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The Indigenous Australian thread

^ Oh snap. This thread is actually a pretty good discussion in case you hadnt noticed the decent posts between the trolls (which have been removed now).

Quit complaining about the quality of threads unless you actually put effort into improving them. Seriously. :p
 
I found something quite ironic about the stolen generation..

recently in halls creek (a predominently aboriginal town) in WA's north the tribal elders were demanding child welfare to remove children and put them in emergency crisis care because they were worried about their welbeing if they stayed in their current situation as most of them were going days without food, water and basic hygeine care whilst their parents drank away most of their welfare entitlements...

*I'm not sayin that, in any way justifies the stolen generation*

it's just something interesting I remember reading about.
 
swifty said:
I found something quite ironic about the stolen generation..

recently in halls creek (a predominently aboriginal town) in WA's north the tribal elders were demanding child welfare to remove children and put them in emergency crisis care because they were worried about their welbeing if they stayed in their current situation as most of them were going days without food, water and basic hygeine care whilst their parents drank away most of their welfare entitlements...

*I'm not sayin that, in any way justifies the stolen generation*

it's just something interesting I remember reading about.

I've thought the same thing. Taking children away from families to bring them up in "better" care...isn't that exactly what the Stolen Generation was?
And now its something that most people are considering as an answer to the crisis we have (and always have had)....
 
swifty said:
I found something quite ironic about the stolen generation.

How the fuck is that in anyway ironic? Are you actually suggesting that this situation in anyway resembled what was done to the people of the “Stolen Generation”?

For fuck sake the Elders REQUESTED the children be taken, which differs from having your children FORCIBLY removed and “re-educated” for no reason other then they were Aboriginal.

Does it sound like the Government wants to take these children with the idea of breeding out and basically destroying the Aboriginal people and their culture “for their own good”? Will these children be forcibly taken and forbidden any contact with their parents, families and communities for years at a time? Will they be forcibly taken hundreds of miles from their homes and put into a residential school where they’ll be subjected to gross physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse for years? A place where they’ll have their hair shorn, be forbidden to speak their own language-under threat of physical violence-and be taught how shameful and inferior it is to be Aboriginal? Will they be dressed in rags when they arrive, be given sub-standard care and be forced to work many hours a day “for their keep” in what has been described as nothing short of forced labor?

Will these children be confined in this place-and in these conditions-for years, until they reach adulthood, at which time they’ll be sent “home” where they are now complete strangers to their families, to their communities and to their own culture? Do you think that then, after all they’ve endured, left with no identity, the scars of the mental, physical and sexual abuse many suffered for years still fresh in their minds, that these children will then be ostracized by their families and their community? Well, in a word I think the answer will be “no” to all of the above. What happened to the people of the"Stolen Generation" even slightly resemble the situation you’re referring to in WA and I really just can’t understand what you’re actually trying to get at?

Can you imaging what subjecting someone to this sort of situation does to a person mentally? Now imagine subjecting thousands of children in a small community of people over a period years to this; what sort of repercussions do you think this community is going to suffer? High instances of substance abuse perhaps? Physical abuse? Sexual abuse? Yeah, but I guess that they should-or even could-just “get over” something that’s had such a massively negative effect on their community where the effects are still being played out today.

Peoples lack of even the most basic understanding (as demonstrated by the two above posts) of this issue-not to mention empathy-is appalling, insulting and just plain sad.
 
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you don't see the irony in someone crying foul about something you did in the past in one breath, then pleading for you to do the same thing in another... how peculiar...
 
As Zero the hero just explained, it is not the same thing at all.

Removing children from parents who abuse or neglect them in order to save their lives is pretty different from deciding to steal a whole generation of children with a mind to imposing your own culture upon them, forcing them to become low paid servants and gradually breeding out a race.

Different kettle of fish, not that hard to get your head around.
 
No-one here is in a position to comment about what conditions were like back then so how are you sure it's not the same thing???
 
The stolen generation?????????
---- please---- dont call it a generation..... stop this whites owe blacks mentality too!
 
Myth No.1: The government ‘ rescued’ children from neglect
Not only neglected children were removed. For removing children from their family no proof of neglect was required. From 1865 on any child under 15 with an Aboriginal mother could be removed. And from 1897 on ‘all children of Aboriginal parentage and all Aborigines except mixed-race males over 16 years’ were subject to state control. Thus the state did not need any reason at all, just force, to remove children from their parents. Aborigines had no say in the removal decision and no avenue of appeal. The removal was without due process.

Myth No.2: The government cared for the children
The Queensland government hardly put its money where its mouth was. It deliberately and chronically under funded institutions caring for Aboriginal children. For example, the amount it paid for Aboriginal children usually was only 30% of the subsidy for a white child! Such discrimination did not only happen in the 19th century but was standard policy of all Queensland governments until the 1980s. The support paid was so little that all institutions, state-run or missions, continually struggled to make ends meet. Means commonly employed were to drastically cut the cost for food, maintenance and health, to use child labor ( well into the 1950s) to supplement income and to send children out to forage in the bush for food.

Myth No.3: The children were better off in institutions. The chronic and severe under funding of child support in state institutions and missions ( which received even less child support than the former) led to typically appalling conditions during the 20th century. For example,

*

Dormitories were usually either primitive, rough or simply bare shells of buildings, sometimes structurally unsafe, often with leaky roofs, offering little comfort and no warmth in cold winter nights;
*

They were overcrowded and under equiped and children more often than not had to sleep on earthen floors or share beds which often lacked mattresses;
*

Sanitary conditions were usually appalling , toilet and washing facilities were often missing or grossly below standard. Water was mostly scarce and often not clean;
*

The lack of hygiene resulted in dormitory children being prone to all kind of diseases: rampant skin infections, worms ( as many as 85% in some institutions) , Tb and gastric illnesses. The lack of shelter from rain and cold caused colds, influenza and pneumonia;
*

Malnutrition was chronic in government institutions, but even more so on missions ( in spite of their raising of funds from private sources they struggled to feed the children assigned to them). Typically milk was reserved for small children, fruit and vegetables were distributed irregularly and meat rations were unheard of or rare.

Thus the death rates of newly born babies, children under 5 and older children was very high. In fact conditions in settlements and missions were so bad and chronic that they would have provided reason for prosecution if the agent responsible had not been the Queensland government.

Myth No.4: Children in government care received a better education.
Even though legally schooling was compulsory for all children, Aboriginal children were commonly denied their right to education. Schooling in settlements was confined to 4 years, after which the government sent the children to work (which helped it to save costs). Schools in state settlements were inadequate, lacking decent rooms and equipment and teachers there received lower pay than their counterparts teaching white children. Schooling in missions was better because of their own fund raising and dedicated teachers.

Myth No.5: The standard of care was appropriate.
The Queensland government claims that conditions on settlements and in missions were in line with the standards of the time. However, the support the Queensland government paid for Aborigines in its ‘care’ was much less than what other states paid. For example, in 1911 the Queensland government paid only 10 shillings per Aborigine per week for support, which was less than half of what WA paid and less than 15% of what NSW paid and less than 4% of what Victoria paid ( their figures are , in pound, 1.10, 4 and 14 respectively).

**********************************************************************

How do we know what happened ?
The facts are taken from the Ros Kidd’s book “Black Lives – Government Lies”. Ros was the only historian who has had access to a large number of the government’s own files on its Aboriginal administration.

Who were the people who criticised the government?
They were government bureaucrats, who were held responsible for the welfare of Aborigines, such as e.g. heads of settlements, head masters of schools and medical doctors. Often also officials who had to investigate problems, such as circuit judges, government accountants or auditors. Others were heads of church missions who had to take the people assigned to them by the state but who were not sufficiently funded by the state.

How come this information is so different from what we know?
It is different because Aborigines were not educated enough and/or allowed to keep their own records ( not even their own saving account books). The government regulated every aspect of the Aborigines lives, including their education, jobs, housing, money, whom they could marry and when etc. Thus the government files on individual families are very extensive. It has a monopoly on this information. But since much of it is incriminating, the government does not like to have them known. Instead it has manufactured an image that it did everything for the best of the Aborigines.

Karin Chai, Ecumenical Social Justice Group Western Suburbs Inc, June 2002
 
No-one here is in a position to comment about what conditions were like back then so how are you sure it's not the same thing???

I think the facts and testaments of the victims speak for themselves.
 
My x of 4 year's mother was stolen gen. We talked about it a bit -which is realise is no basis for a solid opinion- but she never debunked any of the myths you mentioned.

I'm not doubting it, but i would recommend more than 1 source if you want to reasonably maintain such a passionate opinion on something.

Honestly, the wondrous lure of the moral high-ground is a beast to be watched closely
 
Getyourselfhigh200, you need to stop making it sound like the white settlers did what they did with malicious intent, if their intention was malicious, surely they would have done so in a far less expensive, public an inefficient manner, Ros Kidd is a known aboriginal activist and in the same vein as people like Michael Moore who present one sided arguments in the same way as the people they are trying to discredit quoting their sources as exclusive and restricted.

I know aboriginals have been horrifically treated, there is no argument against that. I would never expect them as a race to embrace white ideals, however, I find it very hard to accept that they take, and take, and take and refuse to give anything back. That’s not a white ideal, its simple human nature. Money is not going to undo the past, it’s a band aid measure at best. Sorry will not change the past, it’s a token gesture that can be made with no sincerity, even worse, patronizingly.

The stalemate that needs drastic action, dredging the past into the future will never solve a problem, it only creates further animosity and turns into a “you did that” and “you did this” argument. Sadly I just don’t think there is a solution in sight. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions, you can only ride one excuse for so long before that ticket expires and then you’re left standing alone, at the end of the line with only your feet to walk you home…
 
Why does it really matter what happened to aboriginies in the past???? who cares its all in the past- i dont complain about what happened to my long lost relatives 200 years ago either. The "stolen" generation..... comeon man it wasnt a generation it was a few hundred.... lets start treating aboriginies the same as everyone else. stop the free houses and crap.....!!! make them earn the dole instead of getting wasted and sniffing petrol.
 
^^ You do realise that it was acceptable to shoot blacks in places like Queensland as late as eighty-years ago? That is within living memory, it's not ancient history. You talk about the "free houses", while many black communities don't have the basic amenities like running water, schools, sports amenities, health services and libraries. If that situation existed in any comparable white communities there would be widespread outrage. But blacks, well no-one really cares, they have to forcibly lease out their land to receive services: we take for granted :|
 
Ok then swifty, provide some sources of information showing the positives aspects of the stolen generation if i'm presenting too bias.
 
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I think you cunts need to grow a fucking moustache

England was raped, pillaged & colonized by Vikings

Do you see the English begging Denmark for restitution? NO

HARDEN THE FUCK UP
 
I'm not trying to say that the australian leaders at the time sat down and said, right where going to stamp out aboriginal culture by resettling all their childeren into white families. If these actions where not malicious it still doesn't excuse the fact that govt after govt let this situation continue.

Basically i'm trying to get say that Australians need to accept the horrific actions our govt did to them and not try to dismiss them as merely "in the past". A professor at my university had her sister taken as part of the stolen generation and she always maintains that the last thing the aboriginal people in her community want is for white australians to feel guilty but rather recognition and awareness of the issue.

To quote malcolm fraser "An apology does not imply guilt. It implies a recognition that an injustice occurred. It also implies we have a will and a determination to try to do something about the fact that many people suffered as a result of that injustice"."
 
ValeTudo said:
I think you cunts need to grow a fucking moustache

England was raped, pillaged & colonized by Vikings

Do you see the English begging Denmark for restitution? NO


Yeah, because England being "raped, pillaged & colonized by Vikings" 1200 years ago is the same as what was still happening to the Aborigines until the 1970's-idiot...8)
 
Lets not fuck around here. Everyone, right wing or left, knows beyond reasonable doubt that Aussie government had one aim: assimilate black with white. So be it! That is colonization 101.

* Is destroying native culture fairly crap? Yes

* Should the government be sorry? Probably

* Did the benefit outweigh the loss? Clearly

* Does it really matter on the grand scale? No

The real question we should be asking:

What was the alternative? (to colonizing Australia by whatever means)

Let the fucking Dutch have it? Fuck
 
ValeTudo said:
* Did the benefit outweigh the loss? Clearly

The destruction of 40,000 years of continuous human culture and memory that will never be retrieved, some might suggest that that is worth more than two hundred years of unsustainable materialism that will inevitably leave the continent an uninhabitable desert. But, gee, we sure do have a lot of stuff! 8(

The real question we should be asking:

What was the alternative? (to colonizing Australia by whatever means)

What a crock, you've already pointed out that colonisation was inevitable. The question we should be asking is just how the brutality of colonialism has reverberated throughout the generations and just how we deal with that and begin some kind of a healing process. The historical reality is stark, yet as a country we have a hard time even owning up to it. Maybe the real question is why that is so.
 
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