are pharmacologically correct.
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Yeah, I think that someone who says 'kratom contains mitragynine and corynantheidine, an agonist and an antagonist, so it behaves like a partial agonist with a ceiling dose and blocking effects' is like someone putting a puzzle together finding two pieces that don't quite fit, but wedging them together anyway and then stopping. They ignore that the corynantheidine is present in minuscule doses and pretty weak to boot or that the so-called ceiling isn't really a level where the opioid effects stop getting stronger but instead the level where side effects become overpowering. Opioid effects likely increase just the same but the calcium channel blocking effects and the adrenergic effects overwhelm it. I think perhaps some alkaloids are similar to clonidine in activity, a drug known to alleviate withdrawal.

I think, and this is nothing more than speculation, that it seems impossible to overdose on kratom (in a life threatening sense) not because of a ceiling due to receptor activity, I think that maybe o- demethylation is needed to convert to the primary active but that it's not the main metabolic route, so that even with increasing doses you're just causing more and more to be metabolized to inactive metabolites, instead of the desirable o-desmethylmitragynine and o-desmethyl-7-hydroxy-mitragynine.

That's the best explanation I've seen and / or can come up with, so but it's one that takes everything into account. Could be completely wrong, but without better testing, it's the best I can do. I haven't read the full copy article which discusses kratom metabolites found in urine, but it'd probably have enough detail to rule this idea out. I know that o-demethylation is a metabolic fate for mitragynine, at least.
 
Ziiirp said:
I'm curious, whether he also has a (pretended) cure for Kratom addiction in the pipeline ? Once overdone, a Kratom habit is similar to every other opiate addiction. Yeah, it is much harder to overdo the plain leaf, because you need to have enough space in the stomach for all that dusty powder. But when people are dealing with extracts, there will be no difference at all. Kratom is relatively safe because of the limited scalability. By extracting the pure alkaloides one takes that safety away...
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I use the plain leaf exclusively, no extracts (except the first couple days off heroin) and while I agree it is addictive, it is just so much less so than opiates. Part of it is not wanting to swallow all that powder, it is just so easy to increase your dose of heroin you just put more in the spoon. Kratom is so much easier to manage. Kratom is so much less tempting to abuse in high doses. Even if you dont get off kratom, it is still the lessor evil compared to heroin addiction.

ANother thing I find is that I seem to enjoy kratom more than heroin. Of course it doesn't make me feel like a nice IV shot but I tend to find that when doing heroin daily, what happens is that I feel high 20-30 minutes after I shoot up and the rest of the time I just feel normal unless I significantly increase my dose. kratom allows me to stay a steady daily dose and get pleasant effects lasting 2-3 hours daily without the compulsive need to redose that I experience from heroin.

It is a more enjoyable, better drug than opium. Opium is good for acute pain but with chronic use in my exerpience it simply makes one more sensitive to pain. Kratom on the other hand, seems possible to use over the long haul without losing its pleasurable effects.
 
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